Reading on Cyanide

[Anonymous]

You need a website Peter, honestly

he's too virus paranoid :lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk, I agree with Mike. You are a broken record. My objection is that you continue to present numbers that are incorrect. As you know, I published the paper with the trend in the percentages of fishes with cyanide present. You stated that the percentage in 2001 was 21%. While the IMA has data for 2001, we only presented data in the paper from 1996 to 2000. The percentage of cyanide present in marine aquarium fishes declined from 43%
in 1996, to 41% in 1997, 18% in 1998, 8% in 1999, then increased to 29% in 2000. So, where did you come up with the 21% in 2001? As far as I know there is no published data for 2001. Please stop blowing smoke.

Peter Rubec

You never explained if the changes in cyanide findings year from year were due to you collecting samples
1.] From different collectors each year ,
2.] Different species of fish from year to year
3.] or what?
The fact that some species only had one individual fish included for the entire five years of testing means that the fish species make up did change year to year. The testing of one fish from seven hundred collectors would yeild a more acurate finding then testing seven hundred fish from five collectors, Its the collectors that determin if the fish has cyanide present. This seems to have been overlooked and its paramount to usefull data.
Just because you dont understand that your choice of collectors , the choice of fish species to be tested or the ratio of fish species in relation to what is actually sent to the USA ...is actually more important then the findings . Does not mean its out of bounds for me to ilustrate that they are very important issues.
Just like your not understanding that a study including more ribbon eels then yellow tangs would not lead to a real world comparison {in the Frank study} Here in this study , too much of the data is again without context, scope or relativity.

I will be interested in Steven's take of the study. Now that I have spiked his interest enough for him to actually read into the data itself . :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

I remember now, you still have the 2001 data and are holding it hostage.
Last year you claimed that the 2001 data was still {after five years} yet to be compiled by yourself. With what might be as many as 100 entries to compute........ how about letting someone else complete this complex project instead? Or is there another reason its taking so long? Like a six percent cyanide preliminary finding? :wink:

 

[StevenPro]

I will be interested in Steven's take of the study. Now that I have spiked his interest enough for him to actually read into the data itself . :wink:

The entire point of this thread was for individuals to suggest reading material to me. I always intended to read the actual studies.

In addition to the references I listed in the first post, I have added the following to my collection:

Bellwood, D.R. (1981) An investigation into the long term histological effects of sodium cyanide doses upon the gastro-intestinal tract of Dascyllus trimaculatus. Part I. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium. 4(11): 31-35, 75-76.

Bellwood, D.R. (1981) An investigation into the long term histological effects of sodium cyanide doses upon the gastro-intestinal tract of Dascyllus trimaculatus. Part II. Freshwater and Marine Aquarium. 4(12): 7-9, 87-88.

Cervino, J. M., R. L. Hayes, M. Honovitch, T. J. Goreau, S. Jones, and P. J. Rubec. 2003a. Changes in zooxanthellae density, morphology, and mitotic index in hermatypic corals and anemones exposed to cyanide. Marine Pollution Bulletin 46: 573-586.

Rubec, P.J., V.R. Pratt, B. McCullough, B. Manipula, J. Alban, T. Espero, and E.R. Suplido. 2003b. Trends determined by cyanide testing on marine aquarium fish in the Philippines. Pages 327-340, In: J.C. Cato and C.L. Brown (eds.), Marine Ornamental Species: Collection, Culture & Cultivation, Iowa State Press, Ames, Iowa.

Rubec, P.J., and F.P. Cruz. 2005. Monitoring the chain of custody to reduce delayed mortality of net-caught fish in the aquarium trade. Secretariate of the Pacific Community, Noumea, New Caledonia, Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin 13: 13-23.

This should hopefully give me a well-rounded perspecitve. Thanks to all for your contributions.

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, If you want any other of my papers, let me know.

