I don't know.. there isn't a huge amount of activity in this forum, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to remove someone's post and notify them if they want to be heard (or in the cast of most of the people who nobody knows who they are, flame someone) then they have to sign their post. The only real arguement I've seen that held water to me about not requiring people to identify themselves was cases where employees at large wholesalers would be afraid to post, etc etc.. but you don't really see them posting for the most part anyways.
Heh. No Comment.JeremyR":jeqcmkpc said:
The forum isn't that much out of control. The biggest problems I see are the '1 post' trolls and the 'naming names'. Not naming names wasn't my rule but we all agreed to adhere to it when the forum was first created. I think the one thing missing from this forum is a sticky titled "PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING" thread outlining the purpose of this forum along with "guidelines" to follow.
Rover and Len already do a good job at moderating, I know they are always watching me. :wink: I don't think heavier moderation will do much of anything except make people more afraid to post. However, at the same time, all out anarchy prevents those with thin skins from posting as well. *shrugs*
It's a complex quandry.
I've learned a lot in this forum, and I'd hate to see it go, or changed to the point where valid points of view, however "radical" they may seem, are stymied.
I do think the one-post trolls have done the most damage here, people without the courage to identify themselves, point fingers and run. However most of us here have learned to figure those types out and disregard them fairly quickly.
Respectfully, Jaime, singling out Steve and Gresham simply because their points of view are different from yours, is rather pointless. You could lump me into the "dissention" category also if you really wanted to, I've been vocal about a lot of things, as have many others. If everybody here had the same viewpoint, there wouldn't be much to discuss, would there? Rather, all concerned being able to express their opinions and experiences and discuss them in a civil manner, gives the reader the option to hear all sides of a discussion and formulate their own opinion from there. Don't agree with someone? Post facts to refute them, but asking to have their voice silenced altogether is doing a disservice to all, yourself included.
Noticed I bashed the post - not the poster. It's really the only rule of thumb we should all have to be mindful of. I think a lot of the grief comes from personality conflicts among individuals who have had business or other dealings with each other in the past, and that seem to have a personal ax to grind that takes an otherwise constructive discussion into a counter-productive vein. If people can agree not to make it personal, sprited debate can continue, to the enlightenment of all.
Naming names can be tricky, especially where libel/slander laws apply, and I think it should remain the way that it is, to protect RDO. I can also understand where employees may not want to reveal their identity as it could compromise their job. For me, I own my own business so I'm ultimately responsible for what I say, and its possible effects on my business, but many others do not have that luxury, and I understand and respect that.
By "increased moderation"... that it a rather vague notion. What does it mean? Does it mean that if I don't agree with a poster, I can complain and get the post deleted? OR does it mean that a newcomer to the forum, who may have a valid point of view, gets his post tossed simply because it's his first post? Or does it simply mean that the minute a valid argument is disqualified by somebody calling somebody else a poopy-head, that all discussion ceases?
From what I've seen here, most people are passionate about their views, and sometimes that passion is sometimes misconstrued, and the flames begin. Alternatively, I've seen some folks post from such an uninformed point of view, that it's near impossible to consider their opinions seriously, and they only seem to serve to irritate and annoy, without having any real understanding of what they are talking about. It would be a shame to have the forum silenced by trolls - after all that's their objective isn't it?
Perhaps one idea would be to have a "sticky" introduction thread where posters new and old can identify themselves as much as they choose to, but also explain their position within the hobby or trade, so other posters can understand the point of view they may present. For example... "I'm JennM, hobbyist with 19 years' experience, worked in the trade for 1 year before opening my own LFS in the southern US, 3 years ago". Doesn't identify my shop or city, but gives the reader a perspective on my standing. Given the nature of these forums, there's no real way to verify that anyone is who they say they are, but assuming that most folks will be honest about that, it's a start. Many of us already know each other either through business dealings, having met at MACNA or some other event etc. To that end we're more aware of who each other is, than in many other of the forums here and elsewhere. There are still going to be trolls, no doubt, but some sort of "about us" thread might weed some of that out at least.
