• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

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Anonymous

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GreshamH":10ba7rgr said:
dizzy":10ba7rgr said:
GreshamH":10ba7rgr said:
Huh, Bahtera LEStari and AMDA sure aren't, and I kinda don't think Mary is either, but hey, who knows :D Mitch, you still comitted?

I'm still a little dizzy and confused at times, but I haven't been committed yet, although I think there are times when my wife would like to. :wink: :lol:

Yah, I didn't think you'd be able to run a business from the loony bin, although, it sure seems like the gangs sure do a good job of running things from inside jail. Yah think AMDA is behind MAC :D Is AMDA pitching it to all their members, like it states on MACs site?

I don't think AMDA is pitching much of anything to their members these days. Although I got a renewal form for my $50 sticker in the mail the other day.
 
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Anonymous

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Yah, AMDA's site is as stagnent as MAC's :lol: When was the last newsletter put out?
 

clarionreef

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The new board is as follows:
President: Burton Patrick, Pittsburgh, PA
Vice-President: Morgan Lidster, Terra Haute, IN
Director-at-Large: Bruce Davidson, Lexington, KY
Secretary/Treasurer: Liz Harris, Madison, Florida



The new board is committed to bringing you current information on the status of the ornamental marine industry. We also want to inform you of reservations that we have in the direction that the industry is taking.



A lot has changed for AMDA during the past two years. We believe that the needs of the independent retailer can only be met if independent retailers are the primary officers in the organization. That has been accomplished. To date all current members of the AMDA board are retailers. Distributors, e-commerce merchants, and service organizations are "not on the same page" as we are. They don’t have the same investment in the community or financial commitments as we do either.



The local fish stores are the businesses that create interest in the aquarium hobby. Their passion for aquatics fuels the interest of new participants. They don’t just stock shelves. They educate. Big box stores with shelf stockers just sell “stuff”. They don't really provide education in the hobby or generate new interest. Shelf stockers do not stimulate the imagination. They just want to sell the stuff that turns and not create new business. In short they feed off what we do. We need to be recognized by distributor and manufacturer alike for what we do.



We encourage our members to be active in education throughout the community and in their everyday face to face conversation with their customers. We also recognize the contribution that local service organizations make to the hobby and encourage their participation in AMDA as well as those of the distributors and manufacturers that are committed to support the independent retailer. In AMDA, as a member, your voice will be heard and we would welcome it.



In order to strengthen our organization we want your input and we want you to be involved in the organization. Please send your views to [email protected]. This email address will go to all the directors of AMDA. We will publish all pertinent emails and our answers as they come.



We feel that the independent retailer needs representation. At this point in time, the American Marinelife Dealers Association is our only representation. You need to make sure government, manufacturers, and distributors hear your views. AMDA can help. In adding to the complexity of our business, we have other organizational types that want to control us. We will call these groups the self-appointed non-governmental official. The Marine Aquarium Council (MAC) and Reef Protection Institute (RPI) are two of the organizations in the forefront. Their stated mission is to save the reefs, provide sustainable yields, and improve husbandry. These are all commendable missions but in reality after millions have been spent very little has been done on any front and we certainly have not changed the ways of the chain-of-command between the reef and us. We will discuss some of these issues as this newsletter progresses.



The MAC and RPI are attempting to persuade us to follow them blindly under their rules. Currently their track record is dismal and they do not welcome criticism from anyone. If AMDA doesn’t communicate our concerns then who is going to speak for us since most of these organizations and proposed legislation is being focused against the American Retailer? Last year Steve Robinson, president of AMDA, went on a fact finding mission in the Philippines and Bali and found that the use of chemicals to poison fish is still rampant and all the public relations releases to the contrary will not change that. The emphasis is on paperwork even before the fishermen had the proper tools to learn to net catch fish. AMDA donated the first netting of quality they have had for years. Millions have been spent on a program with no improvement in handling and fish quality to speak of and they have accomplished very little except to engender distrust.



