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naesco

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Unsuitable Species List

John Tulloch list of impossible to keep species was presented to this forum for discussion. This evoked comment from industry, reefers experience and caused further research to be done on the species to be presented with comments from other authors like Robert Fenner, Scoot Michael etc.

How do we as a forum determine which species are or not on the list?

Having confirmed the list or amended it, what do we do next?

I think we need to determine this before we start focusing on how we can assist industry to improve its image in other areas.
 

jake levi

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I would suggest devising a protocol in which it is in the business's best interests $-wise to adhere
to following the lists reccommendations. This would have to be a multi-pronged approach in educating the hobbyists as to what has some liveability, and the retailers and the distributors/importers in providing them. If, the message can be gotten across that it is bad economics/unethical business to import/sell the 'unsuitables' the situation becomes almost self curing.

Its a massive education effort judging just from the general reef board here and the questions asked after the fact of purchasing an unsuitable.

OTOH, educating the retailers/importers might be more plausible in dealing with a far fewer number of individuals. If, the lists can be established,
'approved' by 'known names' in the industry, and then picked up by the media, and info boards such as this one, that the sale of 'X species' is bad business because of poor livability/suitability, and therefore also unethical in selling something that is known to have poor survivability/suitability then you have a starting point to educate the retailers and mass marketers.

Once the point is recognized by the 'points of sale' that to deal in 'X' identifies them as
unethical you have some leverage. Add to that the arguement that if they sell the animals from the suggested lists that they are looking out for their customers and can so advertise that and you have an appeal that can bring them more business besides minimizing their own mortalities from the unsuitable list.

I suggest submitting the lists developed to such as Ron Shimek, Rob Toonen, Skip Moe and others and you have a good place to begin on the point of sales educating. I can think of at least a dozen good ones to submit the lists to, once they are developed. As a matter of fact Skip is revising one of his better known books right now and I feel reasonably certain that he would include a chapter in it on exactly this. Did I hear Eric also say he is working on a new one?

Couple these with some articles in the hobby mags and some in Pet Age and other industry mags and its a start. But it will always be a continuing effort. The indication as to how/if it works will be if it impacts the bottom line. If it makes money it will work, if it doesnt it will be forgotten even before its known.

It has to be an overal marketing package that says
responsible treating of the environment is good
business.
 

Mouse

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Im so tired of hearing what can't be placed in a reef tank. Why dont we concentrate on building an exhaustive list of what can be kept. Im sure reefers would find a list like this far more appealing. Then we can figure out how we can research new subjects, and include them into the list with comments of special requirements.

At least this way people can look at a list they know is safe and choose one. Rather than looking around and finding a fish and having to check to see if you cant keep it. And what if the list isn't completely exhaustive for unsuitable fish, is everyone then to assume that the fish is suitable if its not on the list. At least with a list based around what you can keep, it would be reasonable to assume that if its not there then its not advaiseable to keep. And it would also create a forum for people to document their success pioneering new species.

[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Mouse ]</p>
 

jake levi

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Mary has been developing both suitable and unsuitable lists right here for all to see. Between them they make up a pretty large number of the species available.

However, if the aquarist has seen a species offered for sale that has also been publicized on
the 'unsuitable lists' he already knows something about the seller, that they are more interested in a buck then the aquarists wellbeing and that they would be well advised to take themselves and their money elsewhere.

Those retailers, distributors/transhippers who routinely offfer species from the 'unsuitable lists' are in business for their bottom line only and the only way to deal effectively with them is not to do business with them. and let them know why. Having an 'unsuitable list' is every bit as important as the suitable list. Both are needed.
 

Bill2

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
<strong>Im so tired of hearing what can't be placed in a reef tank. Why dont we concentrate on building an exhaustive list of what can be kept. Im sure reefers would find a list like this far more appealing.
[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Mouse ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Because it would be an exhaustive list. There are how many species of damselfish?
icon_smile.gif
 

Kalkbreath

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Some retailers understand that if the "hardy" list animals demand increases, that increased pressure will remove too many of those animals from the reef. Think about it? Few of the "unsuitable" are in short supply on the reef, Yet Most of the "Hardy" Are already low in numbers? Which retailers are hurting the reef?
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naesco

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Well MAC did nothing about the impossible to keep species. Quite frankly I was shocked.
As Mary pointed out to MAC, the incorporation of 30 species (I would have accepted 10)was not an economic loss and would have been percieved by everyone as a positive step forward in policing themselves.

So what am I going to do?
Sir Edward Barton, an Elizabethan soldier once said.
"Fight on my man...,
I am wounded by I am not slaine.
I'll lay me down and beed awhile,
And than I'll rise and fight againe."

I will not continue with my involvement in this forum.
Chucker, BillsReef2, I gave it a try.

But I am going to post only in the main discussion board on this subject if I am allowed.
I am going to meet with Greenpeace in Vancouver soon; maybe this week. I want to find out if they have the interest to stop the slaughter of impossible to keep species of fish and coral.
I am going to ask that the WWF resigns from MAC as now there interests are in conflict.

"An educated hobbyist demands an ETHICAL and sustainable industry." .. Mary Middlebrook

Mary, what are you going to do?
 

SPC

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Posted by naesco:
I am going to ask that the WWF resigns from MAC as now there interests are in conflict.

How do you see a conflict of interest here?
Steve
 
A

Anonymous

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> I want to find out if they have the interest to stop the slaughter of impossible to keep species of fish and coral.
<hr></blockquote>

Please be sure to have them include shrimp, lobster, and all other food species as well, including the fish markets in Indonesia. Maybe with enough education we can get those indiginous people to kill and slaughter cows and import food rather than using what they have in their back yard.
 

