Aquarium Reform

[Anonymous]

Why the big need to reform just the salt water side? Any idea what the average doa is on a large freshwater shipment?

 

[MaryHM]

72%

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds scientific.

 

[JT]

Any idea what the average doa is on a large freshwater shipment?

I've never worked on the freshwater side, but isn't a larger portion (compared to SW) of the livestock farmed/captive raised?

 

[MaryHM]

Yeah. I used the same process major NGO's and scientists use.

I agree with JT here- I think most of the FW is farmed nowdays. Of course, there's still some wild caught, but I don't know the percentages. Either way, it's harder to rally people behind "saving" a lake or river. Much easier to rally people behind colorful, exciting coral reefs.

 

[Anonymous]

My point exactly. SO it's okay to kill lots of farmed fish, but not wild caught. Assuming because of the impact on the reef. All the more reason to focus on the collection and wild impact, and avoid the DOA% game. Does it really matter?

 

[MaryHM]

If the collection is sustainable, then it does not matter. Do I like to see dead fish? No, and not just because of the profit factor. But if the animals are harvested sustainably, the DOA shouldn't be a factor. This discussion actually was broached when I first started this forum. My husband and I had differing views. I came around to his way of thinking.

 

[Anonymous]

Again my point exactly. If the Philippines and Indonesian collection practicesa re reformed to the point where they are sustainable, what further reform is necessary that won't happen through normal market place demands? (ie shipping and handling, and disease control).

And they can reform their trade however they want at whatever cost, right?

 

[kylen]

I have been told by one of the owners of a larger FW wholesale company in Canada that the mortality that is seen in that facility is over 30%. Straight from the horse's mouth. You think our side of the industry is bad?

 

[keethrax]

Why the big need to reform just the salt water side? Any idea what the average doa is on a large freshwater shipment?

I opened boxes for a LFS for a while, and it very much depended on the fish.

For any of thee big voulme fish it was pretty high. Especailly because you can fit an awful lot of tetras in one box, and small fish tend to (but arent' always) more fragile fish as far as sruviving after the stress.

We hade huge mortalties in neons/cardinals/etc call it 10%-30% for an "average" ship[ment, and sometimes upwards of 50% with another 10-15% DAA. (these weree boxes with *lots* of fish in them. Those are relatively fragile fish that get sold in high volume. In most other cases they high volume fish tend to be tougher (mollies, platies, etc) and so they survived better, or the more fragile fish tended to be more expensive and thus lower volume fish.

Now this was almost 7-8 years ago, and a middle of nowheree LFS so it's old (and from memory a long ways back), anecdoatal, and our transport time was probably extra high.

We had comparable mortalities on marine and the more expensive freshwater fish (more expensive just being more than $1-2 retail). The only ones that tended to take big hits were some of the high volume stuff, and like I said especailly the weaker/smaller tetras.

 

[keethrax]

I have been told by one of the owners of a larger FW wholesale company in Canada that the mortality that is seen in that facility is over 30%. Straight from the horse's mouth. You think our side of the industry is bad?

We saw mortalities like that, primarily in the tetra's. And since they made up a very largee proportion of the fish we sold, that probably means it works out about right even though the rest of the species didn't tend to (for the most part) do near taht bad. This was at ta primarily LFS (though we did actually do some wholesale work as well, mainly in the tetras, which is why I'm more familiar with their numbers).

But for me the issue is environmental impact, not dead fish, and lots of FW stuff is farmed.

 

[Anonymous]

the main reason for the higher mortality rates of fw bread 'n butter, high volume species (like some tets, guppies, etc) is due more to severe inbreeding and over medication of stock on the farms they're raised in


once you understand that, it's quite easy to minimize losses by using some common sense proactive treatments/protocols

i can think of mebbe only 3-4 species that i could not reduce the daa #'s on, re: the 'desirable', well selling species

those problems were sometimes solved by switching suppliers


there is absolutely NO reason why a shipment of 1k neons should have more than 50 daa's (within first week), and 50 doa's

some of the ops in the far east were the only problem source, including some of those species that are first flown here, from the far east

anyone remember the fw 'angelfish virus' of the '80's ? :wink:

 

[dizzy]

Good news guys. MAMTI plans on cleaning up the freshwater fish supply in the future. It is there in black and white. I believe it's salt-food-fresh. In that order. What a powerful organization they are destined to become.
Mitch

 

[Rikko]

It varies a lot from shipper to shipper. I've opened many a bag of 100% DOA plecos because 50 were crammed into about a half gallon of water and transshipped. Duh? DAA isn't as much of an issue (I'll call it a DAA after fish have been acclimated and in the holding tanks for over an hour) - though the dwarf gourami species seem to be terrible. I've got a few flames left in the store that are going one by one to *something* and no amount of meds or water changes is having any effect.

Some species just shouldn't be shipped either - cardinal tetras and rummy noses come to mind.. It's ridiculous that we keep ordering them in hopes of getting a "good box" while we throw away all those lives for profit.

Not to mention the species that are individually packed in about 50mL of water - like tiger barbs. It's so frustrating to open them up as fast as possible to find the ones where they didn't seal the bag properly and all the water drained.

