Hawaii Collection Bill

[dizzy]

Why shouldn't we believe someone like Keiron Dodds who writes about the unsuitability of Moorish Idols? Why shouldn't we believe Fenner, as well? Why shouldn't we believe the published lists of unsuitable species?Why shouldn't we believe the 2005 Rubec Mortality Rates in the COC study and the studies referenced there?

Look oceanfish I don't know who you are, but I do know you are not a scientist. A scientist would not let themself be emotion driven. I don't know who this Keiron Dobbs is, but unsuitable is not a scientific word. Unsustainable would be the word a scientist would use. The reason we should be skeptical about any published DOA numbers is that the source of many of those numbers was a plumber named Frank Lallo that has since taken to hidding when the numbers were challenged. (Search the forum) Because of fanatics like you people are reluctant to share accurate DOA information so it is all just a guessing game. If you really want to make a difference start breeding yellow tangs and selling them to the industry as a superior alternative to wild caught.

 

[Twisted1]

I have very few customers who are constantly buying new fish.

In fact when i see a customer that seems to be buying a lot of fish compared to the relative size of thier tank I question it.

It's easy for me though, I have a much smaller clientale then many of the people on these forums, it isn't too hard for me to follow my customers buying habits.

As far as "Newbies" killing off all of your fish? i don't know how true that is.
My first salt water set up, I had the same 6 fish in for the first three years it was up, the only loss I had was the mistake of putting a Yasha Hase in the tank with a basslet. And a Blue Spot Jawfish that had jumped even after I had attempted to secure the top of the tank.

If you spent your efforts trying to help educate the hobbyist, rather then condeming the hobby you would probablly have a much greater effect.

 

[Twisted1]

Besides we all know DOA numbers a re exaggerated for tax write offs.....oops...did I type that out loud?

 

[Anonymous]

OK, so if Hawaii's fish live longer, and so more than 1% are estimated to survive longer than a year, that would be good info to have. But until then, there are studies, reports, experts and "reformed" marine aquarists from all over the world that agree with the basic premise that wild caught marine animals fare poorly in the hobby. How poorly is the discussion now, apparently.

What studies? What reports? I see a nice slideshow to really hit home the "problem" and it specifically quotes one person's ESTIMATES, if there were studies and reports those should be what numbers you (or whomever is associated with that savehawaii site) should use. Right now I picked out a number that was referenced to another page, I've read the referenced page and found out that number is taken WAY out of context, in the wrong way, and is only an estimate based upon.... we don't know that either. So to me that says you exaggerated/lied about one "fact" what else is an exaggeration/lie? Which really destroys all credibility to that entire thing.

 

[oceanfish]

OK, so if Hawaii's fish live longer, and so more than 1% are estimated to survive longer than a year, that would be good info to have. But until then, there are studies, reports, experts and "reformed" marine aquarists from all over the world that agree with the basic premise that wild caught marine animals fare poorly in the hobby. How poorly is the discussion now, apparently.

What studies? What reports? I see a nice slideshow to really hit home the "problem" and it specifically quotes one person's ESTIMATES, if there were studies and reports those should be what numbers you (or whomever is associated with that savehawaii site) should use. Right now I picked out a number that was referenced to another page, I've read the referenced page and found out that number is taken WAY out of context, in the wrong way, and is only an estimate based upon.... we don't know that either. So to me that says you exaggerated/lied about one "fact" what else is an exaggeration/lie? Which really destroys all credibility to that entire thing.

Here's one:
"40% of species currently traded (worldwide) may not be suitable for the average aquarist." - Sadovy and Vincent 2002

Then see if this one resonates:
http://www.spc.int/Coastfish/news/LRF/13/Rubec.pdf

Here's Sadovy again, a scientist using the word........."unsuitable"......
http://www.spc.int/Coastfish/News/LRF/10/LRF10-02.htm

 

[dizzy]

Wow oceanfish both your links use bogus information to try and make their case: A survey of over 300 aquarium fish retailers indicated that mortality levels of fish imported from the Philippines (where various middlemen are often involved) ranged from 30 to 60 per cent within three days of arrival in the United States (Rubec et al. 2000).

