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coralfarmin

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cant we all just work together as a team of trained professionals trying to acheive a collective goal???

could we all do this and still eat???

or is this business just to commericalized now?

or is this just a really dumb question that everyone already knows the answer to but me??

do we need to compete aginst each other or help each other?

do we need trade secerets?

can we all change the business norm?

would anyone want this but me in the industry?
 

JennM

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Speaking for myself, I've helped several others in the trade. I've talked at length with another shop owner in another city, helping him network to get his store going. I've spoken with several people over the years and I offer what little wisdom I have to impart.

Most of us are not willing to share livestock "secrets" because there is a finite amount of quality livestock to go around, and telling somebody else about it narrows one's own chances of scoring healthy livestock. However when it comes to dry goods, plumbing advice, merchandising, advertising and other matters of "business" I've had plenty of help from others, and I've helped plenty.

I'm easy to get along with. So are most others that I've met.

Jenn
 

Dr. Mac1

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coralfarmin,
I don't think it is different in this industry than in most others. If someone works hard and goes through a lot of trial and error over a period of years and finally reaches some modest level of success they are not likely going to just hand that experience off to the latest upstart when their own livelihood would be at stake. Having said that, healthy competition is one thing and nastiness is another and that is what many conversations on this and other boards seem to decline into usually leading to no real progress on many important issues. Trying to have an industry organization here in this forum will never work, there are some out there and if you choose normal face to face meetings and networking then you may get some of the info you seek but to expect to type on a keyboard and get instance experience from this or any forum is a bit much to expect. Yes, there is enough business for everyone out there and we do not have to bash each other but when I see threads on here like "hey, where do you all get your cherry corals from" it is really quite laughable to expect any legitimate answers and thats not being nasty that is reality and survival.
 

dizzy

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IME no one wholesaler has a lock on getting in good corals. If your a legimate retailer visit 104th St and make the rounds. Having friends on the inside certainly doesn't hurt, but it's the biggest buyers that wholesalers love the most, and who could blame them really. You could be a relatively new player like say Petco and most wholesalers will bend over backwards to get your business. In this business and in all business money talks and bull shite walks. My advice is to find one or two wholesalers you like and build a good relationship with them. If you can't make a living selling ordinary stuff to the public where are you going to be when things get tough?
Mitch
 

coralfarmin

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well said all
thanxs
I have plenty of contacts now :)
I actualy dont think there is any I dont know now.
These were retorical questions I just was wondering what type response I'd get from others here...if any..
I know the more money you got the better you'll be treated just about anywhere..but was unsure how others here felt about trade secerts and such..I quess there really isnt much u can keep secert in this business..long..anyway
 

coralfarmin

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Dr mac
I have the utmost respect for you and you have been one of my idols for a long time
But I do have to disagree with the industry forum not being productive
I have learned alot of good and bad about people and the industry here
 

JennM

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Well, again, speaking for myself...

I'm nobody's biggest customer, and it's not likely I'll ever be. However I pick and choose my suppliers carefully and support them as best I can. Wish I could buy from all of them each week, but I'm just a small outfit.

However, having said that, I feel I have good relationships with them, even if I go months without an order for any particular vendor, I tend to go in cycles (or I guess my customers do... ) and I feel I get a fair proportion of "cherries" (I'm growing to hate that word). The vendors I work with seem to appreciate my business, and I'm duly rewarded. Of course I tend to work with other small mom and pop type places, so perhaps that's why. I felt rather anonymous with the big vendors.

As always, JMHO

Jenn
 

Dr. Mac1

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Thanks for the kind words, but I don't know that I or anyone in this industry should be looked upon as an idol, no one I know of at least. Hey, we are all just folks trying to make a living. Some do it a more old fashion way and others want to speed the process. As far as this forum and any other online, it occupies time, you may occasionally learn a bit, but solve any real problems, not a chance from what I have seen and I tend to do a lot of lurking about. Sorry, no offense to any individual but just check a few threads and you will see almost every one decline rapidly into battling egos, there really are a lot of big egos in this industry, but hey I guess it is that way in every industry---some choose to play the game and other just want to make a living and stay quiet.