I don't claim to have much of a perspective on the SW side of retail, but FW I *do* know and I'm in favour of anything that will curb the waste.
Shutting down Petco/Petsmart/Petceteras would help, too.. But that's a troll for another thread.

 

[Anonymous]

It varies a lot from shipper to shipper. I've opened many a bag of 100% DOA plecos because 50 were crammed into about a half gallon of water and transshipped. Duh? DAA isn't as much of an issue (I'll call it a DAA after fish have been acclimated and in the holding tanks for over an hour) - though the dwarf gourami species seem to be terrible. I've got a few flames left in the store that are going one by one to *something* and no amount of meds or water changes is having any effect.

Some species just shouldn't be shipped either - cardinal tetras and rummy noses come to mind.. It's ridiculous that we keep ordering them in hopes of getting a "good box" while we throw away all those lives for profit.

Not to mention the species that are individually packed in about 50mL of water - like tiger barbs. It's so frustrating to open them up as fast as possible to find the ones where they didn't seal the bag properly and all the water drained.

I don't claim to have much of a perspective on the SW side of retail, but FW I *do* know and I'm in favour of anything that will curb the waste.
Shutting down Petco/Petsmart/Petceteras would help, too.. But that's a troll for another thread.

now here's a classic illustration of how the doa/daa issue is such an impossible one to get a handle on w/a phone survey


last place i worked in we hardly ever had a problem w/rummy noses, but dwarf rasboras we couldn't keep for over 24 hrs-the rasboras are small (very small) but are available only in very high pack densities

i stopped pleco doa by calling supplier and firmly requesting the pack be limited to 10-15/bag for more exotic specimens

many plecos also come in starving(royals and other panaques) the key, if there's no suffocation issue from the pack, is to immediately get 'em feeding on nice soft easily digestible foods w/good veggie matter-same holds true for the oddball bristlenoses

we stopped huge livebearer losses simply by running ac's at nite-constant warm summer night were whackin them-checking temps when opening the store solved that one

there are so many possible causes, and so many differences between which stores have problems w/which species, that i doubt any ONE factor could be singled out as a primary cause for anything especially given that each store's protocol, husbandry methodology, are always going to be slightly different, if not very different

the 5 retailers i've worked in since '95 all had completely different setups, acclimation policies/procedures, staf education levels, general husbandry/maintenance procedures, so as to make any pretense of a 'control' against which to measure ludicrous, re: representative of the industry as an avg for anything

 

[naesco]

Again my point exactly. If the Philippines and Indonesian collection practicesa re reformed to the point where they are sustainable, what further reform is necessary that won't happen through normal market place demands? (ie shipping and handling, and disease control).

And they can reform their trade however they want at whatever cost, right?

BINGO

IF you get rid of cyanide the major issue is solved.

But to get rid of cyanide you need to close down the cyanide cartel. Those that bring in boatloads of cheap cyanide caught fish and sell them at too good to be true prices online. These importers and their Philippine/Indonesian suppliers are the bane of the industry today and must be stopped before the whole industry is brought to its knees by the adoption of BILL 4928

Were I in industry I would hold a meeting with these boys and tell them the jigs up. If they gave me the bird, I would immediately phone the authorities and press charges against them.
Industry must end why Mary has called "Its dirty little secrets" or it is over Rover

 

[keethrax]

Again my point exactly. If the Philippines and Indonesian collection practicesa re reformed to the point where they are sustainable, what further reform is necessary that won't happen through normal market place demands? (ie shipping and handling, and disease control).

And they can reform their trade however they want at whatever cost, right?

BINGO

IF you get rid of cyanide the major issue is solved.

But to get rid of cyanide you need to close down the cyanide cartel. Those that bring in boatloads of cheap cyanide caught fish and sell them at too good to be true prices online. These importers and their Philippine/Indonesian suppliers are the bane of the industry today and must be stopped before the whole industry is brought to its knees by the adoption of BILL 4928

Were I in industry I would hold a meeting with these boys and tell them the jigs up. If they gave me the bird, I would immediately phone the authorities and press charges against them.
Industry must end why Mary has called "Its dirty little secrets" or it is over Rover

How does that logical leap work? Sustainable collection and cyanide are two seperate issues.

Are you capable of logical connections/rational thought? Heck maybe it's me that isn't, so feel free to explian the connection between the post you quoted and yours.

 

[naesco]

The destruction of coral reef habitats by cyanide fishers result in reduction of sustainable yields of reef MO.

 

[Anonymous]

Read the post. If you still do not understand it, PM me and I will lay it out for you

well, i read it and i don't get your leap of logic either, though i think it would be better if you explained it HERE, on the same forum you wrote the original post to begin with :wink:

 

[JennM]

Just one question, Wayne...

If you are so hell-bent on industry reform, why have you not changed careers and taken work in the industry so you can put all your effort into something more than just postings on this forum?

You said,

Were I in industry I would hold a meeting with these boys and tell them the jigs up. If they gave me the bird, I would immediately phone the authorities and press charges against them.

So why aren't you in the industry? It's easy to say, "what if"... but it's a whole other thing to actually DO.

I've challenged you before, I challenge you again... and this is NOT a personal attack, I'm simply asking you to follow through on all your good intentions... If you think you can be effective in reforming the industry from within, then you owe it to the reefs, to take it on and do it.

Join the industry and fix it.

Jenn