dipping for ick...

[ryangrieder]

Lets put this to rest and let this guy make his own choice.
He can decide between guys who read from textbooks
And a guy who has been dipping fish forever and has amazing results!!!!!!

hey reef probe, thanks for all your opinions on this. But the only reason I asked about a quick dip was because mainly that figh just randomly got some and I wanted to jump on it fast and take care of it. I never tried the fresh water dip because that just seemed so rough on it being in fresh water. But im going to be honest, I've delt with ick many times before, and helped many others and I have to say your opinions on a qt tank are completely idiotic and insane. Never ever will i just keep doing fresh water dips. Qt set up are by far the very best way to go. Do you realize how many people with nice set ups Know qt tanks are the way to go before adding any fish to the set up? I have always qt all my fish awhile back, but then I stopped buying fish, so i broke it down. For the amount of money I put into my tanks and everyone else does, there is a little thing people call patience that is required with reefing. 72 days empty, to close to guarentee dead ick in the tank. And it works, I've done it and so have my friends. It works and worth it. You keep trying to catch your fish and freshwater dipping them. And also, since you been doing freshwater dips for ever...obviously it does not work if you had to do it more then once... Every time i qt with copper or something, i think only once I have ever had a fish die in qt. Your not doing it right if you have them all die. All I do is take water out of my tank, fill my qt tank with it, take a hang on filter and put media from my main tank into that filter, add a heater and a powerhead or two and some PVC pipes I built hiding spots out of, throw in the copper, test it every day and I'm golden.

But the funny thing is, and i don't know how i do it, but I know no one has success with kick ick or ick-x or anything like that, but i started dosing the tank with it yesterday, and its already working lol. It always works for me. Soooo I'll continue that for now and see how it goes. If no good, then qt set up again it is.

And thank you marrone and arati.

If someone wants to close this thread so he does not come back complaining again, your more then welcome, im good here. It was a stupid question to ask anyway. I don't want to cause any fights...

 

[kvh252]

I have that 20 that's not doing anything if u need to set up a qt.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Reefs

 

[Arati]

I also think this thread should be locked. I am sorry I even replied to it again.. but I lack self control...


Prattreef -Individuals will do what they will do, and on occasion they might even succeed when breaking from common wisdom, but this is assuredly the exception and not the rule--otherwise, the recommendations would be different.

"Freshwater dips

Freshwater dips are largely ineffective in the treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans (Burgess, 1992). The host epidermis and thick layer of mucus form a barrier impervious to osmotic shock (Colorni, 1985). "Most of the trophonts whose hosts had undergone hyposalinity treatment, including freshwater, for at least 18 h, were still alive and occupied the same position in the host by the end of the experiment, following re-adaptation to sea water. They later dropped from the fish, encysted, and the tomonts produced tomites" (Colorni, 1985).

Note that the above quote says "most" and not all trophonts. Trophonts embed themselves completely into the epithelium under a layer of skin. This protects these trophonts from dips. As the trophonts grow in size they gradually displace the overlying epithelium. This is when they become visible as white spots or nodules. Exposed trophonts may be susceptible to freshwater dips, but trophonts that survive continue in their life cycle making this method only partially effective at best.

"Freshwater dips can cause osmotic shock. Typically the fish are exposed to the air during the process of capture, handling and transfer, all of which are stressful to the fish. Freshwater dips cannot be depended on as the sole method of treatment for Cryptocaryon irritans and can be counterproductive because they are highly stressful to the fish. They should only be used in combination with other treatments that will successfully interrupt the parasite's life cycle."
From TerryB http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...2004/mini4.htm


"I wanted to add a footnote on the effectiveness, or lack thereof, for freshwater dips against Cryptocaryon irritans. The question of whether they work or not stems from one study, Colorni 1985. In that study, Colorni watched as trophonts and their host, the Gilt-Head Sea Bream, Sparus aurata, were given freshwater dips. After the dips, which lasted up to 18 hours, were administered the trophonts were still there in their same positions. These same trophonts later dropped off the fish and reproduced successfully. My first comment is, I am unsure if any of the common ornamentals we see in the trade could withstand an 18-hour freshwater dip!