Kalkbreath

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Oh, and as long as I eat my dead butterfly fishes then its O.K. ...............................Its alright to kill something, as long as you eat it?
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StirCrazy

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Kalkbreath, do you eat fish? I mean stuff like trout, tuna, salmon, ect.. well that is our food fish, for other countries there food fish is stuff we keep in our tanks.. along the same lins in corea dog is conciderd a treat, would you concider eating a dog? no but we eat cows because that whate we have a abundence of. befor you go and condem a practice you should mabe try to understand what you are condemming, sure it sounds gross to us but to them well its just supper.

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Kalkbreath

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I was playing up to the others of which this idea that taking a fish from the ocean which has little or no chance of survival as a pet, is some how wrong .....yet as long as I promise to eat it if it dies all is forgiven.....After all, to kill to eat is okey? The idea of saving certain fish from this hobbies consumption even at the expense of the health of the reefs{saving coral eating fish} and the expense of the other fish ,[which will be taken in greater numbers} this ban helps nothing and would most likly harm the Reefs further.......what a great idea!
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MaryHM

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Kalk,

We can go 'round and 'round with this for the next 100 years and get no where. The removal of the animals on the USL for the trade is extremely small. By leaving those animals on the reef, we aren't harming the reef.
 

Kalkbreath

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Explain how leaving coral hurting fish,does not hurt the coral? Taking more groupers instead of butterflies in turn leaves even more coral eating butterflies, for there are less groupers{predators} eating the baby}butterflies . or explain how taking more herbivors{Tangs} to replace the now off limits Butterflies, does not increase the chances of Algae overtaking the living Coral?
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Chucker

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Well, Kalkbreath, what would satisfy you? You have been opposed to every possible solution presented so far in this forum. About the only alternative left is an out and out ban on all importation, period.
 

Kalkbreath

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What exactly are we trying to accomplish? If it is to help the Reefs, then lets do something that helps the reefs.......If it is to tward off a possible total ban on importation of reef fish , then lets show "them" how important this hobby is to the protection of the reefs.....by showing "them" how if it was not for the hobby demand for coral and healthy fish.....which can only come from a healthy non food fish blasted, un-strip mined for portland cement, keep your Mohogany lumber mill effluent out of our lagoon because:"this reef is a goldmine for American hobby pet fish collection"....and if we catch any one harming it{the reef} we Natives are going to eat you! This is the best hope for the Reefs, the hobby and the Natives is it not? What is WRONG with the truth! Offering up a peace offering to the gods...... such as this useless ban on twelve Coral munching fish is a spineless approach to adressing the real problem........The problem of the truth in this hobby being sooo elusive.......?
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skylsdale

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Grey.....is this hobby were a color it would be grey.

There is no absolute answer for what is happening, no black and white solution. I just returned to this board after taking a break for close to a year. I am encouraged by what's being done for the betterment of the hobby, but we need to remember that there isn't a clearcut answer to this whole thing.

I'm not quite sure what the original point of this whole thing is (I've perused Mary's board, and while the intention seems good, could not figure out what that actual intention was, i.e. just a collection of information, send to some official somewhere, etc.) but I gather that we are all hoping to "make a difference" somehow but putting together a list and then somehow discouraging the collection and keeping of those species.

I would love nothing more than a huge dose of responsibilty and awareness to be dumped on this industry, as well as many of the hobbyists. Just the other week a local LFS sold a blue-ringed octopus, fully aware that some of them are deadly. Was he positive that this one wasn't? Of course not. Then why would he have it in his shop? Because he sold it within 24 hours of it hitting his tanks. There is always that one hobbyist who has the cash (and the ego) to keep that one thing that no one else has. But it has never entered his mind why no one else is keeping this thing...

Anyway, enough ranting. Back to my point. Many species should not be kept. BUT we need to remember that much of what we keep today was thought impossible just 30 years ago. This hobby has come a long way in just the last few decades. We would not be able to have the successful captive reefs we do today had it not been for some pioneer chancing it on that one hard-to-keep specimen. As we kept, we studied. As we studied, we learned. An example? Anemones

These things live obscenely long lives in the ocean, but put them in a captive system and their lifespan is but a drop in the bucket to what they would experience on the reef. Granted, uneducated and inexperienced hobbyists should not start out with the obligatory anemone/clown hookup, but does that mean we should ban the collection and keeping of all anemones? I don't think so. It has been common dogma that we need intense light to keep these things alive, and obviously we can't re-create the proper intesity of light since they always seem to die. But some people have realized not every anemone fits into the same mold...and while most people were attacking the bait, others looked at other reasons as to why anemones do poorly. It is now becoming common knowledge that they need to be FED. There are other factors that contribute to a success in keeping an anemone, but it is by keeping them that we learn. Once we learn, and get a handle on it, then sustainable catpive-reared stock can be introduced into the hobby.

So what's the verdict? I don't have one, because I don't think there is a solid one. If I see something for sale at an LFS that I know shouldn't be sold or kept, I pass it buy--I DON'T BUY IT THINKING THAT I CAN DO A BETTER JOB KEEPING IT THAN SOME SCHMO WHO IS "LESS INFORMED" AND THEREBY SAVE THE SPECIMEN FROM SURE ANNHILATION IN SOMEONE ELSE'S TANK. We as hobbyists need to start setting an example for the industry and stop pointing the finger at the big bad wholesaler and distributor. Educate those people new to the hobby. Teach them what should and shouldn't be kept. Encourage them to be responsible. Make a difference when you can. I think you people are on the right track, and by gaining the voice of distinguished people in the field I think there is a good chance this information will spread and be heard by a greater audience, and hopefully be taken to heart.
 

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