Zeovit discussion from skimmer thread

[prattreef]

How does a needlewheel lower k levels???

Excellent question and quite a different discussion from whether K is needed or influences corals etc.

So, is K even a skimmable molecule? If not is it present in other "bodies" that are particularly prone to being skimmed and if either is true, why/how is needlewheel skimming any more or less effective than any other method of skimmer bubble production in removing K? Unless the claim is that needlewheel skimmers are simply more efficient than other methods and overly efficient skimmers don't mesh well with the Zeo system the mechanism for increased K removal needs to be explained.

Where's Boomer when you need him?

 

[mshur]

I have used Zeo system for years and i have spoke with Thomas Phol many times. Skimmer will not remove any K+ from the water . Thomas told me that Zeo stones effect on reducing K not needlwheels. The reason why he come out with KZ skimmers ( i use to own one) because he thinks that needlwheel kills plancton in the water .
How Zeo stones effect on K, thats other question!

 

[prattreef]

Thanks Mike, That is a very different claim than above. And also quite different from the original claim that needlewheels are bad for SPS corals. As far as I know, all skimmers remove plankton--it might in fact be what they are best at removing. Hasn't Tunze claimed for nearly 2 decades that their skimmers were "plankton friendly" as well?

 

[pmoneyt]

This is the same guy saying that ATI fixtures were the Honda's of the lighting world but never backed up his claim. I think he needs to stay on RC if he feels is a better site and speak clearly when typing.

I grew up with enough sense to not believe everything I hear or read without seeing facts to back up the statement. Next the just post your facts and we will listen more instead of asking you to back up your claims, and please dont say do a search.

 

[NYreefNoob]

seems he just always has something negitive to say , same thing you said on RC most of us MR's think we know everything. you make claims and never anything to back it up, btw what skimmer are you using ? seems too me you assume half of us are stupid and dont know what we are typing. Do you know what effects K has on a tank or what effects on corals, without going and reading or looking it up again and copying and pasting ?

 

[Boomer]

About time somebody put some real light on this matter.........Thank you Mike and Pratt

First and foremost I see this thread as an ad for Zeovit, whether one likes it or not. Some Zeo people have a habit of this. I have always wondered why a Zeo thread pops-up out of nowhere and it is always a Zeo guy.


So how can or can a Zeolite remove K+ ?

Zeolites have been used in this hobby in the USA for over 2 decade. It is what Nitrate Sponges are made of, e.g. X-Nitrate. "Kitty litter" and the same for "water softeners" and "floor dry", all which are made of the same Zeolite Clinoptilolite, which is the end mineral of the Heulandite Series, where there has been a replacement of K+ for Na+. These minerals are often confused with clays, which they are not even related to, other than the fact they are both Al silicates often with water. They belong to or are some times put in the Feldspar Group and are in the same silicate Subclass as Quartz_Tektosilicates_. They are not structured like clay at all. Heulandite/Clinoptilolite is (Na, Ca)2-3 Al3 (Al, Si)2 Si13 O36 : 12H20. Clay minerals are Phyllosilcates, which form sheets of tetrahedra, each sharing 3O. Tektosilicares are 3-dimensional frameworks of tetrahedra, each sharing all 4 O. All clays are also hydroxides and Zeolites are not

The thing about Zeolites is that they can loose all their water without changing their crystallographic structure, where other ions/compounds can replace the water. The general formula is Wm'Zr'O2r'_sH20. Where W is chiefly Na and Ca (K, Ba and Sr lesser). Z is Si + Al, where Si:Al is 1 or greater and s is variable. The ratio Al2O3 : (CaO + Na2O) is always 1:1 and the (Al + Si):O is always 1:2. There are different composition ranges in different Zeolite minerals but it is narrow. They all have a very open wide meshed structure, where the cavities in the framework contain cations that balance the anions. However, the easy of the exchange is what makes them unique.

Clinoptilolite and Heulandite are low field strength zeolites for which the cation specivities.

Cs+ > Rb+ > NH4 + > K+ > Na+ > Li+ > H+, and Ba2+ > Sr2+ > Ca2+ > Mg2+..

This means that these Zeolites have an affinity mostly for the first ion in the column above and those that follow have a less affinity. So, take note the due to the almost nil levels of Cs+, Rb+ and NH4+ in seawater the K+ is sucked out by the Zeo quite readily. It is a well known fact among Zeo people that Zeolites deplete K+, as the K+ kicks out the Na+ in the zeo structure and replaces it with K+. This a major factor why they test for it and add it to Zeo systems. Now if they got there head out of their butts they would not use a N+ based Aluminosilicate zeo but a K+ based Aluminosilicate zeo. Despite the gibberish from Zeo these zeolites have one and only one real function in Zeo Systems, to act as a surface area for bacteria to grow on, as bacteria love this kind of surface to grow on. The comments they make on it being used for ammonia removal to feed the bacteria is so much gibberish and nonsense it is silly. If one needs that explained also I will.