Just my humble 4 cents' worth.
Jenn
I've learned a lot in this forum, and I'd hate to see it go, or changed to the point where valid points of view, however "radical" they may seem, are stymied.
I do think the one-post trolls have done the most damage here, people without the courage to identify themselves, point fingers and run. However most of us here have learned to figure those types out and disregard them fairly quickly.
Respectfully, Jaime, singling out Steve and Gresham simply because their points of view are different from yours, is rather pointless. You could lump me into the "dissention" category also if you really wanted to, I've been vocal about a lot of things, as have many others. If everybody here had the same viewpoint, there wouldn't be much to discuss, would there? Rather, all concerned being able to express their opinions and experiences and discuss them in a civil manner, gives the reader the option to hear all sides of a discussion and formulate their own opinion from there. Don't agree with someone? Post facts to refute them, but asking to have their voice silenced altogether is doing a disservice to all, yourself included.
Noticed I bashed the post - not the poster. It's really the only rule of thumb we should all have to be mindful of. I think a lot of the grief comes from personality conflicts among individuals who have had business or other dealings with each other in the past, and that seem to have a personal ax to grind that takes an otherwise constructive discussion into a counter-productive vein. If people can agree not to make it personal, sprited debate can continue, to the enlightenment of all.
Naming names can be tricky, especially where libel/slander laws apply, and I think it should remain the way that it is, to protect RDO. I can also understand where employees may not want to reveal their identity as it could compromise their job. For me, I own my own business so I'm ultimately responsible for what I say, and its possible effects on my business, but many others do not have that luxury, and I understand and respect that.
By "increased moderation"... that it a rather vague notion. What does it mean? Does it mean that if I don't agree with a poster, I can complain and get the post deleted? OR does it mean that a newcomer to the forum, who may have a valid point of view, gets his post tossed simply because it's his first post? Or does it simply mean that the minute a valid argument is disqualified by somebody calling somebody else a poopy-head, that all discussion ceases?
From what I've seen here, most people are passionate about their views, and sometimes that passion is sometimes misconstrued, and the flames begin. Alternatively, I've seen some folks post from such an uninformed point of view, that it's near impossible to consider their opinions seriously, and they only seem to serve to irritate and annoy, without having any real understanding of what they are talking about. It would be a shame to have the forum silenced by trolls - after all that's their objective isn't it?
Perhaps one idea would be to have a "sticky" introduction thread where posters new and old can identify themselves as much as they choose to, but also explain their position within the hobby or trade, so other posters can understand the point of view they may present. For example... "I'm JennM, hobbyist with 19 years' experience, worked in the trade for 1 year before opening my own LFS in the southern US, 3 years ago". Doesn't identify my shop or city, but gives the reader a perspective on my standing. Given the nature of these forums, there's no real way to verify that anyone is who they say they are, but assuming that most folks will be honest about that, it's a start. Many of us already know each other either through business dealings, having met at MACNA or some other event etc. To that end we're more aware of who each other is, than in many other of the forums here and elsewhere. There are still going to be trolls, no doubt, but some sort of "about us" thread might weed some of that out at least.
Just my humble 4 cents' worth.
Jenn
JennM":2fg1bdw2 said:
I am not interested in stymying any points of view, rather interested in making this the type of forum where industry people feel comfortable expressing their points of view.
Thats exactly what I am after!
Nope!
Nope!
Maybe. It depends on how bad the poopy stuff becomes.
Maybe instead of locking the threads, we can just delete the offending posts.
Any ideas on how to deal with the people posting without having any real understanding of what they are talking about? I have the impression that they are the kinds of people who have chased some 'qualified' posters off.
Seems like an idea worth trying. Thanks!
Righty Wrote:
Yes, I would agree with the statement that many with something legitimate to offer this group have been discouraged from participating, or just plain "run off" by those who haven't a clue about this industry or its workings.
To answer your question: Sadly, no. Even after repeated pointing out of individuals' complete and utter lack of knowledge or understanding of the issue(s) being discussed, some still choose to spout off. I've been guilty of perpetuating it, as have others, by constantly pointing out inaccuracies etc., instead of just ignoring the offending poster. It's rather like a train wreck at times - just can't stop looking at it, and responding to it I suppose if we could all agree to ignore the trolls perhaps they would go away, but that's a tall order to ask of any group, especially an intense one such as we are.
It would also be a shame if the aforementioned, "poopyhead" stuff causes an otherwise well-pointed post to get deleted - kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. While I can see the need for intervention at times, in my experience it hasn't been all that bad here, I've seen plenty worse elsewhere. Perhaps *IF* it comes to that, taking the "personality" out of a post but leaving the facts of the matter there for further discussion would be a happy medium?
In my own experience as a forum moderator on my own site on an unrelated subject, I have found that a discrete, private converstation with troublesome posters often solves the problem without banishment, however there will always be someone who just won't play nicely, but those situations are few and far between, and drastic measures rarely need to be taken.
I should also say, that this forum has enabled me to network very effectively with peers and suppliers as well as hobbyists, whom I'd probably not have found otherwise, and to that end I think it's a great thing. Hopefully these issues can be resolved to the betterment of the forum, and encourage more widespread participation by those with something positive to contribute.
Jenn
Yes, I would agree with the statement that many with something legitimate to offer this group have been discouraged from participating, or just plain "run off" by those who haven't a clue about this industry or its workings.
To answer your question: Sadly, no. Even after repeated pointing out of individuals' complete and utter lack of knowledge or understanding of the issue(s) being discussed, some still choose to spout off. I've been guilty of perpetuating it, as have others, by constantly pointing out inaccuracies etc., instead of just ignoring the offending poster. It's rather like a train wreck at times - just can't stop looking at it, and responding to it
I suppose if we could all agree to ignore the trolls perhaps they would go away, but that's a tall order to ask of any group, especially an intense one such as we are.It would also be a shame if the aforementioned, "poopyhead" stuff causes an otherwise well-pointed post to get deleted - kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. While I can see the need for intervention at times, in my experience it hasn't been all that bad here, I've seen plenty worse elsewhere. Perhaps *IF* it comes to that, taking the "personality" out of a post but leaving the facts of the matter there for further discussion would be a happy medium?
In my own experience as a forum moderator on my own site on an unrelated subject, I have found that a discrete, private converstation with troublesome posters often solves the problem without banishment, however there will always be someone who just won't play nicely, but those situations are few and far between, and drastic measures rarely need to be taken.
I should also say, that this forum has enabled me to network very effectively with peers and suppliers as well as hobbyists, whom I'd probably not have found otherwise, and to that end I think it's a great thing. Hopefully these issues can be resolved to the betterment of the forum, and encourage more widespread participation by those with something positive to contribute.
Jenn
What makes this forum a scary place is having to deal with qualified responses.[not the name calling] One way sound bites have been the norm in this industry until now. Taking out a magazine article or a news press release where a person can make as many unqualified observations he or she is willing to pay the magazine is a cake walk compared to having to back up your position in front of your peers. There are few industry individuals willing to allow us to strip them naked for all to see no matter how nicely we denude them .
Righty":f67yc1y1 said:
This forum is quite the amalgamation. It is what it is, and has changed a bit over time. I've never followed it in the very beginning, only before my last trip to the Philippines, and then in order to reconnect with JT to make some PI connections. Mary was Moderator then, followed by John Brandt. The forum was well into reef conservation territory at that time, and for a while afterwards. Now it has mostly veered back to the more mundane (in my opinion) daily dealings that concern local fish stores.
My point is that the forum will do and become strictly what the participants let it do and become. Maybe we need to come to a certain level of agreement where we call the trolls trolls and ignore them. I am not against agitators either, as long as they have a logical point, even if I disagree wholeheartedly.
