A Call to Ban Reptiles- Is our Hobby Next??
- Thread starter MaryHM
- Start date
You are reactionary and I don't care if you lose your livelihood.
No, fish aren't going to be banned.
And the Humane Society deals with millions of uncared for animals. They have to piece together a system of caring for terribly neglected animals on practically no budget. GOD SAVE THEM.
They are infinitely morally superior to people who make a living pulling wild animals out of their natural environment.
Sorry, I don't care for your trade and livelihood. Luckily for you, there will be no end to the fish or reptile trades.
And YES, captive breeding will eventually gain much ground on wild animal traders and poachers.
Stop stirring up controversy, reactionary, and find a different line of work.
Go work for the SPCA.
"If they ban my teflon-coated ammo and machine pistol, hunters will suffer and the Gestapo will kick in the door" You sound like the NRA, Mary.
No, fish aren't going to be banned.
And the Humane Society deals with millions of uncared for animals. They have to piece together a system of caring for terribly neglected animals on practically no budget. GOD SAVE THEM.
They are infinitely morally superior to people who make a living pulling wild animals out of their natural environment.
Sorry, I don't care for your trade and livelihood. Luckily for you, there will be no end to the fish or reptile trades.
And YES, captive breeding will eventually gain much ground on wild animal traders and poachers.
Stop stirring up controversy, reactionary, and find a different line of work.
Go work for the SPCA.
"If they ban my teflon-coated ammo and machine pistol, hunters will suffer and the Gestapo will kick in the door" You sound like the NRA, Mary.
MandarinFish:
You sound a bit reactionary in your reply. I see the parallels between the two industries. Many a person here on this board has cited the reptile trade as a good example of how captive breeding can save the industry, and how bans in importation are the salve that will save the environment and still keep the hobby alive. I think it entirely appropriate that this be brought up- in the Industry forum, not necessarily here.
as for your quote:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
There are many educated, intelligent people that aer students of history that would agree with the above statement. That, however is another topic that has no place here.
Ernie
You sound a bit reactionary in your reply. I see the parallels between the two industries. Many a person here on this board has cited the reptile trade as a good example of how captive breeding can save the industry, and how bans in importation are the salve that will save the environment and still keep the hobby alive. I think it entirely appropriate that this be brought up- in the Industry forum, not necessarily here.
as for your quote:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
There are many educated, intelligent people that aer students of history that would agree with the above statement. That, however is another topic that has no place here.
Ernie
Captive breeding and species bans are necessary.
Tough rules for violaters need to be enforced.
Should captive bred geckos be outlawed? Probably not.
Should wild Komodo Dragons and Galapagos toroises be traded legally? Probably not.
Captive breeding is the key. If not, the wild will run out of animals for people to exploit. Seriously.
99% of wild birds caught for pets die en route to stores.
How long until all birds are gone?
Snake handlers need to deal with their own salmonella responisibilities (iguanas have more of it, I think).
Kinda like putting your hands in your tank, then making a sandwich without washing your hands. Not smart.
I'm not Dave, but I can see why he doesn't like her.
I went off on her because she is trying to fish (pardon the pun
)for responses in the main forum. It's bad enough she moderates.
PS I have a history degree from a Pac 10 university, cum laude. No, the Nazi's aren't coming, even if weapons laws and bans are. We can discuss that elsewhere though
[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: MandarinFish ]</p>
Tough rules for violaters need to be enforced.
Should captive bred geckos be outlawed? Probably not.
Should wild Komodo Dragons and Galapagos toroises be traded legally? Probably not.
Captive breeding is the key. If not, the wild will run out of animals for people to exploit. Seriously.
99% of wild birds caught for pets die en route to stores.
How long until all birds are gone?
Snake handlers need to deal with their own salmonella responisibilities (iguanas have more of it, I think).
Kinda like putting your hands in your tank, then making a sandwich without washing your hands. Not smart.
I'm not Dave, but I can see why he doesn't like her.
I went off on her because she is trying to fish (pardon the pun
PS I have a history degree from a Pac 10 university, cum laude. No, the Nazi's aren't coming, even if weapons laws and bans are. We can discuss that elsewhere though
[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: MandarinFish ]</p>
You're right Bill.
I'm glad that was investigated and I hope people end up in jail for neglect.
Balancing Humane Societies vs poachers is, on average, not going to be equal though.
At least Humane Societies are guided by animal care in principal.
Mary and her like are guided by profit.
Species banning and captive breeding are big parts of the solution, along with close regulation.
I'm glad that was investigated and I hope people end up in jail for neglect.
Balancing Humane Societies vs poachers is, on average, not going to be equal though.
At least Humane Societies are guided by animal care in principal.
Mary and her like are guided by profit.