Can a skimmer remove some K+ ? Well, of course it can, just like it removes many of the ions in seawater. A skimmer make-up is largely "salt". Do, I buy into that a needle wheel remove allot of K+, of course not. Enough claims here show me a data sheet from a lab that a needle-wheel takes out excessive amount of K+, as claimed. I consider this claim internet Folk Lore.

From the Zeovit user guide;

K-Balance adds the elements that are partially removed via skimming, especially by needle wheel skimmers.

Sorry I do not buy into this at all. It is a claim with nothing to back it up. When they show me DATA I will believe them and admit to being wrong The claim is these skimmer precip K+. Well, you can not precip K+ in seawater or a skimmer. In seawater almost 96 % of the water must be removed to get any K+ precip. K + and Mg++ are two of the last two ions to leave solution and precip out as salts. More than likley this so called depletion of K+ from these skimmers is really something else you are not looking at i.e, exporting more bacteria, then maybe it will drop or same input and more export, where many things will drop. So, it is really NOT the skimmer doing it as it can't

Do I think like or think Zeo Systems work, yes but allot of it is not as they claim, it is due to lack of understating of the Biogeochemistry and despite that lack the system work well if you know what you are doing.

 

[NYreefNoob]

tyvm boomer

 

[batt600]

Here i now this isnt scientific proff but here is a post of some one that had the same exprerence i did....

This is from dieselgrk from reef central




one thing i did mention in my original post that you are overlooking randy is efficient skimming.as far as potassium goes, i never had to supplement potassium till recently when i upgraded to a powerful needle wheel skimmer. i was using for sometime a KZ Revolution S which is nothing more then a Beckett skimmer. i was not happy with its performance however while using it, i never had to supplement k+ and was consistently in the 380-400 range. within 2 months time after introducing a new needle wheel skimmer, my k+ dropped to 300. it has been stated by many that needle wheel skimmers precipitate k+ and although i cant back that statement up with scientific evidence, my experience in the matter would prove the statement to be correct.

not sure if you are running a skimmer with your system randy, however not having to supplement k+ may have more to due with what, if any, skimmer you are running with your system, your corals you choose to house in your system, and the fact that you change 1 gal of water a day. it may have less to due with the fact that you "dose more organic carbon than most".

 

[Boomer]

it has been stated by many that needle wheel skimmers precipitate k+ and although i cant back that statement up with scientific evidence, my experience in the matter would prove the statement to be correct.

You CAN NOT precip K+ in a skimmer or even in seawater unless the water content is only ~ 5 % water and no skimmer can do that and if it could all the other salts in the skimmer cup would produce a massive chunk of salts i,e. CaCO3, CaSO4 and NaCl,etc..

Take a sample of water entering the skimmer and a sample exiting the skimmer to a lab and you will find out the K+ has NOT dropped as claimed.

my experience in the matter would prove the statement to be correct.

It does not prove any thing as I stated in my other post, which you obviously did not read or understand.

 

[batt600]

Hay Boomer yes theres no scientific evidence I not fighting you on that . But i used a needle wheel on my skimmer that i once had and my K level were low every week but when i changed to a pinwheel skimmer my k level stayed at 380 it been 3m now and my levels stay in the 380 range . Why is that then . I still use the same salt that i been using for a year now.

 

[batt600]

Ok my be you guys are getting it confused here is a pick of a needle wheel on the right and a pinwheel on the left all skimmer you buy now have pinwheel but when you look at there listing they say needlewheel

 

[KathyC]

Hay Boomer yes theres no scientific evidence I not fighting you on that . But i used a needle wheel on my skimmer that i once had and my K level were low every week but when i changed to a pinwheel skimmer my k level stayed at 380 it been 3m now and my levels stay in the 380 range . Why is that then . I still use the same salt that i been using for a year now.

There is no guarantee to the exact measurement of each ingredient included in your salt mix either.
Salt mixes - even from the same company - can have different levels of ingredients from bucket to bucket.

I think it is a bit of a reach to blame the design of a skimmer's wheel for singling out and reducing one particular element in your tank.

 

[batt600]

There is no guarantee to the exact measurement of each ingredient included in your salt mix either.
Salt mixes - even from the same company - can have different levels of ingredients from bucket to bucket.

I think it is a bit of a reach to blame the design of a skimmer's wheel for singling out and reducing one particular element in your tank.

Ok but why did i loose my k level with the needlewheel and not the pinwheel . And im not saying it the skimmer its the wheel used on the skimmer. And aslo why am i not the only one that experience this problem .

 

[batt600]

Ok here a post from G.Alexander to me





G.Alexander

ZEOadmin
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 14,735

Hi Batt, I have experienced this in my old tank while using a overrated BK skimmer with a titanium needle wheel a couple of years back. This problem has gone when the needle wheel was replaced with a pinwheel.