Thanks,
Peter Rubec

 

[StevenPro]

Here is some more interesting reading:

Jones, R. J.; Kildea, T.; Hoegh-Guldberg, O.. PAM chlorophyll fluorometry: A new in situ technique for stress assessment in scleractinian corals, used to examine the effects of cyanide from cyanide fishing. In: Marine Pollution Bulletin Oct., 1999. 38 (10): 864-874.

Jones, Ross J.; Hoegh-Guldberg, Ove. Effects of cyanide on coral photosynthesis: Implications for identifying the cause of coral bleaching and for assessing the environmental effects of cyanide fishing. In: Marine Ecology Progress Series Feb. 11, 1999. 177 (0): 83-91.

Jones, Ross J.; Steven, Andrew L.. Effects of cyanide on corals in relation to cyanide fishing on reefs. In: Marine and Freshwater Research 1997. 48 (6): 517-522.

 

[StevenPro]

Does anyone know how cyanide works, ie how it 'anaesthetizes' the fish? I believe it might be more properly termed an asphyxiant, suffocating them until they pass out, but I wanted to double check.

 

[PeterIMA]

Steven, Cyanide does act to asphyxiate fish. The modes of actionof cyanide are complex. There are a number of detrimental actions including blocking the action of enzymes and interferring with basic biochemical pathways. The main mode of action is interference with the electron transport chain in the mitrochondia, that is involved with controlling the action of the blood to bind oxygen through the action of the enzyme cytochrome P450. See citations for papers by Dr. Gerard Leduc which discuss this (cited in my papers).

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

...or in English;
Cyanide deprives and depletes oxygen in living cells....resulting in cellular death and if a large enough collection of cells, tissue death.
Think gill tissues [ 1st affected] , liver tissues, spleen,stomach walls, intestines, etc.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Cool, thanks Steve - and of course, Steve for starting the thread in the first place..


Care to tackle how it toasts coral (in English) as well?

 

[clarionreef]

Grateful D,
How it toasts coral is something I've seen personally thruout a year of working in a cyanide collecting village and contributes to my close mindedness on the subject and passion for reform.
I need to remind myself that the so called moderates on this stuff have seen nothing and only read and google to get their sense of reality.
They have a caution based on fear of error [ strong in the inexperienced]and a decision making process based on personality and correct 'behavior.'
The routine abuse of cyanide as a sophoric in the Philippines and Indo among a few thousand divers adds up to a terrible toll thru the years.
For a detailed description of how coral [ hence coral habitat and reef ] dies however, I must difer to James Cervinos scholarly work on exactly that.
Pet shop scientists for years claimed there was no evidence of cyanide killing corals....
I wish we had James research available back then to go with what we already knew with absolute certainty. We were criticized for being ahead of the curve and I take that now as a normal condition now when dealing with the system.
Steve
PS.
Perhaps Peter could provide a good link of James work.

 

[StevenPro]

Thank you all for the assistance! My article will be out in a few days. I do have one final question though regarding whether or not collectors in Sri Lanka use cyanide.

In Jones, Ross J.; Steven, Andrew L.. Effects of cyanide on corals in relation to cyanide fishing on reefs. In: Marine and Freshwater Research 1997. 48 (6): 517-522. states that the practice is cyanide fishing "has already spread from the Philippines to Sri Lanka".

and

Sri Lanka - Corals at Risk: The Need for Protection
http://www.elaw.org/resources/text.asp?ID=687
mentions cyanide as if it is a problem there.

but

Cleansing Our Seas of a Poison Tide
http://www.oneocean.org/overseas/apr99/ ... _seas.html
omits Sri Lanka as an offending nation. "Today, Indonesia, which together with the Philippines supplies some 85% of the aquarium fish traded in the world market, is the primary source where cyanide use is suspected, but cyanide fishing has also been reported in Cambodia, the Maldives, Sabah, Thailand, Vietnam, and possibly the Red Sea (Eritrea) and Tanzania."