Ya know the best way to learn the answer to all the questions you have posed recently on this forum, get a job in the industry at the wholesale level and you will learn more in a few months than this forum will ever teach you.
 

coralfarmin

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DM
thanks for your possitive support
I still have you as #1 on my list of idols even though you do wholesale and retail..heck thats what I want to do as well now..like everyone else on the east coast
I rember when you just had a website and did not even sell coral to my knowledge
You had a huge clam that I lusted after in a small tank connected to your larger system
if I remeber correct
thanxs agin
unless you or treeman will give me a job ....the advice you give on workin for a wholesaler is out the question :lol: I'll just have to do like you guys and chance it
 
A

Anonymous

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As far as this forum and any other online, it occupies time, you may occasionally learn a bit, but solve any real problems, not a chance from what I have seen and I tend to do a lot of lurking about. Sorry, no offense to any individual but just check a few threads and you will see almost every one decline rapidly into battling egos, there really are a lot of big egos in this industry, but hey I guess it is that way in every industry---some choose to play the game and other just want to make a living and stay quiet.

The more people who pipe up, the less battling egos we seem to have. Glad you are participating, don't stay too quiet. ;)
 

naesco

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Livestock sources, pricing and other competive issues can and should be private.

However, those issues that deal with the proper care, transport, sustainability should be willingly and freely shared by all industry.
When it come to ensuring that livestock on the unsuitable species list (USL) are not imported, the best shipment is available and the best of care is taken at industry facilities, there is no other option.
 

coralfarmin

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naesco
this thread was mainly inspired by me reading several others threads, with well known people here constantly attacking them ...and atempting to discourage,belittle and undermind laymen at almost every opertunity they get..imo
 

naesco

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Rover":mcekuco7 said:
As far as this forum and any other online, it occupies time, you may occasionally learn a bit, but solve any real problems, not a chance from what I have seen and I tend to do a lot of lurking about. Sorry, no offense to any individual but just check a few threads and you will see almost every one decline rapidly into battling egos, there really are a lot of big egos in this industry, but hey I guess it is that way in every industry---some choose to play the game and other just want to make a living and stay quiet.

The more people who pipe up, the less battling egos we seem to have. Glad you are participating, don't stay too quiet. ;)


Right on, eh!
 

CarribeanLovers

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The reason why businesses stay quiet is because this industry is very cut throat. You can't give up your secrets as a business owner wether you are wholesale or retail or you could loose business to a competitor. Helping with things such as info on shipping, care, etc. is fine because it is mainly a common practice but giving up suppliers and such just doesn't work. A lot of us in the industry worked very hard and long hours to get the info we have and it isn't fair for a new person to come along and just get handed info that we had to work for. This business is mainly run by a who you know system and it takes time. It took us 2 years to get info we needed and we are still working on it. We've wasted a lot of money and time working on this so it makes it really hard to want to give up our "secrets". This type of industry runs on secrets and probably always will. About the only way you will get info is from someone who isn't in the business anymore or from someone that knows they won't get "hurt" with the info they are giving. They will also give info on suppliers and such that are not recommendable. Just my 2 cents:)
 

Dr. Mac1

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I don't know that there are really all that many secrets. I can buy from the same suppliers as anyone else on this forum and get completely different results, maybe better and maybe worse.

Part of the issue really is whether you are a long term buyer with enough buying power to get your share of the good stuff and make enough off the good stuff to suffer through all the undesirable junk, of course then you get accused of inflating prices when you charge more for the cherries than the average stuff---see for examples: Acanthastreas, Blue zoos, really cherry Acros, etc. But, even then you are at the mercy of your suppliers and what they get in, whatever they get you will get--junk or not--long term customer or not sometimes.

What most hobbyists never realize or care to understand is that we for the most part can not just place an order for xyz items and receive just xyz items, we are dealing with living animals harvested from the ocean and not screws and bolts or something that is manufactured. I am as quilty as anyone in getting annoyed and downright nasty when my suppliers don't come through week after week, but that really is the nature of this business---there is no real consistency.