Since I use a ventury style skimmer in conjunction with a salt having a natural K+ concentration for the regular water changs no additional K+ supplementing is necessary.

G.Alexander
__________________

 

[KathyC]

Ok but why did i loose my k level with the needlewheel and not the pinwheel . And im not saying it the skimmer its the wheel used on the skimmer. And aslo why am i not the only one that experience this problem .

Coincidence perhaps, as you keep focusing on the skimmer wheel itself. Who knows, maybe it's the particular type of coral/s you keep that use up more K...or the salt...or something you are not taking into consideration at all !

Boomer explained to you above (in great detail I might add ) that SCIENTIFICALLY it cannot be true.

 

[batt600]

Coincidence perhaps, as you keep focusing on the skimmer wheel itself. Who knows, maybe it's the particular type of coral/s you keep that use up more K...or the salt...or something you are not taking into consideration at all !

Boomer explained to you above (in great detail I might add ) that SCIENTIFICALLY it cannot be true.

Yeah put i dont have a problem with my k level no more when i changed skimmers. Boomer saying it the zoelites but its not i still use zeo and my k levels is not effected any more

 

[Boomer]

As I said earlier;

"More than likley this so called depletion of K+ from these skimmers is really something else you are not looking at i.e, exporting more bacteria, then maybe it will drop or same input and more export, where many things will drop. So, it is really NOT the skimmer doing it as it can't "

Meaning, for example, this skimmer is exporting more bacteria, then the K+ in the tank may drop due to the production of more new bacteria in the tank. A skimmer can not take out a charged Cation like K+, accept in tin amounts, just like other ions found in skimmer water. So, it is by some other means your K+ is depleting and the type of simmer is secondary. Meaning, if there was not some K+ export via say bacteria or other organic "thing' then the K+ would not be affect by the skimmer and the K+ would not depelte. It is like if you came into the house from outside and the wife insists it is raining outside as you are all wet, but what really happen is that you set off the sprinkler and got all wet but you never told her that. So, she assumes it is raining out and you let her have here way Yes, you are wet but not from rain but it is like a form of rain isn't it ?

 

[Boomer]

Batt

You need to lean to read what I write

Boomer saying it the zoelites but its not i still use zeo and my k levels is not effected any more

1. "It is a well known fact among Zeo people that Zeolites deplete K+, as the K+ kicks out the Na+ in the zeo structure and replaces it with K+. This a major factor why they test for it and add it to Zeo systems"

2. "More than likley this so called depletion of K+ from these skimmers is really something else you are not looking at i.e, exporting more bacteria, then maybe it will drop or same input and more export, where many things will drop. So, it is really NOT the skimmer doing it as it can't"

So, K+ depletion is a two-fold "thing" in Zeo systems. Claude Schuhmacher, owner of Fauna Marine will tell you flat out that Zeo's deplete K+ as he sells Zeolites. Fresh Zeo do this and if they are in the system long enough this K+ depletion from Zeo's will stop or if one is usnig a K+ based Aluminosilicate zeo. There are many forms of the so called "Zeo System", such the Italian Blue System, Fauna Marine, Brightwell and DIY Zeo Systems.

G. Alexander

I know him well, so you may want to tell him who you are arguing with

 

[batt600]

Batt

You need to lean to read what I write

Boomer saying it the zoelites but its not i still use zeo and my k levels is not effected any more

1. "It is a well known fact among Zeo people that Zeolites deplete K+, as the K+ kicks out the Na+ in the zeo structure and replaces it with K+. This a major factor why they test for it and add it to Zeo systems"

2. "More than likley this so called depletion of K+ from these skimmers is really something else you are not looking at i.e, exporting more bacteria, then maybe it will drop or same input and more export, where many things will drop. So, it is really NOT the skimmer doing it as it can't"

So, K+ depletion is a two-fold "thing" in Zeo systems. Claude Schuhmacher, owner of Fauna Marine will tell you flat out that Zeo's deplete K+ as he sells Zeolites. Fresh Zeo do this and if they are in the system long enough this K+ depletion from Zeo's will stop or if one is usnig a K+ based Aluminosilicate zeo. There are many forms of the so called "Zeo System", such the Italian Blue System, Fauna Marine, Brightwell and DIY Zeo Systems.

G. Alexander

I know him well, so you may want to tell him who you are arguing with

Dude i not arguing with you . I read what you wrote . And here we go again i said it not the skimmer it the wheel . Needlewheels cut the bubbles in the skimmer but not evenly you will get some small and some big bubbles the small fine mirco bubble trap organic waste and other elements in the water and removes them (Makes foam ) but the bigger bubble remove more elements in the water that needed and it my aslo be removing k levels as well .The pinwheel give you very fine bubbles and remover the elements in the water that are need to be removed and very little that is needed.

 

[Boomer]

There is no sense in giong on any further you are lost and not listening. Yes, you are still arguing and saying the skimmer is taking out K+. K+ is an element by itself.