The source (informant if you will) of the supposed survey is none other than Frank Lallo the plumber that claimed to have made phone calls to these retailers. I call bull sh!te on Frank Lallo and also on any shoddy researcher who tries to use this false and tainted misinformation.

Peter Rubec you need to come out and tell Oceanfish that Frank Lallo was your source and that he backpeddled when called out on his data.

 

[Anonymous]

You know, it's really quite easy to get in touch with Bob and ask him about what was written and, perhaps, what he might know about the current state of the state's MO fishery. If he's in the country then he's usually pretty fast about responding. Just hit him through WetWebMedia.

 

[reefrash]

Wow "oceanfish" you seem to have a tornado of misinformation of staggering proportions, you get emotional and blather yet you seem to not have a solid grasp on aquariology. To throw out numbers left and right that somehow back up you agenda and expect folks who post here that actually give a crap about the state of the industry and long term viability makes it seem like your preaching to the choir but doing it in a condescending fashion. I suggest you try and be less arrogant and you may find that we all want to keep our jobs instead of joining a paving crew due to someone having way too much time on their hands blathering on about something they are ill informed about.

The industry is here face it, and if you try to take food off of peoples plate to satisfy your agenda of having haoles snorkel while you count your duckets, be my guest. The issue is that you are barking up the wrong tree and wasting your time, ask questions first point fingers later, remember these people work in the industry they are WAY more informed than someone posting random links that only back their side of the argument.

 

[Anonymous]

Here's one:
"40% of species currently traded (worldwide) may not be suitable for the average aquarist." - Sadovy and Vincent 2002

How does 40% of (wordwide) fish being unsuitable translate to less than 1% survival in a year??

 

[iridophores]

It just doesn't pay to stock a fish that either: A. Has such high loses you lose money on it. or B. Dies frequently and causes customers to drop out of the hobby.

OK, so I'll repeat my question: what % of fish live longer than a year? Yellow tangs or otherwise. Show us the data. If you disagree with Fenner which is where we got that info, then show us the data, the experts who prove otherwise.

If there are 700,000 marine aquariums in the U.S., and 350,000 yellow tangs shipped from Hawaii every year, I imagine there are A LOT of yellow tangs in those tanks... unless, of course, they are dying....

Rene,
Did you account for the percentage of yellow tangs being exported into other markets??? Are you aware of Asia's middle class boom and the increasing demand from over there?

 

[iridophores]

Can somebody get Fenner involved in this because Rene seems to think she has an understanding of our industry, and the professionals involved in it.

Rene,
Tissots study also clearly states that they feel the industry can and is being sustainably managed. ALL scientist agree that you can not look at the recruitment on a year by year basis as variations in the natural enviroment such as currents, storms, lunar cycles, etc can heavily influence each years numbers. You are looking at a snapshot. Look at the bigger picture and you see that numbers soar, and they drop. Jack Randall just addressed this very issue in HFN two months ago!!! he must not have a clue whats going on, huh? :roll:

 

[rgbmatt]

Might as well let the "sources" here speak for themselves. Here is what Bob Fenner has to say, when questioned about his material being misused:

Have seen one such "report"... I never made the taken out of context statements, nor do I know the folks who paraphrased, nor as you can assume, did I grant permission for folks to quote me in any case

Absolutely not the case. I am unabashedly pro-industry, and have been all my semi-adult life. Promoting human use of the living world is the very best way to insure its future preservation... Including ornamental aquatics... which represents a diminishingly small percentage of incidental and overall mortality.

And here is what says about local aquarium fishermen and the survival rate of our fish:

It fills one with wonder to meet these people; no two are alike, yet they share a spiritual love and respect for the sea, and it's inhabitants. Many are native Hawaiians

And the difference shows. The survivability and vigor of Hawaiian livestock must be experienced first hand to be appreciated. I have seen many one hundred percent live, zero DOA shipments from Hawaii; extremely few from other areas outside the U.S.