 

[StevenPro]

I also found this reference which says, "No incidents of cyanide fishing have yet been reported in Sri Lanka."

From http://www.dailynews.lk/2005/04/20/fea02.htm

 

[dizzy]

When in doubt leave it out.

 

[StevenPro]

That was my feeling already. I was just curious if there was a time issue that was involved. For instance, at the time of certain reports it was not practiced there but later spread.

 

[clarionreef]

. Cyanide and other poisonous chemicals are used to catch reef fish. The process of cyanide fishing itself indisputably wreaks havoc on coral reefs. The divers crush cyanide tablets into plastic squirt bottles of seawater and puff the solution at fish on coral heads. The fish often flee into crevices, obliging the divers to pry and hammer the reefs apart to collect their stunned prey.

Its the book report thing again.
They just got a citation from an unamed source who heard something about cyanide fishing somewhere over the rainbow.
He just glossed over where it was used and how.
..."obliging the diver to pry and hammer the reefs apart to collect their stunned prey"... :roll:
[When they are stunned, more often then not they are just collected just laying out in the open.]
Thats a good one....and proof of routine citation by a layman reporter of an incompetent source.
Steve
PS. Elizabeth Wood spent years with collectors in Sri Lanka....
Cyanide was never in evidence and since the divers already had a craft and a history of net collecting...where would be the driving factor to send them into collecting w/ poison anyway?

 

[StevenPro]

I hope my article does not sound like a book report when it comes out.

 

[StevenPro]

Well, I found one more reference to further muddy the waters.

http://www.waltsmith.com/media/pdfs/10_coralat_risk.PDF

"Cyanide has been used in the collection of aquarium fish in the Philippines since the 1960’s (Rubec, 1986). More recently, it has spread throughout Indonesia and to Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Malaysia, Papua New Guinea, Marshall Islands, Solomon Islands, Vietnam and Micronesia for capture of live reef food and aquarium fishes (Couchman and Beumer, 1992; Pajaro, 1992; Barber and Pratt, 1998)."

 

[PeterIMA]

As far as I know, cyanide fishing does not occur in Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Marshall Islands, Solomon Islands, and Micronesia.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

Steven,
Surely you know that there is a difference between the info put out there and the truth that is out there.
For example, 99% of whats out there on fish collecting is put out there by non collectors...
IF fish collectors were more educated, emperical types and spent long hours on the internet and in the biology labs library...you might get a vastly different picture of so many things.
However....the folks who do contribute to the body of verbage on the subject generally have it over the divers [who live the reality] in the typing dept and the reportage dept. One hour or two underwater...and off to the hotel!
Reminds me of War reporters holed up in a 4 star hotel in Bahgdad. Reporting from poolside or the balcony is testimony...but one that cannot purport beyond its limitation. Making money or hay off of tropicals without catchin em is kinda cool. But accurate...? Thats another story....
Hit and missing segments of the real thing and trying to fit pieces from convenient testimony and the available data...is at best a guess....and yes, a book report. Heck, thats what a lot of normal, conventional reporting is!
You all know how you feel when a news story gets it all wrong about aquarium stuff. I remember a cyanide story in the LA Times w/ a shot of tiger barbs as the lead image!
What if three "credible" sources about Sri Lanka for example outweighed a lone Liz Wood testimony? Might they not then win the day?

Would we then go to the wholly subjective notion of weighing credentials as if arguments from authority alone carried weight....beyond their substance.
"Credible sources" on this stuff is often about as big a false proposition as the term "reputable dealers".
Waiting for the rest of the world to catch up on what is lived by commercial folks every day is an amusing pastime and one that can be weighed and measured two minutes into an article.
However...unlike so many stories written in the dark, I commend you for doing this out in the open and in the freewheeling and freedom of speech loving atmosphere of RDO
Sincerely, Steve
PS...
The Marshalls? Taiwan? Sri Lanka? The Solomons? My goodness....
Barber, Pratt and Pajaro....what a sense of humor they had. :lol: