The Study

[Frank Lallo]

Well folk's,
We can do this one of 2 ways for this point on.

1) Anyone that is truly interest in the rest of the data can send me an e-mail address and i will be glad to send it via e-mail.

2) I can just hand all the data over to fish & wildlife, peta, pjac, greenpeace and any Democrat looking for an issue. They certianly need it. My top 2 picks would be Greenpeace & fish & wildlife service. We can see just how funny they think it's and will let them decide if it is all a hox !.

I will let you folks decide.

 

[Anonymous]

Do not give up!
David
_________________
Honda CBR series

 

[Anonymous]

Frank, wow, it just a few short weeks you flame out like this? Sorry to hear it, I really thought you were going to be able to shed some other perspective on reform. I think you've got WAY more to contribute then the above post. You did, however, ask until you turned blue in the face, that every wait until the data is posted until the replied. It was going quit slow, I think your email idea is better. They'll have a full picture then, not little snipits. What you did, I'm sure was extremelly time consuming and I wouldn't wish it on my enemy. I don't see the conspiricy that others keep saying, but the data so far doesn't jive with our expereince.

 

[Frank Lallo]

Na, I will keep chugging along as the rest have for so many years. Whats got me is that most of the na sayer's I have spoken to on the phone. What they are posting here and telling me in private are too completely different stories altogether. I didn't expect for everybody to agree nor did I expect my data which is a sampling of the entire country to match there's, a single store or wholesaler. As usual people only here want they want to here and throw out the rest. In a conversation with Steve a few days ago we talked about Damsels (Blue) this supposedly so hardy wonder fish. As steve has seen with his own two eyes. How many Damsels had to be caught to get the numbers seen here in the US. His quote to me on the phone was "If they all really knew how many were sacraficed at the expense of the few that make it here. I beleave his estimate in that conversation was for every 8 to 10k that make it here alive 50k were killed. When looking at numbers in this case 5% looks pretty damn good on paper and will keep people happy. But the fact that 40k were killed just to get 10k things are not looking so good after all.

Frankie

 

[MaryHM]

I for one hope you will continue to post it here. Having people question your data is not a bad thing- not if it stands up to scrutiny. I think many of us are just trying to understand why there are so many apparent discrepancies with what you are reporting and what we experience everyday. If you can't cope with a little constructive criticism, then this forum is not the place for you. I've been called every name in the book here for standing by my beliefs, but I still shout them from the rooftops. If you are firm in your convictions that your data is correct, then I would urge you to stay and help us hammer out the hows and whys of the situation. Or if you prefer to post the data, step back, and let us all hash it out amongst ourselves that's fine too. Anyway, at least it's a nice distraction from the "M" word.

 

[Frank Lallo]

Points well taken Mary, But as I have asked until i was blue in the face wait until it is all posted. Then we can do the Q & A on it. I can't sit here all day long aswering question's, posting data, answering phone calls among other things. In reference to your comment on the ribbons it also stuck me. In an effort to answer these questions I placed a few calls & send some e-mails out. When I get what I need to answer the question if I can even get anything I will pass it on. But I can't do it all at one time. What I did do for you in order to answer your question about the ribbons is call a company in Japan & one in Papua New Guinea and will place another two in the morning.

Frankie

 

[John_Brandt]

Well folk's,
We can do this one of 2 ways for this point on.

1) Anyone that is truly interest in the rest of the data can send me an e-mail address and i will be glad to send it via e-mail.

2) I can just hand all the data over to fish & wildlife, peta, pjac, greenpeace and any Democrat looking for an issue. They certianly need it. My top 2 picks would be Greenpeace & fish & wildlife service. We can see just how funny they think it's and will let them decide if it is all a hox !.

I will let you folks decide.

What a stupid schoolboy threat that is!

Only Greenpeace will take you halfway seriously, and they will immediately identify you as a blind lacky that they can put at the front of a Zodiac aimed straight for a whaling ship.

Your "survey" wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell in Washington DC as a platform for any legitimate position. As MASNA's Legislation Representive I can guarantee you that I would spend quality time with all of my personal contacts in the US Government intelligently explaining how your numbers have little correlation to reality. Even taken in the temporal context of 1997 or earlier, your numbers only look like "the worst case scenario".

Right now the little RDO crowd is entertaining your posting of this "data", but out in the sunlight of the real world your survey is pretty worthless as a piece of truth.

 

[dizzy]

Hey John,
Maybe that MBA student that did the Retailer Cost/Benefit study for the MAC can take Frank's data and "clean it up".

 

[John_Brandt]

Hey John,
Maybe that MBA student that did the Retailer Cost/Benefit study for the MAC can take Frank's data and "clean it up".

Mitch, in fact that retailer cost/benefit study includes a highly-detailed mortality survey of hundreds of species. But the survey is for a single retailer. I have not forgotten about your request for details on this survey but there are about 40 pages of data that I would have to disseminate just for you.

 

[kylen]

I would like to ask one question. How many of the stores that were polled are still in business today?

 

[Frank Lallo]

Mitch & John.
Well which is it you two. John says he doesn't have a study. You Mitch say he does, twice in two days in fact. Lets get your stories straight here.....Either you have one or you don't ?

Frankie

 

[kylen]

John,

Disseminate that data for everyone for the MAC cost benefit study. I've looked at what MAC has presented and it looks kind of over optimistic to me, IMO. That study, I think, makes a lot of assumptions that probably won't hold up in the "real" world.

 

[dizzy]

Frankie,
The MAC Retailer Cost/Benefit study was designed to show dealers how much additional profit they would make by switching to MAC fish. There would have to be some DOA information included, but the four stores in the study are afraid of being "blackballed or sued" I guess. :wink: It is very easy to post numbers when the people who gave the numbers do not make themselves available for comments.

 

[John_Brandt]

John,

Disseminate that data for everyone for the MAC cost benefit study. I've looked at what MAC has presented and it looks kind of over optimistic to me, IMO. That study, I think, makes a lot of assumptions that probably won't hold up in the "real" world.

Fundamentally is assumes (all projections are assumptions, after all) that MAC Certified fish experience less than 1% DOA/DAA, and that a retail store builds an inventory of MAC Certified fish to a level of 100% over time.

It profiled 4 stores, one of which kept highly-detailed mortality records on computer along with costs of those fish. It was a simplistic (but time-consuming) plug-in to bring mortalities to under 1% and costs somewhat higher.

 

[John_Brandt]

Frankie,
The MAC Retailer Cost/Benefit study was designed to show dealers how much additional profit they would make by switching to MAC fish. There would have to be some DOA information included, but the four stores in the study are afraid of being "blackballed or sued" I guess. :wink: It is very easy to post numbers when the people who gave the numbers do not make themselves available for comments.

The DOA/DAA numbers from the store that kept highly-detailed records was not a verbal submission. They punched in a request to their own computer database to give the prior year's DOA/DAA and it just spit out the spreadsheet (detailed by species).

 

[kylen]

I guess when one brings their DOA/DAA from 60% to ~1% it may work :wink: .

I assume that a large portion of their fish are from PI or Indo. I look at other areas that are not currently certified and have an excellent record WRT mortality (ie Hawaii). The overall loss of fish can't be that high to make a large impact on profit.

This is where charging a premium may become difficult. I can speak on the market in Vancouver, where we have the lowest fish prices in N. America. If a hobbiest knows that yellow tangs are net caught, why would they buy one from a store charging a premium because it's certified? They will go to the store where it is $22 CAD and non-certified.

 

[John_Brandt]

I guess when one brings their DOA/DAA from 60% to ~1% it may work :wink: .

I assume that a large portion of their fish are from PI or Indo. I look at other areas that are not currently certified and have an excellent record WRT mortality (ie Hawaii). The overall loss of fish can't be that high to make a large impact on profit.

This is where charging a premium may become difficult. I can speak on the market in Vancouver, where we have the lowest fish prices in N. America. If a hobbiest knows that yellow tangs are net caught, why would they buy one from a store charging a premium because it's certified? They will go to the store where it is $22 CAD and non-certified.

Kyle,

This particular store projected out DAA to 1 year. The average DOA/DAA for this store is nowheres near 60%. Keep in mind it's a single store. They had many species that had an average DOA/DAA of 0%. There were a number of species that had a DOA/DAA of 100%. For example, they brought in 1 Achille's tang and it died within a week - so their average DOA/DAA (1 year) for Achille's tangs is 100%. They brought in a total of 65 Yellow-tail damsels and 8 were DAA within a week - so their average (1 year) for Yellow-tail damsels was 12%.

 

[John_Brandt]

This store's most numerous species was the blue damsel. Over 1 year they brought in 116 of them, 10 of them were DAA within a week. That means a 9% mortality for their most numerous species.

They brought in 28 Green chromis, all 28 were DAA within 1 week for a 100% mortality on that species.

 

[Kalkbreath]

What happened to the 60% DOA crap? ...........70% of fish imported worldwide in number are damsels{clownfish} with 6% DOA ....that alone means the remaining fish species will need to come in a 90% DOA to average 60% for the lot....... As I eat my dried gobies Asian snack food........ that I purchased from the Asian Market two stores down from me.........I realize that inside this ONE bag of bite sized snacks..........there are more dartfish in this one bag then my store sells per month.{hundreds}............and there are hundreds of bags of these dried whole fish snacks inside this Asian market ...{and this is Atlanta Ga. not China}.......................If one wants to stress that hobby collectors killing live coral with cyande is a bad thing then fine..........but to blame this hobby for missing fish in PI is to ignore the fact that other fishermen collect more fish in one week then this hobby collects in a year.......There are reefs in other countries that have never had any hobby collection and these reefs are missing fish as well ....The reason hobby fish are missing on some of the reefs in PI is the same reason NON hobby fish are missing..............and its NOT because the missing brown grunts are in great demand by American hobbyists...............The 60% DOA stunt was just that ..........Now we have the "one million fish are killed for every one fish sold " crap .........Next please :wink:

 

[Frank Lallo]

Kylen,
I have n idea how many of these stores are still in busness. From the data I hope 20% of them at least are gone that alone would improve the numbers.

Frankie