The MAMTI proposed legislation is trying to tie the mission of the MAC to Federal Law. MAMTI gives substance to the MAC and we would like to know how a bill in the US Congress has come about to make them boss. The mission is admirable and we support it, but we don’t accept the proposed management and proposed operational suggestions. They don’t make sense.



MAMTI represents legislation that is being introduced into congress and is known as the Marine Aquarium Market Transformation Initiative. This document can be found on the internet at:



www.gefweb.org/Documents/Work_Programs/ wp_Feb04/Bio_-_Regional_-_MAMTI_-_Project_Document.pdf.



The MAMTI proposal is 166 pages of jargon that seems to put the MAC as the controlling factor in importing fish into this country. Part of the proposed legislation would restrict all shipments of fish unless they are MAC certified. In another section of the proposed legislation they ultimately want to include freshwater fish. The web is being woven to allow the middlemen to push their way into jobs of power at our expense. The question now rises as to whether there is a for-profit organization being planned to take over the MAC in the future or are we being groomed to just pay for a top heavy organization of overpaid bureaucrats that do not have to provide accomplishments with their salary.



A copy of this newsletter will be sent to the Department of Agriculture to see what it is about these two groups that is so different that the Federal Fish and Wildlife Inspection Group could not be a part of the solution to the issues of reef degradation from inappropriate fishing techniques. It seems to us they already have the infrastructure to do that.

MAC: Their Activities
For this issue we want to tell you who is involved and what they are doing.



The Marine Aquarium Council was started by a handful of people with an idea. Their political position and stated goal is to save the reefs. Their funding was through grants from various organizations of which the main contributor was the Hewlett-Packard Foundation.



The long-term plan is to have the retailers (us) pay the bill for them to be the middlemen in charge of saving the reef. They are setting themselves up to be the judge and jury of who buys what and who sells what and to whom. Join them or perish in the long term is the veiled threat from people that represent them. It is our belief that this would add an additional level of bureaucracy to incoming fish shipments and so far we don’t see how that will result in any better fish coming into our shops.



Millions have been spent overseas with very little accomplished in the way of improving handling, shipping, and catch procedures. The focus in the United States is to get retailers to join and be certified by the MAC. The concept for certification is to feed the appearance that they are saving the reef problems with little progress being evident in the producing countries. In many cases they imply that the reef destruction is our fault even though our only function is buy the animals that are legally brought into the United States and have little or no say in anything that goes on between the source and our importer/distributors. We consider this to be a major fault of their plan. The problems have to be solved over there first.



It is the position of your AMDA board that the paperwork requirement for certifying fish is overly cumbersome and increases the in your face dogma from know-it-all bureaucrats that don't have to run a business. We believe that their focus of winning over the hobbyist is to force the retailers into submission through public opinion. In reality we don’t have anything to say about what happens in the Philippines or Indonesia. The logical place to begin the process of appropriate fishing techniques is to work with the importers who in turn could work with the authorities in the producing countries.



We believe that the source of production needs to be controlled by the sovereign nations in those areas, and if they need help then they should ask for it. What MAC wants to do is tax the incoming marine organisms to pay their expenses for implementation of their program. We believe this is fundamentally flawed logic. There has to be a better way. Why are we paying for them to use their own resource in a sustainable way?



The certification process for the US retailer has not proven viable at this point. We believe there are two reasons for this. The first problem is that the program is cumbersome and very time consuming and poorly structured. The second is that people, especially business people, are wary of middlemen, politicians, and people that want us to voluntarily give the future of our businesses to the bureaucrats. Abiding by the laws of the land is not our problem. The reality is that very few have joined up. A few stores have signed up as a political move in the hope that it will make good business sense. The ones that are certified are doing a lot of paperwork with very few or no certified fish coming into the country. It isn’t because we are not interested in environmentalism. We find a system that can send a certified fish from the source and have it arrive in the states with one dead fish or two out of a hundred turn into non-certified fish during shipment. If the dealer buys 10 fish and one dies and he has paid for a certified fish his fish are now non certifiable for a few days and can't be co-mingled with certified fish of the same species. There are other challenges with this as well. If more than a low percentage of fish die in transit then the species goes off the able to buy list. One list we saw put 200 species fish on the unable to ship list.