Species banning and captive breeding are big parts of the solution, along with close regulation.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Because the software isn't allowing the administrators of reefs.org to move the forum up to a more visible place, I've been told to keep reminding the general board that the industry forum is there.
Also, I'd like to see the data supporting your statement that 99% of wild birds die in transit. I've very interested in collecting some REAL statistics, and this one would be nice to have.
Because the software isn't allowing the administrators of reefs.org to move the forum up to a more visible place, I've been told to keep reminding the general board that the industry forum is there.
Also, I'd like to see the data supporting your statement that 99% of wild birds die in transit. I've very interested in collecting some REAL statistics, and this one would be nice to have.
The way I see it you moralist are affecting my freedom. If you want to infringe on the rights of others go to some place like iraq or afganistan.
“They are infinitely morally superior to people who make a living pulling wild animals out of their natural environment.”
In who's book? In the book I read man has dominion over the earth and the creatures.
If your so morally superior you should crown yourself the next Dahli lama or Buddha hell just call yourself god and see if the angels bow down and worship you.
Basically you need to get a grip on life and the pursuit of happiness.
“They are infinitely morally superior to people who make a living pulling wild animals out of their natural environment.”
In who's book? In the book I read man has dominion over the earth and the creatures.
If your so morally superior you should crown yourself the next Dahli lama or Buddha hell just call yourself god and see if the angels bow down and worship you.
Basically you need to get a grip on life and the pursuit of happiness.
Mandarin have you even talked to mary personally or have you visited her facility? She has 3 pet fish ovedr 10" long because some idjit exporter instead of sending a 4" fish thought bigger is better. She is uncomfortable in shipping these fish because she saw the hell they went through to get to her. So until he finds someone local to her to give em to she has a regal angel , an emperator angel and a pufferfish that she keeps as pets in her facitity. If she were truly run by greed then these fish would have been a goldmine to her.
Another point, wishing someone to loose their livelihood and to wish them into poverty is not only cruel but reactionary itself.
Another point, wishing someone to loose their livelihood and to wish them into poverty is not only cruel but reactionary itself.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Kinda like putting your hands in your tank, then making a sandwich without washing your hands. Not smart.
<hr></blockquote>
What is wrong with that? A little saltwater never hurt anyone.
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<hr></blockquote>
What is wrong with that? A little saltwater never hurt anyone.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I agree. People should be able to do stupid things if they only hurt themselves. I should be able to kill my self by not wearing a seat belt and not get in trouble with the law.
If you ignore this you do so at the possibility of losing the hobby completely and we will be trading brown frags with eachother.
They are going after the reptiles and will target us next unless we take steps to control the damage we do.
Look at the industry forum and let the industry know you want to stop the import of impossible to keep species now./
They are going after the reptiles and will target us next unless we take steps to control the damage we do.
Look at the industry forum and let the industry know you want to stop the import of impossible to keep species now./
I was under the belief that there was a ban on most wild caught birds. Yes Mary, go to search engine and look up african greys, macaws, etc. and look at their info on the death rate. Captive bird breeding has made a wonderful!! dent in bird trading. I know that all breeders I came across banded their bappies so people knew they were hand reared/captive raised. I hope the fish industry can head this direction before it would become a ban. Personally I don't know Mary...you know what...I don't know any of you. It would be nice to know who you are though...do you own a store, had a tank for 10 yrs, or had a death trap for 2 years. It would be nice to know who is answering sometimes.
VkeSu:
As far as who I am, here's a quote out of a paper I wrote for distribution at the Marine Ornamentals 2001 conference:
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Now that that's settled, on to the birds...
I have searched for the past half hour and have yet to come up with any solid mortality statistics that are backed up with cited studies. I did find this at http://www.spca.bc.ca/Factsheets/parrot.htm
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
If anyone can find any specific studies that state fact-based statistics, I am really interested in seeing them.
As far as who I am, here's a quote out of a paper I wrote for distribution at the Marine Ornamentals 2001 conference:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Now that that's settled, on to the birds...
I have searched for the past half hour and have yet to come up with any solid mortality statistics that are backed up with cited studies. I did find this at http://www.spca.bc.ca/Factsheets/parrot.htm
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
If anyone can find any specific studies that state fact-based statistics, I am really interested in seeing them.
PS: Every pet I own is captive bred, with the exception of my kribensis and my toucanette, and they currently breed and stock fellow aquarist's tanks.
However, I'm not above trying to breed wild birds, such as my toucanette (if I can find her a male at a reasonable price).
You won't get captive bred wild animals without wild caught specimens.
However, I'm not above trying to breed wild birds, such as my toucanette (if I can find her a male at a reasonable price).
You won't get captive bred wild animals without wild caught specimens.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I have been out of that hobby for a few years, but I have never experienced the banding you describe.
