ok now

[kimichan]

here it is. i'm getting a 27 gallon eclipse. my current 10 gal will be the sump. my mandarin stays. hahaha. tough rocks if 27 isn't enough, cause the mandarin will need to cope. i'll just figure out something to feed it. here's the question. i'm going to have 2 powerheads blowing water from the sump into the reef, kinda like how bleeding blue did it, but with 2 powerheads. i'll have the maxijet with 295 gph, and another powerhead, most likely under 300 gallons. questions:

what size tube will I need for an overflow into the sump. Bleeding blue, you are the guru, so I'd appreciate your help here. For those of you who don't know, Mike Mutalipassi knows a lot about rigging stuff like this.
Also, where do I get the proper bulkheads and tubing.
finally, since the maxijet1200 has a .5inch exit hole, should I just plumb a .5 inch tube into the tank, or for some reason should I make the tube larger than this. .5 inch would be a cinch, but let me know what you think. Also, bleeding blue, i'm stealing your overflow box idea inside of my tank, so here is your due credit.
Matt wandell, if you were wondering why i am forking out the bling bling all of the sudden, it's because it just got necessary, i.e. i can't go to the store without spending $30. bling. the tank will be plexiglass, so drilling won't be a problem, and i'll have at least 150 watts under the hood, a 2x55 pc and a 2x28 most likely. that's 166. fo shizzle. let me know asap guys.

 

[cal3v]

He won't eat food you feed it if he doesn't feel like it, its not like he will be forced to eat or starve, because more often than not if he runs out of pods he'd rather starve than eat what you feed him. Anyways that out of the way, make sure to have lots of macro for the pods to munch on and also make lots of pod piles in addition to the refugium. The mandarin may do ok, but it'd have much higher chances in an established tank, I think that definitely will make a difference. Good luck.

 

[brandon4291]

Another item to consider is the efficiency of driving water from the refugium to the tank. You could prefilter yes, but this theoretically catches detritus and will add to the nitrate consistency. without a prefilter, it is eliminating the chance of any live organisms entering the main display let alone copepods and other arthropods/worms that would favor a mandarin environment. The refugium could be such a potential place to feed your mandarins naturally. The powerhead would grind them up, so I pose to push it up from the display and into the refugium then back via overflow.

Kimichan I think the same way about madarins ever since I saw my LFS pair that would always take warmed bloodworms. They were fatter than copes would ever get them! I believe our problem with mandarins in the nano is the ratio of individuals that remain true to behavioral lineage. That is, certain mandarin specimens will choose to feed outside the norm on a regular basis (feeding response elicited through other factors such as warm smelly bloodworms) and most will not, as the stimulus of a tiny escaping copepod is the only mechanism that gets these guys to feed regular enough to stay healthy and fat. They did it with seahorses that were selectively bred for securing alternate protein sources and now these are easy to get from oceanrider, it has a genetic basis and IIRC its called tolerance of variance.

But one other thing, your chances of randomly purchasing a specimen with this behavior from a LFS is very rare, and not worth playing the $$ betting game (and the ethics of keeping a fish you know will die) if you are a smart better.
I think the best chance for success is waiting and searching on the internet or in person for someone who has one or two trained, then offer them the dolla and see if they accept. Or, design the system in such a way as to provide the copepods they need which will require most likely the perfect refugium and regular additions of cope starter packs from IPSF or the like. Our friend Milton built a 20 long like this and I fully back him, I think it will work.

Come back Milton!

 

[kimichan]

what is prefilter?
what is detritus?
I understand your point brandon, and it is a good one, but I'm not sure i'll be able to put a ten gallon sump on top of a 27 gallon tank. i don't exactly have a monterey bay aquarium for an apartment. underneath just works better all around, so if there is a way to do this, let me know. i could do it next to I guess, but this would still be hard. so if you or anyone else has any suggestions, please let me know asap. also, where can I get the bulkheads i'll need, along with the 2 inch tubing or whatever?

 

[brandon4291]

BTW, I think if you packed a 10g with much much LR and caulerpa, and fed it with food pellets separate from the main tank it would keep a finicky mandarin going in between bi-monthly restockings from a pod order company. GARF and IPSF (sp?) are two examples of places that sell micro-detritivore kits, and your test of the 10g refugium will be one of surface area for them to hide and reproduce in, and one of high-quality food (not detritus but whole pellets) availability. Last but not least, uptake rate of the fish.

 

[kimichan]

what are these acronyms? where can I get copepods that are ready to hatch or be raised? will a maxi-jet 1200 really kill all the pods and stuff?

 

[brandon4291]

Plumbing it with bulkheads would be a hassle I agree, check out Brooklyn Johnny's post to see how he just has his refugium up on the shelf above the display tank, dripping down via gravity into it. Seen a few setups like this but never tried one, looks and sounds like it works well.

Don't skimp on the lighting for a refugium either. One of your primary goals along with surface area to house copepods is to get macro algae to grow like mad, and strong lighting via 40+ watts PC daylight is where you need to be.