Somehow the governed needs to have a voice in this movement. To date we have been totally ignored. There is not one marine aquarium dealer with a community based store on MAC’s board. They are or have been service people for the most part or people that have never made their livelihood from owning aquarium stores.



We believe that the first focus for the MAC should have been to convince the producing countries to produce fish that are not chemical caught. Then they needed to improve handling procedures at the collection sites. The third thing would be to improve the airline priorities in moving fish from them to us. Once that has been accomplished and better fish are available we can define what has to go on in the US to ensure the best possible treatment for the fish while in our care, but right now it appears that the stores in this country provide the best care of the entire chain of command. Why start here?



The next priority would be to improve the handling at the distributor level in this country and get more cooperation from our domestic airlines. They need to quit handling our fish like a hot potato. And lastly, after everyone sees the benefits of the program and that the organization is there to help the industry get on track rather than just paying "nerdie" pragmatists that are merely high priced help to produce nothing, most retailers would be glad to follow. The result would be stronger fish with better immune systems and less disease.



On our end getting the hobbyist educated to take better care of the fish is absolutely mandatory and will be the focus for the last half of our term. The result will be less fish sold at a higher price to people that won't lose many fish which will further reduce the quantity of fish sold. The industry will change for sure, but it will result in a stronger hobby.



We would like to pose a few questions to the Marine Aquarium Council at this point in time.


1. How many overseas shippers have been certified and how many are left? Where are they? Who and how often are their inspections and when are the inspections made public?



2. How many fish per week are currently being shipped to the US that is certified by MAC and who do they go to?


3. Is it true that many certified fish are going to other countries? If it is true what percentage is being shipped to other countries?



4. How many importer/distributors in this country are certified and can we see their inspection reports and the qualifications of those that are inspecting those facilities? How do we know if certified fish are being co-mingled with non-certified fish?



5. How many US retail stores have been certified and what qualifications do the inspectors have to do this? How many retail stores have been certified in foreign countries? We would especially be interested in those countries receiving certified fish. We have heard that China is one of those countries. Are these fish being shipped to certified dealers?



6. What percentage of the financial burden of administering the program will be funded by US business and to whom does it go?

7. Why isn’t the US Fish and Wildlife Department a part of any of these initiatives since they already know the importing business and are a current legitimate arm of our government and a branch that I think has done a pretty good job and works with people to some extent?



8. Who will fund this program of so-called sustainable yield studies and who will do them? What has been done about sustainable yield programs to date? Are any of the overseas suppliers being charged for the services of the MAC?




9. Why are food fish excluded from the program since in terms of biomass food fish are the greatest amount of animals taken from the reefs? This is a major issue since the number of fish used as both food and aquarium fish is very large. For example all tangs are food fish as well as aquarium fish. Why is it that the program looks as if we are to blame for the destruction of the reefs and absolutely nothing has been done or said about the food gathering segment of the hunter gatherer fish collectors? There are a lot of fish being caught and sold alive to the Asian market. Why should the American consumer and the American retailer pay for these programs out of their pocket. This is more a function of foreign aid policy that should be sorted out between governments.



10. In a face to face conversation with 5 board members at the 2005 MACNA meeting and 3 at the 2004 IMAC, MAC officials told your board members that our concerns would not be taken into consideration and the program is the program and that was it. Our question is, “Why should we place the future of our businesses and the future of the hobby into hands of people that only listen to themselves?”



11. What are the connections between the people in the MAC and the proposed MAMTI legislation? If the proponents of MAMTI are saying there will be a connection there has to be some communications and plans being made.



OK, THATS ENOUGH FOR NOW.
lOOK AT YOU GUYS...ALL IN THE KOOL-AID, DON'T EVEN KNOW THE FLAVOR! :lol:
STEVE
 
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Well Mr Ex President, how come the newsletter hasn't been published since, what, 2003? And just why hasn't the website been updated since Jan 2003? Heck, even MAC is doing better then that ;)

So Burton shot his openning letter out :lol: , any other things happen with AMDA concerning talking to their membership or actions concerning the above letter?