In the finite game of pet-fishing, Hawaiian livestock is a winner. They are worth every penny; they live due to better handling, public regulation, shorter flight times, and better initial quality.

This is what Dr. Leon Hallacher (coauthor of the oft-mentioned Tissot & Hallacher paper) has said of the Hawaiian aquarium fishery:

Personally, the ornamental trade makes huge sense to me and I support it. It's important to the economy, it's sustainable, it's clean, and it's educational.

The FRA structure on the west side of the Island of Hawaii has worked well (supported by data), right along side of collecting areas which support what I believe is a healthy aquarium fish industry. The Big Island FRA delineation has made it evident that healthy reefs and fisheries can coexist.

 

[PeterIMA]

While I don't agree with everything being stated by our poster from Hawaii, I wish to clarify some points being made.

The poster cited a paper I wrote with Ferdindand Cruz (Rubec and Cruz 2005). The title of the paper was:

Monitoring the Chain of Custody To Reduce Delayed Mortality Of Net-Caught Fish In the Aquarium Trade. It was published in hard copy and online in the SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin #13 pages 13-23.

The paper cited above makes no reference to information from Frank Lallo. The information came from a variety of sources, most of the emphasis is on the DOA and DAA associated with Marine Aquairium Fish (MAF) collected in the Philippines and Indonesia. It concluded that there had been some reduction in mortalities since the mid-1980s, but that there continues to be high rates of mortality in the marine aquarium trade.

Actually, there is some pretty damning information provided in the archives of this Forum. For example the mortalities that Ferdinand Cruz has observed in export facilities in Bali that buy cyanide-caught fish (some of which are MAC Certified). Those in the trade who presently claim otherwise are stretching the truth.

The reference to the "study" by Frank Lallo is on line in a paper I wrote in 2001. It is true to say that I never was able to obtain the raw data from Mr. Lallo to confirm that he actually did the study he claimed.

Rubec, P.J., F. Cruz, V. Pratt, R. Oellers, B. McCullough, and F. Lallo. Cyanide-Free Net-Caught Fish For the Marine Aquarium Trade. 2001. Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 3: 37-51. An earlier version of this paper was also published online in 2000 in the Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin (no. 7).

There are issues being raised about Hawaii that I have not written about and hence, I am not the information source. Specifically the accusation is that aquarium collecting in Hawaii (with nets) is not sustainable. Having read papers and NOAA grant funded reports by Tissot and Hallacher I concur with Oceanfish that the collecting off the Kona coast documented is not sustainable. While the Fish Replenishment Areas (FRAs) help to preserve some species, there should also be regulations to limit either the number of collectors or quotas imposed on the number of individuals of certain species to ensure that they are not being overcollected to the detriment of the stocks. I am not suggesting that these fisheries be banned.

I agree that there are also other problems impacting coral reefs and associated fish communtiies in Hawaii and elsewhere and that it is unfair to blame the aquarium trade for all of it (like climate change, Chlorox fishing, spear fishing etc).

I have not published anything on the longjevity of MAF. Having been importing MAF fish for the past several years, I have collected information on the DOA and the DAA in the USA of net-caught fish originating from
the Philippines and Indonesia. The DOA data are not as high as that ascribed to Frank Lallo. But, they are high enough to be of concern. It does indicate that MAF fish experience hgher mortality on shipments over longer distances for longer durations.

I have found that net-caught fish live (almost no DAA) provided they are not DOA in the bags. One store I deal with near Tampa has also purchased MAF from LA-based transshippers that are believed to have been caught with cyanide. These fish have both higher DOA (than the net-caught fish) and a high DAA. The store in Tampa does not have hobbyists returning dead fish to the store demanding a refund or a replacement on net-caught fish they purchased.

I have not collected information on the longjevity of MAF. I am interested to obtain it, if anyone has published on it. Most of the information I have is anecdotal. It is true that some MAF can live for 5 years or more (if properly maintained). I have spoken to hobbyists who have kept MAF for more than 10 years. I don't have information on the maximum age of yellow tangs (I doubt that such a study exists).