As far as moderation, editing posts is a slippery slope, as is outright deletion*. Can a moderator take a post off-line, or make it appear as nonsense, while working with the poster to edit it to make the content less objectionable? This seems like a more positive solution/outcome.
*(At the same time, I also think that some of the posts I have seen deserve to be deleted outright, as opposed to being locked. When one-post exporter posts rant about an importer, for instance. Such crap should be handled privately, not publicly... )
Anyway, my two cents opinion as a hobbyist who cares deeply about the trade, and wants to see it continue and prosper in an ecologically and environmentally friendly way.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
LFS issues may be mundane to some (many?) but it is relevant to the forum I've garnered some good info here, and hopefully I've managed to share a bit too.
You're right - it becomes about what folks here are talking about. Seems like it goes in cycles - for the longest time MAC was the hot topic and it still comes up from time to time but most of us here seem to have tired of beating that dead horse.
Since LFS types aren't into sharing livestock vendor info, that probably won't go anywhere - we all want to protect our "sources" for the best stuff, and protect our own slice of the cherry pie
Still stuff like my "sumps" thread etc. can be helpful - if not as emotionally charged as a netting discussion
Jenn
I've garnered some good info here, and hopefully I've managed to share a bit too.You're right - it becomes about what folks here are talking about. Seems like it goes in cycles - for the longest time MAC was the hot topic and it still comes up from time to time but most of us here seem to have tired of beating that dead horse.
Since LFS types aren't into sharing livestock vendor info, that probably won't go anywhere - we all want to protect our "sources" for the best stuff, and protect our own slice of the cherry pie
Still stuff like my "sumps" thread etc. can be helpful - if not as emotionally charged as a netting discussion
Jenn
JennM":3ak1c9vl said:LFS issues may be mundane to some (many?) but it is relevant to the forum
You're right - it becomes about what folks here are talking about. Seems like it goes in cycles - for the longest time MAC was the hot topic and it still comes up from time to time but most of us here seem to have tired of beating that dead horse.
Hi, Jenn.
I agree - The Forum should be about the more mundane things that helps keep you LFS-types going, even if it isn't all that interesting from my point of view. Additionally, it should remain a place where we can discuss the other end of the supply chain and its practices. I can only imagine how esoteric discussions about netting and village-level fish holding practices must be when you are ordering from your local wholesaler and trying like crazy to keep your store in order and looking pretty, all while dealing with customers. :lol:
MAC became irrelevant a long time ago, IMO.
No reason for further discussion on that topic.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Ouch...
Call them unprofessional...inept or clue-less.
Wasteful, inexperienced and money focused...
But irrelevant...ahh the unkindest cut of all!
The irrelevant self appointed voice of the trade needs to be replaced then by something 'relevant'...I would hope.
In our case, the best defense is not silence...or stonewalling. Especially when guilty.
This conversation though has been tabled somewhat by the threat to 'reform or else'...being lessened.
Steve
PS.
I personally think that the way can be shown by enlightened free enterprise and by competing businesss chain with a heart putting a payroll behind engineering better fish...better collected, better handled and more defensible. As its live goods we deal in, its hard to create better quality in the field without better relations with fisherman.
Reform, spurred on by a better business model can do wonders...cheaper, faster and more effective.
If only the million dollar players agreed. Theres a dozen or so of them and unfortunately...they don't agree.
And so the status quo continues.
The time is now...before the threats and calls for shutdown return.
Call them unprofessional...inept or clue-less.
Wasteful, inexperienced and money focused...
But irrelevant...ahh the unkindest cut of all!
The irrelevant self appointed voice of the trade needs to be replaced then by something 'relevant'...I would hope.
In our case, the best defense is not silence...or stonewalling. Especially when guilty.
This conversation though has been tabled somewhat by the threat to 'reform or else'...being lessened.
Steve
PS.