 

[125reefer]

wow ryan he was just helping no need to throw the names out like that.he was arguing with the guy who called him nasty names.is it because marrone is on this site longer you feel you can degrade him.im on reefs side also.qt are not helpful for a newb who just goes to set up a qt on the fly.its to dangerous and a low rate for survival.yeah if you have a qt set up the same way as a dt by waiting 6 to eight weeks and letting it mature thats great as long as its a large tank so the fish dont get stressed out and using a dark bottom with pvc and covering the whole tank so nothing can frighten the fish then that is great.if you cant do that fresh water dips and a garlic treatment is definatly the way to go.and when the fish is out you would need to let that tank continue running.with a filter and a heater and a light cycle.so just telling people to get a qt is irresponsible unless you explain how to use a qt

 

[125reefer]

oh my bad reefprobe got testy first haha sorry

 

[marrone]

marrone you have a bunch of good posts but im with reefprobe on this .ive tried qt on fish and every time the fish dies.ive been using fw dips for a long time as well along with fresh garlic and the ich alwats goes away.i will never qt a fish again

The problem is that you can't keep the fish alive during QT, not that Qt doesn't work. So basically you need to learn how to keep the fish alive during QT, if you do, then you'll see it works. As for fresh water dips, well they just don't work on ich, as they don't kill the ich, which is a major problem and let the ich just reproduce and possibly reinfect the fish again. As for garlic, it seems to have some affect but so does using ginger and a number of other things. What is most likely actually happening is that it's not the garlic that is working but something else. The fish is stronger, possibly because it's eating, and is able to fish off the ich. You'll also find that a lot of people going this route, feeding garlic, and wind up losing fish. The thing about garlic is that almost every prepared food you can buy now has garlic, so if garlic did kill ich then no fish would have, or get, ich if you're feeding them those foods.

 

[reefprobe]

Hey guys you can refer to all the so call science geeks and reef geeks you want my point is that if you have a fish and it is showing signs of ich dip it.....If you have a QT tank and you know what your doing and your a so called "reef addick" then the more power to ya.I m going by what MOST PEOPLE I have met and spoken to through the many years.They have attempted this and they tried Qts that almost always fail. If you have a QT and you have experience with one it is absolutely the best way to go. If you want to take all the fish out for 2-3 months thats extreme .
If I was testy I apologize........... you ladies keep attacking my suggestions and acting like your methods are the only way.........well there are many others and lets not try to confuse those who don't know better. I have been doing saltwater fish longer than most on this board have been alive.......g'day

 

[reefprobe]

The problem is that you can't keep the fish alive during QT, not that Qt doesn't work. So basically you need to learn how to keep the fish alive during QT, if you do, then you'll see it works. As for fresh water dips, well they just don't work on ich, as they don't kill the ich, which is a major problem and let the ich just reproduce and possibly reinfect the fish again. As for garlic, it seems to have some affect but so does using ginger and a number of other things. What is most likely actually happening is that it's not the garlic that is working but something else. The fish is stronger, possibly because it's eating, and is able to fish off the ich. You'll also find that a lot of people going this route, feeding garlic, and wind up losing fish. The thing about garlic is that almost every prepared food you can buy now has garlic, so if garlic did kill ich then no fish would have, or get, ich if you're feeding them those foods.

I agree the QTs CAN work :inlove: if you know what you are doing,though the success rate is almost maybe 10-30% at best
Do you have any personnel experience with FW dip?
Because I do and they work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So does 125 reefer and I would bet plenty of other people on this board.

Only the very experienced few would have a cycled QT and even fewer than that would have success treating one.
If you have a sick fish and do not have a QT ready to go DO NOT think about just throwing one together.....BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :irked:

 

[jrobbins]

Hey guys you can refer to all the so call science geeks and reef geeks you want my point is that if you have a fish and it is showing signs of ich dip it.....If you have a QT tank and you know what your doing and your a so called "reef addick" then the more power to ya.I m going by what MOST PEOPLE I have met and spoken to through the many years.They have attempted this and they tried Qts that almost always fail. If you have a QT and you have experience with one it is absolutely the best way to go. If you want to take all the fish out for 2-3 months thats extreme .
If I was testy I apologize........... you ladies keep attacking my suggestions and acting like your methods are the only way.........well there are many others and lets not try to confuse those who don't know better. I have been doing saltwater fish longer than most on this board have been alive.......g'day

There seems to be only one person here spreading misinformation and confusion...