I believe in a sustainable MAF trade. This can be achieved. But, there is a need for more regulation, especially with the collectors (whether they be situated in the USA or in other countries).

Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
Aquarium Hobbyist, Importer, and Fisheries Scientist

 

[Anonymous]

rgbmatt, is this a recent quote from Bob? In other words, did you contact him directly asking about his statements and receive a response?

If no one else does, I will (Rich, have you corresponded with him recently, perchance?). As I mentioned, as long as he's in country he's very good about responding quickly and if he's being misquoted or his words used as he didn't intend them, I believe he would want to be aware of it so that he might be able to clarify himself. That being said, I'm not going to ask him to read all eight pages (thus far) of this thread. I will likely simply be quoting what oceanfish has offered us and submitting that for his perusal.

 

[oceanfish]

I have not collected information on the longjevity of MAF. I am interested to obtain it, if anyone has published on it. Most of the information I have is anecdotal. It is true that some MAF can live for 5 years or more (if properly maintained). I have spoken to hobbyists who have kept MAF for more than 10 years. I don't have information on the maximum age of yellow tangs (I doubt that such a study exists).

I believe in a sustainable MAF trade. This can be achieved. But, there is a need for more regulation, especially with the collectors (whether they be situated in the USA or in other countries).

Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
Aquarium Hobbyist, Importer, and Fisheries Scientist

Here's a link to some of the Parrish and Claisse work on Yellow tang ages: http://www.nova.edu/ocean/cpce/parrish_ ... l_2005.pdf

I believe the oldest one they've found so far was 40.5. Note the mean age of 11 years old in a couple of areas. In other areas, the mean age is 5 years. This is the same work showing that ~30% disappeared from the site over 5 months.

 

[Anonymous]

The Marine Ornamentals industry has a 100% Mortality rate!! 8O 8O (eventually)

 

[pyrrhus]

Oceanfish, I read your article by Parrish and Claisse. I found a few things interesting about your interpretations of this data.

"Repeated observations of individually tagged juvenile yellow tang at three sites indicated that ~30% of individuals disappeared from the specific site over a period of 5 months"

It is clearly stated in the article that this data was taken from Protected areas, how are you interpreting this as showing that the MO industry is depleting said animals by this percentage?

If the figure of 30% removal from MO collections is even close to true, and this is the same percentage that is lost from a protected area then it seems to me that the collectors are doing a pretty damned good job of not affecting the populations of these animals in any significant manner.

"The results of these studies are providing information essential for any assessment of these exploited aquarium stocks"

I find this to be a highly biased statement and it certainly brings doubt onto the interpretations drawn from the data

"However, the site with the second highest proportion of fish over 10 years old is the area open to aquarium collecting at Wawaloli Beach."

I found this to be an interesting bit of data from the study. If MO collections are so damaging, why is this the case?

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Oceanfish,

I understand your concern about what is happening to a great percentage of marine ornamentals collected for the marine aquarium industry. However, I should say that the feedback I get from canadian fish buyers importing fish from Hawaii is that the quality is excellent and DOA and DAA are very low. Many of my customers have in their aquariums yellow tangs older than 10 years (in captivity).

The same doesn't apply to MO coming from the Philippines, Indo and other developing countries where corruption, poverty, lack of education and lack of willingness and commitment of central governments to deal with all the problems related to coastal communities and management of coral reefs.

I have seen, first hand, how terrible is the situation at community level in the Philippines, fish are killed by thousands and the ones surviving are exposed to negative conditions during extended periods of time. At this level things have improved during the last decade but there is work to be done.

Jaime

 

[JeremyR]

I would like to know how you tell a fish is 40.5 years old. That's a pretty exact measurement

 

[pyrrhus]

I would like to know how you tell a fish is 40.5 years old. That's a pretty exact measurement

Apparently they are counting rings in the Otoliths (ear bones) of the fish. Currently the researchers are assuming the rings are annual, though they admit that each ring could change in value by as much as +/- 1 year.

The oldest fish indicated in that study was 35.5, not 40.5, assuming the rings are annual.