I personally think that the way can be shown by enlightened free enterprise and by competing businesss chain with a heart putting a payroll behind engineering better fish...better collected, better handled and more defensible. As its live goods we deal in, its hard to create better quality in the field without better relations with fisherman.
Reform, spurred on by a better business model can do wonders...cheaper, faster and more effective.
If only the million dollar players agreed. Theres a dozen or so of them and unfortunately...they don't agree.
And so the status quo continues.
The time is now...before the threats and calls for shutdown return.
This Forum covers all sides of the industry - retail and wholesale, and I think thats one of the things that makes it interestin!
Here is a real world question regarding the topic of this thread.
In this thread -
http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=68194
The stater has multiple screen names. Do you think locking the thread was the right thing to do? What, if anything would you like to see done differently to threads like that in the future? What, if anything, do you think should be done with multiple screen names that post threads like that?
Perhaps the promise that if multiple screen names are used in this forum, all the screen names posting from the offending IP will be listed?
Here is a real world question regarding the topic of this thread.
In this thread -
http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=68194
The stater has multiple screen names. Do you think locking the thread was the right thing to do? What, if anything would you like to see done differently to threads like that in the future? What, if anything, do you think should be done with multiple screen names that post threads like that?
Perhaps the promise that if multiple screen names are used in this forum, all the screen names posting from the offending IP will be listed?
Personally I think Glenn did the right thing. Similar posts by the same poster about the same wholesaler have been closed down before. This forum isn't a place to air dirty laundry about one's business dealings, and the issue should be taken to the entity in question directly by the party with the grievance. I stated that in the thread before it was locked.
IP tracking can be difficult - I post from different locations for example, so my IP changes. I also don't have a static IP so it can change even in the same location. In my experience, trying to fight trolls with IP tracking is ineffective at best.
Personally I think each user should be limited to one screen name, but with multiple email addresses and IPs it's hard to regulate that too.
Unfortunately it's one of those "comes with the territory" situations, so I guess locking 'em down when there's trouble brewing is about the best way to go.
Jenn
IP tracking can be difficult - I post from different locations for example, so my IP changes. I also don't have a static IP so it can change even in the same location. In my experience, trying to fight trolls with IP tracking is ineffective at best.
Personally I think each user should be limited to one screen name, but with multiple email addresses and IPs it's hard to regulate that too.
Unfortunately it's one of those "comes with the territory" situations, so I guess locking 'em down when there's trouble brewing is about the best way to go.
Jenn
Good question. While the subject matter *in general* is relevant, calling out an individual entity is not good netiquette, IMO.
How about modifying the post leaving its intent there, but removing any specific references? Yeah it's censorship - but it's censorship either way - locking it, editing it or deleting it, either way intervention is called for.
Has any moderator had a word with the poster to explain that it's not within the guidelines not to name names such as he/she did? Perhaps given an opportunity, they would edit their own post. Perhaps not - but at least if the originator of the offending thread has a chance to fix it, other more drastic measures may not need to be taken.
Of course in some instances people post with the intention of making waves... but if there's a procedure in place to nip it discretely in the bud, that might make things friendlier here?
Jenn
How about modifying the post leaving its intent there, but removing any specific references? Yeah it's censorship - but it's censorship either way - locking it, editing it or deleting it, either way intervention is called for.
Has any moderator had a word with the poster to explain that it's not within the guidelines not to name names such as he/she did? Perhaps given an opportunity, they would edit their own post. Perhaps not - but at least if the originator of the offending thread has a chance to fix it, other more drastic measures may not need to be taken.
Of course in some instances people post with the intention of making waves... but if there's a procedure in place to nip it discretely in the bud, that might make things friendlier here?
Jenn
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
I know,
Make a pillory online and put the avatar in it of they who has gotten threads locked the most.
One thread...can be forgiven but several...to the pillory with them!
Steve
Make a pillory online and put the avatar in it of they who has gotten threads locked the most.
One thread...can be forgiven but several...to the pillory with them!
Steve
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