 

[marrone]

Hey Morrene don't tell me that FW dips don't work I have been doing them forever I can promise anyone here on the forum they work! And you are way wrong about the ich returning to the tank after the dip the parasite is killed when it hits the Fresh water it explodes from the pressure difference. It kills the ich on the outside of the fish and inside the gills,and I have brought countless fish back from near death by this process. They breath way better and most of the ich is gone after the first dip in 24 hours.

I'm not sure were to start, you seem to ignor what has been posted about ich.

You don't think stress has anything to do with ich? Just coincidence the fish who are the most stressed get ich? And when people stir up their tanks and move stuff around all their fish get sick with ich coincidence?

And you do understand I was comparing ich to a common cold not calling it a common cold? In other words Ich is as common for fish... as a cold is as common to people....
when we are run down we are more likely to pick things up and get sick then when we are 100% healthy...

Once again, you do understand that ich is a parasite and not a virius, right? You do understand that health fish can, and do, get ich, something that you see when someone introduces a fish with ich, and then the rest of the tank comes down with ich. Nothing to do with stress but a parasite being introduced into the tank. It's very common in the ocean as fish carry many parasites, but don't become as infected, or reinfected, as they do in a closed system, like our tanks are. Virius do lay dormint in a person, until they get run down, but a parasite most likely will attacked them right away, regardless if they've health or even stressed out.

As for stirring up the sand and such, well people have fish and inverts that do it all the time. My Pistol Shrimp moves sand from one side of the tank to the other almost every day but my fish don't get ich after he does it, and I do have fish that live in and around the sand.

If everyone tries to use a QT tank I would bet that more than half will crash it from a spike in ammonia or nitrite or the fish will die from some other reason(overdose) long before the QT period is up. I have heard all the stories a large majority of those who use QTs fail.If you buy a healthy fish thats eating and your tank is stable give it a dip before you add it thats your best shot. I have never seen or heard of anyone leaving there tank emty for months because one or two of the fish got ich? They do what they can and move on.......will they get ich in the future maybe? Probably not if the fish are healthy and they buy them from a good source.

Then you need to learn to setup, use, and maintain a QT, that seems to be the problem, not that it doesn't work. Once again just because a fish is healthy doesn't mean it can't, or wouldn't, get ich if you place it in a tank with ich. As for leaving a tank empty, so the ich will die off, as there aren't any hosts for it, well that is something that a lot of people are fourced to do, as they didn't QT there fish and the ich has wiped out most, if not all, of their fish and any new fish seems to get the ich. I'm not sure why you've never seem or heard of people doing this? It's quite common.

Lets put this to rest and let this guy make his own choice.
He can decide between guys who read from textbooks
And a guy who has been dipping fish forever and has amazing results!!!!!!

Amazing results????? I see all these amazing results on RC too, though what you'll find is that most people never mention all the failures that they have. They usually become very quite about it. In the end you'll find most of the time the person will lose fish trying this method, or if the fish did fight off the ich, it had nothing to do with what was being done. By the way, I'm not a big text book type guy, something that if anyone has spoken with me you would know. In this hobby, and yes it's a hobby, a lot of information doesn't get put in text books or enough research is done because afterall, it's a hobby.

 

[reefprobe]

There seems to be only one person here spreading misinformation and confusion...

Speaking of confusion what does Atlantis Aquarium do in their 10,000 gallon REEF aquarium when a fish has ich on it? Do they catch every fish and QT them for 2-3 months and leave the Display tank empty for 2-3 months? I think NOT......... Or do they treat the tank, or treat the fish? Arate Marone,Rian,and now robbins u guys are experts what do they do? :splitspin

I would bet they treat the whole tank if it spreads or do nothing if its just a fish or two...............

 

[marrone]

Are you comparing a small tank to a 10,000 setup? Do you not see the difference, don't you? Almost like comparing what happens in the ocean to our small tanks.

 

[reefprobe]

Are you comparing a small tank to a 10,000 setup? Do you not see the difference, don't you? Almost like comparing what happens in the ocean to our small tanks.

Avoiding the question expert?

 

[marrone]

No, just showing how silly you are, something you don't seem to get when you try and compare a very large tank to our small home tanks. The next thing will be comparing what is done in the ocean, or isn't done in the ocean. I guess you don't see the smaller closed system being a difference.