Grow your own you might say---well, for the most part many hobbyists are not willing to, or interested in, buying captive raised if it will cost much more than wild collected, so for the time being we will be at the mercy of whatever comes in--good or bad--from week to week.

One problem for retailers is that everything flows down to that level, good and bad stock comes in to LA and it will go out, regardless it will be sent out to retailers whether asked for or not--what comes in must go out if they are to survive---that is a fact. Retailers often can not sell the stuff wholesalers choose to just send us that is undesirable and not asked for (now I know not all wholesalers do this, but many do send items not asked for and are totally unsellable), so it winds up sitting and eventually dieing in our tanks or given away at little or no profit and that is not what we are in business to do, bottomline is we must make a profit just like everyone else. Bad stock being sent out will always happen despite any undesirable lists or proposed reforms, etc. It is the nature of dealing with live animals collected in remote islands. Now, if by some miracle, the mass of retailers could come together and change how the collection and wholesale end of the industry works that would be nice, however as you see in thread after thread here in this forum so many different folks have so many different perspectives and interests at all the different levels that real change does not occur except some chest pounding, etc. So, what happens is those that think they have figured it all out and they have secrets become very protective of what they think is secret info, when in reality it is a very dynamic situation and not static anyway--so todays secrets are tomorrow's trash. Once I think I have a really special and great list of suppliers, "my secrets", the very next shipment I get slaped me back into reality.

There is no interest by me, and I think most folks here, to belittle newcomers. The issue is that we are all really continual newbies---again, the situation is so fluid that what I thought was secret info yesterday is not any good or "secret" today. And, what many of us see when the latest newcomer gets on this forum is that their attitude is something like---"OK, I'm here and I'm going to change it all, you folks have never done it this way and by god I think this way will work, lets just get all together and we can force it to get better". Many of us, I think, just sit back and think to ourselves, OK heeeere's another one. That's really not a put down, just that reality will hit soon enough and that experience will be your best teacher, certainly not what any of us tells you on this forum. Put some time in, spend some money and have it vanish with no return, and at times actually make some profits and do all the other things a real business does to get up and going and the "secrtes" just come on there own and what is a secret to me very well would be junk to you and vise versa.
 

naesco

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So, Dr. Mac you refer in your recent post about some of the problems your industry faces. You state that you are looking for a miracle to clean up your own industry.

Why don't you show some leadership? Change what needs to be changed.

1. Stop the unacceptable practice of substituting unsuitable species (fill) for orders placed by retailers.

2. Seek and implement measures that give the fish/coral a chance in transit.

3. OUT those in the industry who don't give a damn.

4. Stop the trade in cyanide fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where its use is rampant.

5. Stop the sale of unsuitable species which have no chance of success in hobbyists tanks.

It is no enough for you to say that it would be nice to see some reeform.
DO something about it! Show some leadership, please.
 

JennM

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naesco":3fcg132z said:
So, Dr. Mac you refer in your recent post about some of the problems your industry faces. You state that you are looking for a miracle to clean up your own industry.

Why don't you show some leadership? Change what needs to be changed.

1. Stop the unacceptable practice of substituting unsuitable species (fill) for orders placed by retailers.

2. Seek and implement measures that give the fish/coral a chance in transit.

3. OUT those in the industry who don't give a damn.

4. Stop the trade in cyanide fish from the Philippines and Indonesia where its use is rampant.

5. Stop the sale of unsuitable species which have no chance of success in hobbyists tanks.

It is no enough for you to say that it would be nice to see some reeform.
DO something about it! Show some leadership, please.

Gee Wayne, it's so very easy for you to pontificate from your law office. :roll: We've challenged you before to work in the trade yourself for a while and see what YOU can do to change the world.

I think any ethical dealer does his or her best to change what they can, and Dr. Mac's post was awesome. But I think you missed his point altogether.

Well said, once again, Dr. Mac.

Jenn
 
A

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JennM":6f0ixbcs said:
But I think you missed his point altogether.

This is the first time this year I've looked in the industry forum and actually read a whole thread.

Same ol' Naesco...he never EVER changes. Too bad.

Peace,

Chip
 

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