Keeping sponges in a nano
- Thread starter fishfanatic2
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Ornamental sponges are iffy in any systems let alone a nano. Almost all of the 'tree' sponges I have seen ended up wasting away within a few months - these are filter feeders for the most part and getting the right type, size and quantity of food to keep them alive is daunting. Additionally I woudl say half the sponges I see for sale have some necrotic/dying areas from being exposed to air - most of these will die over a long period of time if they have ever been exposed to air. It may look fine to you but it's slowly falling apart inside.
Having said that I know people that have kept some sponges like the yellow ball/moon sponge for years and some have been lucky enough to get the brilliant blue haliclona sponge which is partly photosynthetic. I would be content with the small amounts you get on your live rock.
One last thing sponges have all sorts of nasty toxins which in a small tank could irritate other inhabitants severely - if you are going to keep one I reccomend you run carbon frequently , keep up on water changes and observe how other corals etc respond to it being in sich close proximity.
HTH
Having said that I know people that have kept some sponges like the yellow ball/moon sponge for years and some have been lucky enough to get the brilliant blue haliclona sponge which is partly photosynthetic. I would be content with the small amounts you get on your live rock.
One last thing sponges have all sorts of nasty toxins which in a small tank could irritate other inhabitants severely - if you are going to keep one I reccomend you run carbon frequently , keep up on water changes and observe how other corals etc respond to it being in sich close proximity.
HTH
There is a lot of misinformation out there regarding sponges, such as the fact that they all have nasty toxins that could wipe out your entire tank yadda yadda yadda... While this is partly true, most of these nasty culprits are photosynthetic species commonly found in the exposed zone of a reef. Unfortunately, these are also the ones you'll most commonly (if not always) find at the LFS.
The types you want are cryptic sponges, meaning they are found in areas of little or no light. They prefer lower flows and often thrive in aquariums where their needs are met (which usually consists of an area of low flow and a good diet--DT's phyto works wonders). Some of the most impressive sponge growth I have has been in nanos of various sizes.
I would suggest staying away from tree type sponges and most of the ones you can order or buy. The ones that hitchike in on LR are the best, often coming in white, blue, or even red and orange. Given a little time, they will often begin to spread all over the rock and dominate small areas. One of the single best books I have read on sponges, their natural history and biology, as well as their care in captivity, is Steve Tyree's book about them. He also aquacultures cryptic species of sponges and tunicates...and you can even order some starter packs if you want to give your tank a good seeding with multiple species. You can check it all out at www.dynamicecomorphology.com
The types you want are cryptic sponges, meaning they are found in areas of little or no light. They prefer lower flows and often thrive in aquariums where their needs are met (which usually consists of an area of low flow and a good diet--DT's phyto works wonders). Some of the most impressive sponge growth I have has been in nanos of various sizes.
I would suggest staying away from tree type sponges and most of the ones you can order or buy. The ones that hitchike in on LR are the best, often coming in white, blue, or even red and orange. Given a little time, they will often begin to spread all over the rock and dominate small areas. One of the single best books I have read on sponges, their natural history and biology, as well as their care in captivity, is Steve Tyree's book about them. He also aquacultures cryptic species of sponges and tunicates...and you can even order some starter packs if you want to give your tank a good seeding with multiple species. You can check it all out at www.dynamicecomorphology.com
I have had experience with one red ball sponge and one orange tree sponge. I can recommend them for larger tanks, as mine were in my 80 gallon until I tore it down, the problem seems to be at least for me, that they are always developing a thin layer of algae on their surface, even when there was none anywhere else in the system to be found. I used them to block some of the flailing tentacles of bta's that were situated between them, as a sort of boundary, and the sponges were immune to it's nematocysts. They persevered for about 8-10 months, but showed little growth, even despite regular additions of phyto. I don't really know how well they would fare in a nano due to the limited amount of food available to them.
Joey
Joey
I guess LR encrusting sponges do well in almost any tank size. I picked up a piece of button polyp rock the size of my fist the other day and discovered the entire bottom of the rock had been covered by a translucent brown sponge. I also have some white sponge and black sponges that seem to do well in my tank, and the bonus is that they come for free. They live in shaded areas under rocks, however, and are not really a decorative piece. The tree types offered for sale are really not suited well at all for the majority of reef tanks, and not at all in a nano.
Skylsdale - so you like that book by Tyree? I was thinking of picking it up sometime in the future. I'd like to do a cryptic filtration zone on one of my tanks in the future but haven't found many real world implementations of it. I have encrusting sponges galore in my sump and refugium in low light areas.
technoshaman, the book is pretty good. It has a lot of physiology and just plain natural history about sponges. The latter part of the book goes into different models that suggest how to create cryptic and semi-cryptic areas within the main tank. He talks a little about the EG (environmental gradient) system, but Living Sponges was written during the first phase of his EG testing so there wasn't much "conclusive" evidence. In all honesty I wasn't really interested in sponges before I read the book(the EG was sold out, so I bought the sponge one for something to read) but now have an entirely newfound respect for them--they truly are living filters. It doesn't just tell you how to set up a system to use them, but by reading it you understand what makes them tick and what they need. Knowing this alone helps a TON if you were to ever want to experiment with such a zone or system.
While we're on the topic of sponges, I have a couple questions. Today I had to rearrange some of the rockwork in my 20H to make room for a Turbinaria colony, and when I picked up a small piece of rock I noticed an encrusting deep purple sponge slightly larger than a half dollar. A month ago when I moved the tank, there was no sponge on this particular rock. I don't have Tyree's book, but just what are they typical growth rates of sponges? If they start to grow on the lower face of rocks, out of view, do they ever creep out onto the lit surfaces where they can be seen? I was surprized when I saw it and recognized what it was, and I would love to see it grow out into the light...that color was unusual.
There aren't any--it all depends on available food, water quality and conditions, how well needs are being met, etc.
Cryptic sponges generally stay in the dark and shadowed areas on the rockwork (hence the reason it grew so well under your rock). Exposing it to direct light will most likely shock and possibly kill it. I would maybe turn the rock so you can get a better view of the sponge, but still keep it shadowed or out of pretty direct light.
How do these cryptic species react when they are moved to a spot in the tank with a different flow rate? Anything to watch out for there? Also, is it possible to propagate the encrusting species by allowing them to encrust two rocks, then pulling the rocks apart, thus splitting the sponge into a couple pieces?
It all depends on the sponge, etc--it's impossible to give a general rule regarding them. Keep it from being blasted and it should be ok, although I would still try to keep it pretty shaded and in an indirect area. Lower flow rates actually forces teh sponge to create more of its own current to catch food, requiring more energy and food, thus more growth. Something to keep in mind.
You could "propogate" it like you suggested, although growth rates will vary. Feeding DT's and similar foods will definitely aid in the health of your sponge.
You could "propogate" it like you suggested, although growth rates will vary. Feeding DT's and similar foods will definitely aid in the health of your sponge.
malakai,
Sponges are very primitive, and you can cut and place new little pieces as often as you want. They should be able to survive in just about any light, but might get out competed in very bright light. The main problem with keeping a sponge is the problem of feeding it. Much like many of the aphotosynthetic corals, sponges must get all of their nutrients from small particles in the water column. Furthermore, many species of sponges need smaller particles of food than can be fed by the aquarist. In fact, many species of sponge will only filter bacteria out of the water. This is one reason that you will experience a bloom of sponge followed by a drop off of sponge. In all actuality, you are experiencing the same bloom and drop off of bacteria in your water column. Generally DT's and such are too big for these sponges, and will do them no good, (although they are great for propagating other things.) I hope this helps.
Mike
Sponges are very primitive, and you can cut and place new little pieces as often as you want. They should be able to survive in just about any light, but might get out competed in very bright light. The main problem with keeping a sponge is the problem of feeding it. Much like many of the aphotosynthetic corals, sponges must get all of their nutrients from small particles in the water column. Furthermore, many species of sponges need smaller particles of food than can be fed by the aquarist. In fact, many species of sponge will only filter bacteria out of the water. This is one reason that you will experience a bloom of sponge followed by a drop off of sponge. In all actuality, you are experiencing the same bloom and drop off of bacteria in your water column. Generally DT's and such are too big for these sponges, and will do them no good, (although they are great for propagating other things.) I hope this helps.
Mike
"At Discovery Bay in Jamaica, unarmored cells (phytoplankton) represented the largest percentage (70 to 80%) of the resolvable particles that were filtered and consumed by sponges. They ranged in size from 5 to 50 microns and were composed of flagellates (plankton with tails) that were soft-bodied and did not possess armor. This includes the phytoplankton which are the major element of planktonic biomass in tropical waters. Demospongiae located in Discovery Bay Jamaica were very efficient at removing these phytoplankton of unarmored cells from teh water column. A total of 86.5% of the unarmored cells were filtered from the water travelling through the sponges. This high efficiency rate could theoretically make available 16.2% of the potential particulate organic carbon found within the water column. The unresolvable organic matter contained most of the organic carbon present in the pelagic seawater. If you ignore this potentially available microscopic matter, unarmored cells accounted for 83% of the resolvable carbon consumed (Reiswig 1971)." The Porifera (Living Sponges): Their Biology, Physiology and Natural Filtration Integration
Funny...maybe someone should let the sponges know they're not supposed to eat this stuff? Now I don't know everything about DT's, but I would think that it has at least some merit in sponge diet. Steve Tyree uses it as part of his feeding regimen in aquaculturing cryptic species and it seems to be doing great. Not to say that sponges don't eat bacteria, but to say they don't eat phytoplankton at all is just ridiculous. For whoever is interested, here is some info on tropical sponge feeding capabilities:
Detritus: 2.5-200 (microns) 41.9% (retention rate)
Armored Cells (fungi, diatoms, dinoflagellates): 5-100 48.7%
Phytoplankton (unarmored cells): 5-50 86.5%
Bacteria (small; size is cubic): 0.028 96.1%
Bacteria (large; size is cubic): 0.151 96.1%
Dissolved Organics (unresolvable): <1.5 35.2% [/b]
Skylsdale,
Wow, I commend you for doing your research. I wish everyone who tried to keep reefs would put as much effort into learning about what they are keeping as you obviously have.
Unfortunately, your 1971 was a long time ago, and we have learned a lot more about sponges since that time. It is true that most sponges can ingest some larger forms of both zooplankton and phytoplankton; they do not tend to be able to continuously sustain themselves on this sort of diet. In fact Marta Ribes did a study in 1999 on a fairly prolific species of sponge, Dysidea avara. She found that, "Dysidea avara obtained 85% of its ingested carbon from the fraction smaller than 5 µm and 15% from the fraction larger than 5 µm." Furthermore, "prokaryotes contributed 74 ± 14% of the total ingested carbon, pico- and nanoeucaryotes contributed 11 ± 3%." Thus, for this particular fairly common sponge, between 60% and 98% of its nutrition comes from prokaryotic cells organisms not found in DTs.
Of course, these numbers do not hold true for all sponges. In fact, sponges are one of the major groups of organisms about which very little is known. I guess it is pretty hard to find funding to study something most people think of as a bathing novelty. 8O
You should check out the paper I quoted from:
Ribes M, Coma R, Gili JM
Natural diet and grazing rate of the temperate sponge Dysidea avara (Demospongiae, Dendroceratida) throughout an annual cycle
Marine Ecology Progress Series, 176:179-190
It is a really neat study, and I do not do it complete justice. Ribes also states that at certain times of year Dysidea avara. can use the size of plankton found in DTs for up to 26% of its food. These numbers correspond to some extent with your numbers. However, I am not sure what "feeding capabilities" means. Many sponges can filter particles that they cannot ingest, and must actually spend energy to expel.
So far, I have really enjoyed this thread. I think that it is really neat for some of us to disagree, and still be smart and motivated enough to look through scholarly information to back up our opinions. Furthermore, these are some of the same arguments that are happening in the scientific community without resolve, and we are doing this for fun. Not to mention, when I was looking at that paper, I also came across a couple of good papers on the theoretical use of sponges to fight pollution. What a neat topic. Thanks.
Mike
Wow, I commend you for doing your research. I wish everyone who tried to keep reefs would put as much effort into learning about what they are keeping as you obviously have.
Unfortunately, your 1971 was a long time ago, and we have learned a lot more about sponges since that time. It is true that most sponges can ingest some larger forms of both zooplankton and phytoplankton; they do not tend to be able to continuously sustain themselves on this sort of diet. In fact Marta Ribes did a study in 1999 on a fairly prolific species of sponge, Dysidea avara. She found that, "Dysidea avara obtained 85% of its ingested carbon from the fraction smaller than 5 µm and 15% from the fraction larger than 5 µm." Furthermore, "prokaryotes contributed 74 ± 14% of the total ingested carbon, pico- and nanoeucaryotes contributed 11 ± 3%." Thus, for this particular fairly common sponge, between 60% and 98% of its nutrition comes from prokaryotic cells organisms not found in DTs.
Of course, these numbers do not hold true for all sponges. In fact, sponges are one of the major groups of organisms about which very little is known. I guess it is pretty hard to find funding to study something most people think of as a bathing novelty. 8O
You should check out the paper I quoted from:
Ribes M, Coma R, Gili JM
Natural diet and grazing rate of the temperate sponge Dysidea avara (Demospongiae, Dendroceratida) throughout an annual cycle
Marine Ecology Progress Series, 176:179-190
It is a really neat study, and I do not do it complete justice. Ribes also states that at certain times of year Dysidea avara. can use the size of plankton found in DTs for up to 26% of its food. These numbers correspond to some extent with your numbers. However, I am not sure what "feeding capabilities" means. Many sponges can filter particles that they cannot ingest, and must actually spend energy to expel.
So far, I have really enjoyed this thread. I think that it is really neat for some of us to disagree, and still be smart and motivated enough to look through scholarly information to back up our opinions. Furthermore, these are some of the same arguments that are happening in the scientific community without resolve, and we are doing this for fun.
Not to mention, when I was looking at that paper, I also came across a couple of good papers on the theoretical use of sponges to fight pollution. What a neat topic. Thanks. Mike
Touche Mike. :wink:
Yeah, that study was done a while ago but it was from the only book I have on the subject, which I haven't read for a couple years. My point was simply that sponges can use certain types of phytoplankton for food, and at certain times it seems that sponges utilize quite a bit of unarmored cells for nutrients, energy, etc. The main problem for aquarists, it seems, is providing a size small enough for the sponges we keep.
That's an interesting subject, possibly similar to the work being done with bivalves in "cleaning" water? It was actually Steve Tyree's work with cryptic zones in captive systems that got me interested in the topic, and led me to actually purchasing a book about the natural history of sponges (which is what I quoted the above information from). It's amazing to me that more and more people aren't studying and experimenting with these types of natural filtration models. When you get down to it, the sponge is literally a living filter--why aren't we pursuing this more avidly? I guess there's always a hesitence in breaking away from the norm.
Yeah, that study was done a while ago but it was from the only book I have on the subject, which I haven't read for a couple years. My point was simply that sponges can use certain types of phytoplankton for food, and at certain times it seems that sponges utilize quite a bit of unarmored cells for nutrients, energy, etc. The main problem for aquarists, it seems, is providing a size small enough for the sponges we keep.
That's an interesting subject, possibly similar to the work being done with bivalves in "cleaning" water? It was actually Steve Tyree's work with cryptic zones in captive systems that got me interested in the topic, and led me to actually purchasing a book about the natural history of sponges (which is what I quoted the above information from). It's amazing to me that more and more people aren't studying and experimenting with these types of natural filtration models. When you get down to it, the sponge is literally a living filter--why aren't we pursuing this more avidly? I guess there's always a hesitence in breaking away from the norm.
Very interesting stuff guys.....I might note as a caveat to that older study that the predominant thinking at the time was that any particle captured by a filter feeder MUST be eaten and be nutritious to the animal. Then some people showed that filter feeders would catch plastic balls of the correct dimension and shape and ingest them (even though they clearly have no nutritional value) and would ALSO catch but then expel as "pseudofeces" particles of a pea and flour food. They didn't digest it at all even though they captured it. I don't have time to search for the exact study....Rob Toonen mentioned it one time in an article I read.
Certain sponges certainly do well with out any kind of direct feeding of course....my tank at home has recently exploded with sponges in my fuge.
Certain sponges certainly do well with out any kind of direct feeding of course....my tank at home has recently exploded with sponges in my fuge.
I agree with the other posters that it 'depends on species'. I've had very good luck with the photosynthetic blue sponges in my 7 gallon nano. Unfortunately, I don't know the species, but it is not the tubular one but grows in flat sheets. It is very blue and can have a waxy surface.
Sponges tend to do better away from direct current and light and my personal belief is that they should be close to the sand bed as possible to filter out all the phyto/nanoplankton that well established sand beds can produce.
Sponges tend to do better away from direct current and light and my personal belief is that they should be close to the sand bed as possible to filter out all the phyto/nanoplankton that well established sand beds can produce.
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