Build Off vs. Responsible Reef Keeping - Disasters?

[davelin315]

I had a recent disaster in my school tank (Floris Reef Tank) and also have been doing things I probably should not in my daughter's tank. In the school tank, I lost all of my fish to a yet unknown culprit. The water parameters are fine, but the fish have all disappeared. In my daughter's tank, I rushed things and put fish in within a day of adding rock (the tank seems to be stable, but I haven't been able to do a lot of water testing on it and the one set I did do ended up giving me puzzling results). In looking through the build off forum, I see people doing things that are incredible design wise, but I also see people doing things the way I have, quickly. I know that I used to follow the old rule of thumb that when adding a fish, wait a week or so before adding another one. Is what we are doing with corals a good idea? I'm not sure. I know that in a 125 I was able to add a lot of corals at the same time because let's face it, a 1 inch frag in a 125 gallon plus system with a few hundred pounds of live rock is not going to crash a system, especially with lots of waste eating creatures in it like clams, zoos, xenia, etc. However, what's the impact in a 30 gallon or smaller tank? This is something I definitely can't answer because of my newness with nano reefs. Is the amount of rock that come with some inverts enough to offset any added bioload? Are we trying to "outcompete" one another in order to win a prize (it's only a $50 gift certificate which in the long run is not a whole lot to any reefer) instead of reef responsibly? I know that I'm trying to be as responsible as possible in my classroom tank, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that I can't afford a lot for it. In my daughter's tank, I'm not as responsible and am succumbing to the pressure of making it look good and be interesting for her. In the end, am I dooming my tank to failure? Whatever happened to the adage that you shouldn't add sps or acropora to a tank until it has been set up for at least a year, giving time for the sand bed to mature and the rock to fully develop into what it's going to? Is that simply outdated (I haven't had a reef for over two years up until now) or is it still the standard? Just my thoughts, I'd be curious to hear yours.

Dave

 

[Diana]

Well, I'm new to the whole reefkeeping hobby, and this nano tank is my first (salt) tank. I just happend to have set it up at the same time as the build-off, so my goal is not winning but just a "might-as-well do it" sorta thing. Being new to the reef i rushed things. Well, i didnt rush things, i just went a little faster than i probebly should have. My tank is only about 1 month old and is almost fully stocked with soft corals, inverts, and macro algae. This is not cus i want to get it going to win the contest (whoopee)... i just kinda did it. And everything is thriving. Why? I have no idea. I didnt do anything special, and i certianly did not follow the rules.

So, whos to say things wont work if they are done fast? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt. Maybe i just got lucky. There is undoubtedly a difference between doing things fast and doing them carelessly... and i think that is a big part of the contest. Trying to set up a working reef in a small amount of time, and having success.

Its going to be interesting to see how everyone's tanks turn out.

-Diana

 

[davelin315]

Hi Diana, I think you have a great looking tank! Nice job! What I was referring to is the tendency of tanks (at least large ones) to go through adjustment phases over their lifetimes. I don't know if this is a condition of only larger tanks or those with deep sand beds, so I'm curious. I know that diatom blooms and slime algae blooms often occur within the early life of a tank, but again, I don't know if this is simply a condition of a larger tank and the livestock and substrate/LR in it or if it's common to all tanks.

Anyway, keep your thoughts coming, I think that all opinions are worth hearing, and I'm kind of riding the fence on this one as I'm doing a "somewhat" careful approach to one and a rushed approach to another.

 

[Anonymous]

After a couple of decades of reefkeeping it's possible to get a feel for which animals can take less than perfect conditions without a lot of stress.

I stocked my nano a lot faster than I would recommend for anyone else but I only have easy to keep animals in there; Montipora, Caulastrea, a couple Damsel fry, Mushrooms, Ricordea, etc. I have nothing in there that requires a stable, pristine environment. The tank definately isn't suitable for a sensitive fish or coral and I don't yet have the nano skills to even attempt a fragile creature. I have always relied on water volume to cover my mistakes, I have no such backup in this case so I chose the most forgiving (aquacultured) creatures instead.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, in my case, I have to go slow. I'm having lighting problems and trying to get that straightened out before adding the more demanding animals. I don't care about winning, it's more for the pleasure of starting a new tank, and getting some new corals.

In the case of the missing fish.... I never bring home a fish (or anything else for that matter) that hasn't been in the store tanks for at least a week. Stress on stress = dead animals. That's just my personal observation for my situtation. Every time I've broken that rule, has ended with a costly purchase. I will however, on occassion, bring something home "IF" it is still in it's shipping bag.

I've only been in the hobby for a couple of years now and have really learned alot. And I'm trying to practice what I preach. Some of the more experienced partisipants are more able to "see" what is going on with their intries. I'm keeping a close eye on several.

 

[Anonymous]

heh

I'm still suprised at how green star polyps can actually be fairly delicate in comparison to some other corals.

I managed to nuke a relatively large colony (a totally encrusted 8" rock) by rushing things. - They were in before the seed sand was dumped and only the newest growth at the outermost edges of the colony survived (as in, a single file fringe of polyps...)

Sinularia, ricordia, zoanthids, mushrooms and other polyps pulled through totally unscathed. - Only the GSP got nuked. - Go figure!

 

[brandon4291]

Those are neat thoughts crew. I've always stocked the corals rather quickly because I tend to shy away from fish and other ammonia-producing animals in the overall design, so the chemical affect on the water is greatly lowered. In other words, for the common corals (mentioned above) that we use in nanos, a tank stocked full of them is not much different than a tank stocked fully with live rock and circulating water. By much different I mean the accumulation rates of detrimental wastes such as ammonia and NO3. Of course they will accumulate a little quicker in a coral-laden system, but it's not so quick that we can't enjoy the interim period in between water changes and tank servicing and not so quick as to require a 'cycling' period considering the amounts of pre-seeded LR and sand we typically use in the nano design.

I think certain stockings would skew this trend and make system acclimation more relied upon: anemones that require bulk feedings, tubastreas of the same nature, similar corals, larger inverts that will also require proteinaceous matter of significant size and fish. The common corals we use also produce ammonia through standard metabolic pathways, but it's very token as some of the energy needs are also provided by photosynthesis, which in turn fixes nitrogen and some associated waste products going on "next door" in the polyp. In essence, I see corals as tiny little waste producers that also actually use a portion of their own wastes in photosynthesis...the small amounts of protein matter are usually pulled directly from suspension in the water column or may be provided by direct feedings from time to time. When it's all said and done, I find corals to exude very little nitrogenous waste (not fixed by photosynthesis)...such that a tiny (but densely stocked) coral ecosystem can run for weeks with very little little systemic nitrogen in between water changes.

Regarding the quick stocking ability of the nano reef, it's interesting to note that the only thing lacking bacterial colonization in a brand new setup are the walls of the tank and the filtration, whatever that may be. The live sand and Live rock are so porous, and so alive with bacteria on expansive surface area, that the addition of most corals (even in bulk) is simply not enough to stress the tank with unoxidized ammonia waste loads. The tiny net amounts they put out are simply processed with the current seeded material... I think it's great what the buildoff is generating, but I do agree any approach needs to be well thought-out and researched as best as possible. I think the addition of fish should be correctly balanced and timed for the system particulars...

Open for another discussion is the angle I hold on fish in the nano: I say it's the #1 cause for concern for system longevity excluding hardware issues like heating/lights/pumps. Not that it throws a system into a downward spiral or anything, but it sure changes the nitrogen and waste balances to a significant degree and this also governs maintenance schedules and system balance. The sytem will run temporarily without attention to these fine details! But check back in a while...the clean (non eutrophic) system must have had this detail or it wouldn't have survived to this condition. That's what I can't wait to measure in the buildoff, true attention to longevity rather than the quick insertion of organism.

Although it is done all the time and done well, adding fish to a smaller nano is really the variable that affects things most IMO...without fish I see the systems run pretty much like they would with just live rock and circulated water.

 

[Floris Reef Tank]

A lot of interesting thoughts being expressed here (backed up by experience and science), and a lot of answers to some of my questions! Like I said before, on the one hand, the tank that is being created by my class is more well-thought out than the one in my home, and it's interesting to find out that fish seem to be what really throw systems out of whack.

For me, however, keeping a reef without fish is not an option. Although I do not keep reefs that are true to nature in that they house only fish that would naturally be in the same area as the corals, I do find that what attracted me to the hobby in the first place, the fish, are something that I don't want to dispense with.

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming. This is not meant a jab at anyone, as I am doing some of the things I don't think I should be doing. It's just curiosity on my part over what others think.

 

[Rikko]

I'd be very interested to find out how many folks who entered the buildoff are actual nano people and others who just thought it would be a lot of fun. Nanos definitely need a different mindset which I don't think is as present as it probably ought to be.

I'm definitely not of the nano mindset - the smallest tank I EVER had was a 20 gallon, and that was freshwater. This 8 gallon nano is far more delicate than any tank I've ever had, but I'm certain to underestimate how fragile things are going to be. "A fish" ends up meaning a whole lot more than "a fish" in our main tanks.... Should prove fascinating.

I definitely don't plan to have more than a fish or two in there, and probably something that doesn't roam much (citron goby or the like)... Even then that's pretty taxing.

Either way, once deadline hits (ie. like 4 days.. yikes!) my tank won't have anything but live rock. Corals and fish will have to be eased in, and even then I'm expecting to have to do pretty mega water changes.

 

[brandon4291]

Great points Rikko. Floris it would be correct to say that coral-only advocates are the vast minority! Honestly I like fish as well, they really complete the layout and species inclusion (along with character and motion to the aquarium) for a nano reef. I am just used to working with very small systems that house the same corals, and this mindset (low nitrogenous waste system) has emerged as a way to get the least work with the longest life. Aspects of maintenance can also balance fish inclusion quite well, or the use of equipment like skimmers which also has the appeal of added waste support.

Things would be much more forgiving in a 5-10+ gallon system, and if I had a nano of that size I would certainly have some fish. I'd have my eye on something Matt Wandell referenced in an earlier thread, a tiny gobie- Trimma sp. comes to mind. I'd still enjoy the natural/non-skimmed approach and a few of those guys would be an interesting and nearly-clean crew.

 

[davelin315]

Still me (Floris Reef Tank is my school log on). For me, nanos are basically a new thing as well. Although the more I think about it, the more I think I had some nanos before (had a 29 long ago with various shrooms and softies in it that began my first foray into corals, had a 5 gallon on my nightstand that housed a cleaner, had a 10 gallon quarantine that ended up having condylactus anemones in it, all of these things were over 10-15 years ago). Anyway, none of those tanks were ever done with any skill on my part, or for that matter, much information, either. When I really got into it, I had a 55 and then upgraded to a 125. This is my first foray back into a small tank (I now have 2 15s running that are the exact same set-ups) and am learning how sensitive the tanks can be. For instance, just keeping the specific gravity of the tank constant over a weekend is difficult since I'm not at school then and don't want a complex system.

Anyway, despite my experience and knowledge when it comes to larger reef tanks, I'm definitely not in the know on the nuances of smaller reefs. In the past, adding a fish to my 125 was not a big deal. I had so many different animals in the tank that would "eat" the waste product that I was never concerned (from xenia and zooanthids to clams) with overburdening the tank. Now that I think about it, a mated pair of shrimp releasing their fry into the tank now could prove lethal as the offspring died off or actually began to grow.

By the way, Brandon, you speak of a 5-10+ gallon tank as being more forgiving, just how small a tank do you have?

 

[Anonymous]

I'd be very interested to find out how many folks who entered the buildoff are actual nano people and others who just thought it would be a lot of fun. Nanos definitely need a different mindset which I don't think is as present as it probably ought to be.

<Raises hands> I started out with a 2.5 bow front to house a sand crab and hermit brought home from vacation. Then up graded to a 20L, then added a 29 and another 2.5, in less than a year's time. I have since down graded to 2 tanks, aminly because I didn't like how the looked. Now I only have a 2.5 and a fairly new drilled 29 w/ 11g of sump. (Does that still count as a nano?), oh and my 10g build off tank.

 

[brandon4291]

If I told you it would sound insane.

I used to post a swarm of pico reef setups for the last few years, but recently have dwindled down somewhat to just maintaining the one favorite design that proved the most stable. I think my most recent thread is a few pages back, run a search on brandon429 using our search engine and several will come up for sure from the old days. I'll also PM you a link as well, glad to have your input on our forum.

A good example though is my avatar picture, it's a 1 gallon betta-bowl vase that lasted for over two years until an AC failure killed it and all other reefs in my lame rental house at the time.

B

 

[davelin315]

I looked through those nanos and it's pretty amazing what you did with so little water. Seeing a child's hand in there really put things into perspective, as did the can in front of the tank. At first I was thinking, wow, look at how huge those zooanthids are!

I was thinking about using a tiny system in a jar as a reward for kids who were doing really well (they could maybe leave it on their desk or something) but wasn't sure from your threads what if any filtration you had on the flower vase. It would seem that a simple air stone would move water pretty well in such a system (maybe use a lift tube that has an output cap on either end with one end near the bottom? - used one of these before to siphon off hatches of fish and shrimp before), but I couldn't tell if you had any PHs in there.

 

[brandon4291]

It's really really neat that you have access to display reefs in a classroom. The only thing better than watching the natural progress of the reef is watching the interested faces of those who observe them, some for the first and only time. Children are all interested in the reef aquarium, it can really fix and focus the attention in a group setting I would think.

I have small powerheads in the other aquariums, the vase is the only bubbler. Congratulations on your Floris thread, it is very popular and was interesting reading to watch the system evolve.

If you'd ever like to experiment I'd heartily recommend using a hot plate/magnetic stirring box from the chem lab (without the heat!). The rotating ceramic bar has the advantage of being power driven without physical connection to the energy source, very handy for the pico reef.
I can envision building a simple raised floor with a cutaway UGF filter. Lr rubble and rocks/coral would sit on it but under it is a medium-spin stirring bar, working just like a powerhead moving water through the aquarium. This would allow you to seal a lid with no cable penetrance, zero topoff. The small airspace will cycle oxygen for quite some time given it is refreshed from time to time (opened) and temps are usually cool and stable in a school. Much could be done with that approach I would think, but haven't tried it yet.

 

[Anonymous]

It's funny that you posted this, I was just having thoughts along the same lines. I must agree with Brandon on the fish thing, though. Compared to corals, fish do need to be added slowly, and their size and feeding habits (and potential growth) need to be thought out in advance. My assumption being that most of us involved in this build-off must certainly already understand this, my assumption being that most of us have experience already, have kept both salt and freshwater tanks for years, (some of us still do keep fresh, I'm sure) and freshwater tanks are always overstocked too quickly until we learn better ...my assumption being that we are all borderlining here, some of us will do a better job of it than others, and some will just get lucky, and some will not. Life is just one big frikken roulette wheel, eh?
That said, it is more difficult for me to apply what I know to a much smaller tank than what I am normally used to...so I am truly learning as I go. OMG, I feel like a rank beginner... 8O
Fortunately, I do understand the fish thing, and I plan to actually only add ONE fish to my nano, so the little bastard better not die on me But I have never added corals so quickly to a tank. I must admit to being a tad nervous about the whole thing, and I plan to test water frequently and do waterchanges above and beyond what I would normally need to, in order to try and make up for the speed. Hopefully, this will work :lol:
It seems to me to be common sense to add frags, as opposed to grown out colonies, and to add species that do not require daily feedings....of course, I have already added a coral and an anemone that require daily feedings, so I'm obviously NOT listening to my own better judgement!

One thing I am happy about, is that a small tank means waterchanges have become much easier. Something tells me it's going to be a long wet summer :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

It's funny that you posted this, I was just having thoughts along the same lines. I must agree with Brandon on the fish thing, though. Compared to corals, fish do need to be added slowly, and their size and feeding habits (and potential growth) need to be thought out in advance.

This is why I'm leaning heavily in the no-fish direction for my tank Granted I lose some cool points, but hey I'd rather not have to worry about feeding fish

Something tells me it's going to be a long wet summer :lol:

Are you going to post pictures of this in your thread?? (or privately send me them??)

 

[Anonymous]

I plan to post pics of my reflection in white boxer shorts, like spoonie did in the gen. reefkeeping forum. I will not be sporting the nice bulge, however. Hey, I'm an innie!!
Poor guy may never be back, I think we embarassed him to hell.



And I plan to PM you pics of PitPat in his lacy undergirdle as he is fixing drywall down in the Sump...

And I will prolly Photoshop a nice pic of Knucklehead's head onto Guys' rubberducky, just for fun and entertainment and because I can.

 

[Anonymous]

*NORF*

I'll be sure to wait...
wait to delete any PMs I get!