FWIW, cool aid is just sugar water, empty calories (no substance ;) ), like MAC and AMDA ;)
 

clarionreef

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AMDA WAS A RUBBER STAMP FOR MAC'S STAMP COLLECTION A FEW YEARS AGO.

It sure ain't now!

The accord that AMDA brokered between CORL and MAC and itself occupied a good deal of the previous admin.

The accord had a good chance to become reality due to the desperate desire of now fired MAC Philippine co-ordinator....to get 1,000 divers trained .

The accord was rescinded by MAC [ largely due to the efforts of pro-MAC AMDA BOD members] and the lack of progress is whats left.

AMDA has since shed its MAC toadies....and remains independant to this day.

Now, it will never be taken again by leading with such good , but naive intentions.

Steve
 
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That has NOTHING to do with the last questions asked :roll: You do make a good politician though :lol:


Like I said, AMDA is just sugar water, just like MAC. It's not AMDA's fault, it's just reality with an all volunteer group with barely any money to work with run by people that all ready spend most waking hours working their own business.

AMDA's site is so outa date, if I mail the president, it goes to you Steve, not Burton :lol: Jan 2003 is not better then MAC's Nov 2004 web update :lol:
 

clarionreef

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Website service is an area that I'm not in touch with...[ I'm much more interested in dive-sites actually]
Still, I agree that the new folks should do one up.
Steve
 

Fish_dave

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Wow, this thread has grown fast. A couple of pages earlier Coralfarmin seemed to allude to the fact that the Solomon Islands export station was MAC certified. The start of this thread was something about re-ox on a tranship order that was MAC certified. For the record the Solomon Island Export station is not MAC certified nor is the importer of record for all shipments brought into the states so there is no way that Solomon Island product could possibly be MAC certified. I do not know who Coralfarmin is buying the Solomon product from (Maybe they are MAC certified) but it has passed through at least one set of hands after import and maybe is somehow magically becoming certified then.

I think that several years ago (like 7 or 8) almost everyone who reads this board was interested in becoming MAC certified. Several of us signed letters of intention to pursue that route. We all agreed that in theory it was good and that we did need to do something. Now looking at the reality of how things are turning out many have opted out of the certification. That is why you see many listings for commitment from folks that are now anti - MAC.

Dave
 

coralfarmin

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you are correct dave

as all the rest have stated also

I had made a "mistake"

they were only listed as commited not Certified

there was so much to read, I understand that being missed

thanks for the input
 
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cortez marine":2tsq83xg said:
Website service is an area that I'm not in touch with...

Nor does any other AMDA BOD member... or at least thats what it appears like, since no updates since Jan 2003.
 

clarionreef

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Dave wrote;
"I think that several years ago (like 7 or almost everyone who reads this board was interested in becoming MAC certified. Several of us signed letters of intention to pursue that route. We all agreed that in theory it was good and that we did need to do something."

But the momentuml was lost thru the mis-management of the MAC ship.
It was the biggest payroll and the biggest budget ever put behind reform and the result is actually on the way to net zero effect.

The lost ground during this eco-gold rush has lost us much reef acreage and goodwill. Sending divers back to cyanide fishing thru inept training attempts was especially galling to see.

Enlightened communities and businesses are doing far, far more to convert to sustainable practices then the group in question.
If MAC is out of the way, then the onus for reform can shift to people who actually know how to produce an get things done.
MAC has kept the trade lethargic with its "Let Joe do it syndrome?"
In fact, all reformers have been told repeatedly that their efforts meant nothing if they are not run thru Mac.
Steve
 

dizzy

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That's certainly a hard hitting letter by Burton. Burton is a pretty gutsy guy and I think he will be a good president for AMDA. I also think the rest of the board is composed of quality people. I think the true B&M retailers should support AMDA. AMDA may not be perfect, but I don't see any other organization asking those type of tough questions.
Mitch

I mean I think Burton wrote it. I seem to recognize the writting style. :wink:
 
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A lot has changed for AMDA during the past two years. We believe that the needs of the independent retailer can only be met if independent retailers are the primary officers in the organization. That has been accomplished. To date all current members of the AMDA board are retailers. Distributors, e-commerce merchants, and service organizations are "not on the same page" as we are. They don’t have the same investment in the community or financial commitments as we do either.