Also, if it were me Id leave the sandbed out of the refugium. For one it creates a dust detritus cloud that flows over the whole tank when you prune the caulerpa. It is also easier to clean your tank thoroughly, and this will allow for heavier feeding in general which gives you the ability to carry larger bioloads as in more fish or ones that eat heavily. if you can't get reducing characters out of a sandbed, it can be a hassle to have one in a nano for the long haul. I use them because I like the way they look and I don't have to feed all that heavily.

 

[brandon4291]

heres some great places:

http://www.aquaticfoods.com/

http://lfscultures.com


http://www.ipsf.com/ <<<<-----sells mandarin food copes

Detritus is the left over waste of once-living materials in various stages of decomposition. It is the brown dirt and crud that collects in live rock crevices, and is what makes the sandstorm effect each time you stir up a reef tank. Ideally, it should be exported in whole form or dealt with internally, by careful stocking and light feeding of the system. When accumulated, it is a point-source of nitrate as protein matter in the detritus is degraded by bacteria/protists and eventually reduced to ammonia in a process called deamination IIRC (stands for breaking the amino bonding of proteins). From there we recall the nitrogen cycle that oxidizes the ammonia compound into first nitrite and then nitrate, all good food for algae at some point. try to remove the dissolved proteins (as in skimming) and the particulate proteins (as in detritus) instead of letting it accumulate and fuel the algae we work against.

 

[kimichan]

i love you brandon. my girlfriend is jealous, but i just straight love you man.

 

[brandon4291]

okay then, assess the situation and see if she has a single friend who would also put up with reef babble and observation at all hours of the day. if she has an acquaintance that meets or exceeds this criteria, Id really like to meet her and I will love you the same. If she requires continual protein input from expensive Italian places and extended metabolic activity in the form of rigorous dancing, we may not be a match. Is talking like this the reason I have no friends>

 

[cal3v]

BTW an above tank refugium would work well if you drill the tank, and just have water pumped up and drain straight down into the tank below. Also you could possibly use a rubbermaid container if cutting out a hole for that would be easier.

 

[Anonymous]

Daniel,
Keep in mind that the return pump will lose gallons per hour rating because it's fighting gravity. You should have a minimum of 10 times the tank volume per hour flowing in the main tank, so a powerhead of at least 250 gph, plus the return pump, should suffice. Two 150 gph powerheads in the main tank would be better than one large one.

As for that overflow idea: that was mine, son. You may want to dig up an old thread titled "Overflow idea for a nano" with pics of it. Mine is epoxied while Mike's is removable, but I've never had a reason to remove it.

 

[kimichan]

oh, well mike never gave you due credit. also, i WILL use 2 maxi jet 1200's. I don't want any stagnant areas. so the questions now are:

1. How large of tubing do I need in and out of the tank.
2. How accurate is Brandon's assessment of the blended copepod situation from the fuge into the tank. matt and mike, you both use this apparently poor system, and both of your reefs look sick. (brandon, when I say sick, i mean radical. i am only 19, so i figure you are using vocab like tubular and rad and the bomb, which is why my "new stuff sick" confused you. sorry) both of your reefs look good, so what's up?

brandon, i think only men are like you. maybe you should develop interests in things like the show "friends" or maybe even clothes shopping. as long as i do things like this occasionally, my girlfriend stays happy. you could also act fruity and act is if you ONLY enjoy sitcoms and shopping. i have a feeling your plether of reefs would throw off any pretense of you being anything other than what you are. nevertheless, rock on dude. 8)

 

[Bleeding Blue]

Hey kids. Sorry I didn't chime in. I was in S. E. Asia. Duty calls.

First, I would like to say, Brandon, I have a girlfriend, and I find that she mainly takes time away from the quality time I could spend with my tank. Not to mention, she has gotten the idea in her head that I am a huge dork (this may or may not be true), and keeps reminding me of that fact. Every chance she gets. 8O


And Daniel. I think most of what you are saying is right on. I like the idea of plumbing a fuge above the tank and letting the water overflow into the main tank. I think that Brooklyn Johnny did a really nice job plumbing his nano like this, and it is likely to help keep the Manderin happy. Remember, you are trying to keep a fish with very specific needs. Matt & I use our fuges as supplimental area for live rock, live sand, macroalgae, and pod farming. However, we are using them to maintain tanks with very small bioloads. Also, we are less interested in harvesting live, fully grown pods from my fuge. We would much rather have the planktonic pod larvea in my tank, because we are mainly only keeping corals, which do not benifit as much from full grown pods. My fish does not need a constant supply of pods. I also wonder if it would be a good idea to get a couple of skunk cleaners, or peppermits. Something that would be constantly reproducing, and thus giving food to the manderin. I am not sure if this is an appropriate diet, but hopefully someone will chime in and correct me if it is not.

As far as bulkheads go, you should probably order them online. This will probably take a while, and I know that you need them now. If that is the case, the place to look is probably a pool supply store. They will call them bulkhead fittings, as bulkhead really refers to the hole itself.

The more I think about the fuge, the more I like the idea of mounting it above the tank. Remember, it is its own little eco-system, and with a little creative aquascaping will be just as much, or more fun to look at than the display tank. This way you will get two cool eco-systems for the price of one. More Bling Bling for your $$$$. Let me know if you want more help.

Mike

 

[brandon4291]

Soon I will break out of this self-imposed social hiatus. I probably won't geek out 24/7 like I do now when the time comes to hook up, but this last year of harcore nano reefing has found favor with me and it will be hard to reduce the new lifestyle. I feel that even the most understanding companion will require at least 40% of the day doing things other than reefing, and this is a hard move to make. I enjoy flirting with a couple cuties in my LFS, as these are the only women who blush and smile when I tell them "Those are simply the most exquisite polyps I have ever seen. Your art of aquascaping catches my eye, very appealing. Bag it up, Ill take it."

On the overflow, a thin prefilter sock or sponge will prevent the gnashing of organisms. it will need to be cleaned regularly to prevent detritus buildup, but if its easier to pump from the refugium rather than to it this will prevent loss of fauna. Ive never had an overflow setup like this one before, only seen posts about them. I suppose a deciding factor on pumping to or fro would be the refugium placement in relation to the main tank--above tank refugium would pump to and below tank refugium would pump from...

B

 

[warloc4326]

With my green mandarin I have been able to feed her enriched brine and have had great luck with the amount of life on my rocks and sand that she eats. Now I only have a 25 gallon tank, however it's been a couple months and she appears to be just healthy enough (no signs of starvation). One thing I have been noticing though is that she seems to enjoy hanging out around my serpent star and snatching brine that it catches, talk about a pair there. Hopefully I will be able to post some pictures of the tank soon.

My first post btw, mainly just a lurker who gets all his info from here.
Thom

 

[brandon4291]

Thom, I just read your observations on the mandarin in your nano. I think this is very very valuable insight and we are always discussing pros and cons in here of doing what you are doing. Yes that apparent symbiosis with the star is awesome! And the fact that your specimen is willingly taking food from alternate sources (other than pure copes) opens the door to keeping these guys in smaller tanks. I am happy yours is doing well, we'd like to see pics whenever they are available. Good job and join our side of the debate next time someone says its absolutely impossible to keep mandarins in less than a 100g.



Come back and post when ya can

Brandon

 

[Anonymous]

I've said it before, I'll say it again....

As some of you may have noticed in the GRD and Industry forum, mandarinfishes are one of the top 10 imported fishes into the good old US of A. Go to a wholesaler and you can see a tank with literally hundreds of these guys ready to be sold. Now, why do you think it is that you don't see many in people's tanks? How many people do you know with mandarins? Can anyone claim to have one in a tank smaller than 100 gallons for more than a year?

I'm not saying it's unheard of. A friend of mine here in Davis kept one in a 55 gallon for two years before it died. It was accepting a frozen zooplankton preparation and had no other grazing competitors for food, like damsels, wrasses, other dragonets, etc. However, these fish are really unsuitable choices for nano aquariums.

Let me quote Scott W. Michael:
"Challenging to feed. Must be provided with plenty of natural prey, which can be introduced on live rock and live sand. Will eat vitamin-enriched live brine shrimp and live black worms, but is a methodical feeder that does not fare well with competitors.....
...(This fish) has an unfortunate survival record among aquarists. This fish too often starves in newly set up or sterile tanks. It must be kept in a well established aquarium with live substrate and plenty of hiding places."
He gives it an Aquarium suitability index of 2 , 1 being the least suitable species.
"Most individuals of these species do not acclimate to the home aquarium, often refusing to feed and wasting away in captivity. These species are best left in the wild or ordered only by the experienced aquarist with the aptitude and willingness to devote the time and energy to maintaining them."

 

[UnderGrad]

Thom,
How long was your 25 setup before you introduced your green mandarin? And what other tank mates does the mandarin share your tank with? I see a recurring trend that people who have gotten the mandarins to accept brine (live or frozen) have lower flow rates in their tanks so that the brine is able to settle on the rocks/sand. Is this the case in your tank? I ask all these questions because I'm seriously considering adding one to my tank...

Hey Matt... did you get a look at NKT's helfrechi pair? Looks like he beat you to it...

-AM-

 

[Anonymous]

Arlan,
No I hadn't seen that! I told them to take my name off their waiting list anyway, since I got the red firefish. Just too pricey.

I should add that I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should or should not add to their tanks. Someone once said: "When you pay for my fish, then you can tell me what to buy."

I just want to make everyone aware of the very demanding needs of this fish in particular so that anyone attempting to keep it can prepare for those needs.

BTW, live brine shrimp, unless vitamin enriched, are about as nutritious as popcorn to fish. Very newly hatched brine nauplii, less than 24 hours old, or mysis shrimp, are a much more nutritious food for your mandarin if you can get him to accept them.