 

[125reefer]

the only point that im trying to make is when someone has an outbreak of ich or notice that they do have a fish with ich on it i see so many posts of people right away saying QT your fish.and if you dont have a qt set 1 up.this is the wrong advise to give.when the person asks what do they need for qt they tell them the equip they need and thats all.that is so wrong to do and MR needs to stop that bad advise.what needs to be said is the following."do u have a established qt to put the fish,no okay see if someone with an established qt tank can hold on to the fish for you if not you need to make a fresh water dip this is how you will do it.then you need to give high in garlic foods to build up the immunity of fish and keep lights on to a minimum and cover your tank with a dark sheet only looking in every once in awhile to see how fish are doing.next if you have room in your house you need to get a 40 breeder or larger tank,a filter a heater a light and paint the bottom of the qt tank black if its not on a solid platform some pvc and get a qt running for a future qt tank.you need to keep fish out of that qt until its established and drop a small amount of food in there every so often to build up some bacteria.you cannot use this for a qt for these fish as it will stress the fish out more and will kill your fish.you will also need a copper test kit.when your qt is ready you will use this tank for all future fish purchase.you will need to keep ph and temp the same as your dt tank as well.also if the fish shows sign of ick you need to start the copper treatment and keep your qt covered with a dark sheet.this is how to advise someone who dont know what they are doing when comes to ick.usually when someone asks about ick its a noob and 99% he or she does not have a qt.this is how all future noob ich breakouts should be handled imo..thanks feel free to add to my post as i just woke up and i might have forgotton something lol

 

[jrobbins]

You forgot a step. Once you have covered you tank with a sheet and only look in once a day, you should also put your underpants on you head, paint a giant Nemo on your chest and run through your neighborhood screaming like an idiot. In my years of experience this is about as effective as a fw dip (maybe more so). Just remember it only works if you post the whole thing on YouTube.

If you don't want to go that route you could also just set up a hospital tank. I know its not nearly as fun, but it does have the advantage of actually curing ich...

the only point that im trying to make is when someone has an outbreak of ich or notice that they do have a fish with ich on it i see so many posts of people right away saying QT your fish.and if you dont have a qt set 1 up.this is the wrong advise to give.when the person asks what do they need for qt they tell them the equip they need and thats all.that is so wrong to do and MR needs to stop that bad advise.what needs to be said is the following."do u have a established qt to put the fish,no okay see if someone with an established qt tank can hold on to the fish for you if not you need to make a fresh water dip this is how you will do it.then you need to give high in garlic foods to build up the immunity of fish and keep lights on to a minimum and cover your tank with a dark sheet only looking in every once in awhile to see how fish are doing.next if you have room in your house you need to get a 40 breeder or larger tank,a filter a heater a light and paint the bottom of the qt tank black if its not on a solid platform some pvc and get a qt running for a future qt tank.you need to keep fish out of that qt until its established and drop a small amount of food in there every so often to build up some bacteria.you cannot use this for a qt for these fish as it will stress the fish out more and will kill your fish.you will also need a copper test kit.when your qt is ready you will use this tank for all future fish purchase.you will need to keep ph and temp the same as your dt tank as well.also if the fish shows sign of ick you need to start the copper treatment and keep your qt covered with a dark sheet.this is how to advise someone who dont know what they are doing when comes to ick.usually when someone asks about ick its a noob and 99% he or she does not have a qt.this is how all future noob ich breakouts should be handled imo..thanks feel free to add to my post as i just woke up and i might have forgotton something lol

 

[125reefer]

wow jrobbins your a nasty dude arent you.oh im sorry you have been a member here since 2008 you must know what your talking about.i wasnt aggressive with anyone here why you attacking me.oh your probably the person giving the bad advise on how to set up a qt so your lashing out ok im sorry

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

OK so when you see ich on one fish you should remove all your fish and QT them for 2 months and keep your tank empty......makes sense??????????
.

Yes it makes perfect sense.

It works very well.

Freshwater dips if not done correctly can be disastrous. You must match water temp and ph and must be done for more than a few seconds. Actually hyposalinity in a hospital or quarantine tank with copper treating is the best way. It also must be done properly. If you do not remove the fish from the tank the ich will never leave because it will always have a host and the cycle will never be broken.

 

[jrobbins]

actually i don't think i was being nasty.

look man, you can do whatever you want. its your tank, your fish, your hobby, your money. however, when you start giving what in all honesty is really crap advice, you should expect to be called out on it. if that makes me a nasty dude in your mind, well I'm kind of ok with that.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

There is plenty of information on these treatments in the general forum. As a matter of fact there is a thread that was made a sticky there with lots of links to lots of great information.