The local fish stores are the businesses that create interest in the aquarium hobby. Their passion for aquatics fuels the interest of new participants. They don’t just stock shelves. They educate. Big box stores with shelf stockers just sell “stuff”. They don't really provide education in the hobby or generate new interest. Shelf stockers do not stimulate the imagination. They just want to sell the stuff that turns and not create new business. In short they feed off what we do. We need to be recognized by distributor and manufacturer alike for what we do

:lol: :lol: :lol:


a bigger load of BS crap, self serving sweeping over generalizations i've yet to see :roll:


i know from first hand experience that the type of 'tailer' you are has nothing to do with your value to the environment, the community, both business and hobbyist, or is a reflection on the values you hold for anything

in fact, right now, the first 'etailer' i ever went to work for has every single B&M operation i've worked for beat hands down in ALL departments, (especially morality, both business and personal) after experiencing maybe a dozen plus B&M's since the late '70's, in two countries from retail to wholesale

the stance from amda seems to be nothing but more us vs them posturing that will lead nowhere, especially when the internet will be the future of their biz, whether they like it or not

get with the program! :lol:
 

dizzy

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vitz":p00ilm1w said:
the stance from amda seems to be nothing but more us vs them posturing that will lead nowhere, especially when the internet will be the future of their biz, whether they like it or not

get with the program! :lol:

What a crock.
 
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Steve, has that newsletter been posted or distributed anywhere?

ie Where did you get it?
 
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dizzy":1pvvbnra said:
vitz":1pvvbnra said:
the stance from amda seems to be nothing but more us vs them posturing that will lead nowhere, especially when the internet will be the future of their biz, whether they like it or not

get with the program! :lol:

What a crock.

it already is the future of all business-you just don't realize it yet :wink:


if you don't utilize it, it will still affect you, and is already :wink:


since when does the medium you choose to do business in determine your level of morality of how you conduct business?

the dichotomic, polar view that if your an e-biz, you're 'evil', and all b&m's are morally superior is a crock, and an infantile stance to take


amda has more than a few screws loose, imo
 

dizzy

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vitz":1ukmtass said:
the dichotomic, polar view that if your an e-biz, you're 'evil', and all b&m's are morally superior is a crock, and an infantile stance to take


amda has more than a few screws loose, imo

I can't even figure out what your talking about. Morgan Lidster is AMDA VP and he etails a lot. I don't know of any stores in this region that run e-commerse sites ( except Petco), and there are some damn good stores that have great businesses built up. It don't make sense to ship stuff across the country and then bag it up and ship it back out. Gas is just getting too high for such foolishness and all the extra handling is hard on the animals. E-tail will be for people in the points of entry or for people who are growing out or producing. Most B&M will not be able to compete in that market and will have to rely on service.
 
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A lot has changed for AMDA during the past two years. We believe that the needs of the independent retailer can only be met if independent retailers are the primary officers in the organization. That has been accomplished. To date all current members of the AMDA board are retailers. Distributors, e-commerce merchants, and service organizations are "not on the same page" as we are. They don’t have the same investment in the community or financial commitments as we do either.

er-this is what i was talking about

seeing as how you responded to me, i thought you realized what i was talking about
 
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dizzy":2kqtjj6z said:
vitz":2kqtjj6z said:
the stance from amda seems to be nothing but more us vs them posturing that will lead nowhere, especially when the internet will be the future of their biz, whether they like it or not

get with the program! :lol:

What a crock.

how so?

do you deny that the internet has already affected b&m retailers, and will more greatly affect the future of their business ?
 

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