I have never been in any Humane Society/Animal Shelter that ever seemed in any way humane to me. Every one was dirty, run down, with animals in tiny, dirty cages. Animals are not quarentined nor allowed to socialize with humans there. I am sure that I will get flamed for this by someone who has been in or who has worked in a shelter, but this has been my experience. Granted, I have been to only a handful of shelters, but they all looked the same to me. Their idea of "being humane" is that if the poor kitty that you want doesn't find a home by tomorrow she will be put down. And by the way, you aren't eligible because you want to put the litter box in the laundry room. (True story here, folks)
My bosses wife is the biggest animal's rights freak in the world. They donate thousands to PETA, CARE, etc every year and guess what? The humane society turned her down for a kitten because she had once had an indoor cat de-clawed! I mean, she is the ideal cat owner. Home 24-7, enough money to pay for their vet's porsche, doting, won't allow the cat outside (this is a big stipulation of the Humane Society... don't get me started on that one!).
The Humane Society does have a certain amount of influence, however.
I am afraid I agree with Naesco on this one (Am I really saying this? Bite my tongue!) that this could be a pattern for things to follow. Responsible collection and captive propogation are necessary steps to forgo bans that will be overly general.
Limited sustainable harvest is key to long-term captive propogation solutions. Mary herself is building greenhouses to be able to propogate certain species. I see a future in which it is in her best interest to cease importation of species that she propogates due to margin differentials.
Sorry for rambling.
Ernie
I have been out of that hobby for a few years, but I have never experienced the banding you describe.
I have never been in any Humane Society/Animal Shelter that ever seemed in any way humane to me. Every one was dirty, run down, with animals in tiny, dirty cages. Animals are not quarentined nor allowed to socialize with humans there. I am sure that I will get flamed for this by someone who has been in or who has worked in a shelter, but this has been my experience. Granted, I have been to only a handful of shelters, but they all looked the same to me. Their idea of "being humane" is that if the poor kitty that you want doesn't find a home by tomorrow she will be put down. And by the way, you aren't eligible because you want to put the litter box in the laundry room. (True story here, folks)
My bosses wife is the biggest animal's rights freak in the world. They donate thousands to PETA, CARE, etc every year and guess what? The humane society turned her down for a kitten because she had once had an indoor cat de-clawed! I mean, she is the ideal cat owner. Home 24-7, enough money to pay for their vet's porsche, doting, won't allow the cat outside (this is a big stipulation of the Humane Society... don't get me started on that one!).
The Humane Society does have a certain amount of influence, however.
I am afraid I agree with Naesco on this one (Am I really saying this? Bite my tongue!) that this could be a pattern for things to follow. Responsible collection and captive propogation are necessary steps to forgo bans that will be overly general.
Limited sustainable harvest is key to long-term captive propogation solutions. Mary herself is building greenhouses to be able to propogate certain species. I see a future in which it is in her best interest to cease importation of species that she propogates due to margin differentials.
Sorry for rambling.
Ernie
Mandarinfish,
You my friend are a hypocrite. I guarantee, at some point in you fishkeeping lifetime, you have bought a fish from a substandard store.
I have had pet reptiles from the time I was 4 years old. I have not been able to breed all of the species in captivity, and some have died trying. However, when I succeed, the brood sold takes less out of the wild, and the mortality rate is low. Sound like fragging and captive fish breeding?
Get off of your high horse and show me one reef tank that didn't have it origins in the wild.
Yes, bad reptile retailers should be shut down; however. so should bad fish retailers. Get over yourself.
You my friend are a hypocrite. I guarantee, at some point in you fishkeeping lifetime, you have bought a fish from a substandard store.
I have had pet reptiles from the time I was 4 years old. I have not been able to breed all of the species in captivity, and some have died trying. However, when I succeed, the brood sold takes less out of the wild, and the mortality rate is low. Sound like fragging and captive fish breeding?
Get off of your high horse and show me one reef tank that didn't have it origins in the wild.
Yes, bad reptile retailers should be shut down; however. so should bad fish retailers. Get over yourself.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Such a nice way to start a discussion. Of course, people in the holier-than-thou set generally aren't interested in discussing, just imposing their vision of what's right on others.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>And the Humane Society deals with millions of uncared for animals. They have to piece together a system of caring for terribly neglected animals on practically no budget. GOD SAVE THEM.
They are infinitely morally superior to people who make a living pulling wild animals out of their natural environment.<hr></blockquote>
Based on?????? Kinda imposing your view of moral superiority aren't you? When I see this type of commentary, my first thought is "prove it."
Of course, the request for proof shouldn't be too difficult to understand, nor should it be unexpected, especially from someone with "a history degree from a Pac 10 university, cum laude."
Personally, I don't think that since I have a degree from a PAC 10 university ( magna cum laude), my opinion holds any greater weight than yours, so why do you think your opinion is so important?
Kevin
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