Skeptical about: "Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 2 - Magic in a Bottle By Richard Ross"

[Thales]

Hey CJ,
I'll be in NJ in November and in Brooklyn (and maybe AMW) in March - you gonna be around?

Tossing around ideas for the next in the series too - 10 reefing myths explored, or maybe something along the lines of why people don't change their opinions - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/03/confirmation-bias-scientific-evidence

 

[cjdevito]

Hey CJ,
I'll be in NJ in November and in Brooklyn (and maybe AMW) in March - you gonna be around?

November might be iffy, but march I don't have anything likely to pop up.

Tossing around ideas for the next in the series too - 10 reefing myths explored, or maybe something along the lines of why people don't change their opinions - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jul/03/confirmation-bias-scientific-evidence

Heh. I'm halfway through a draft of 'Reefkeeping: You're Doing it Wrong' , highlighting where the hobby is worse today than it was 15 years ago. It may just end up as a rant for the Sump.

 

[NYreefNoob]

boiling water, lemon juice, kalkwasser and many other things will kill aptasia if used correctly and injected correctly, does the bottle tell you to have a syphon next to the aptasia after you zap it ? once it implodes it will release and cause more aptasia.

there is a certain company that made claims to their salt that was completely in-correct in the way the made the claims,

as well as alot of other companies that do the same thing, the best thing that ever happened to this hobby is the internet, but even with that people still refuse to do some reseach themselves or go by what 1 or 2 people have to say, one of my things i always say to people is look at the tank of the person giving you info

 

[Boomer]

Hi Rich

 

[Thales]

Bonjour Senior Boomer!

 

[Warrior24_7]

Awww... football season!

I am familiar with the product. I have used it. As I said, there are plenty of reports of using it, and the aps coming back from tissue left at the base after treatment. Again, the use of a biological control after such a treatment seems to make it more likely that the biological control will consume the left over/regenerating aps.

That was not "my" experience. Nothing "grew back" from where it was killed at. The Copperband didn't eat any at first, because there was other food in the tank that he preferred (I was warned of this). Later he just went to town on these things.

Here is where the problem with anecdotal accounts comes into play. It appears to kill the aps in seconds - but if there is any tissue left, the pest can 'grow back'.

I agree, that is why you must "use" the product (correctly) yourself. You said "I am familiar with the product. I have used it."-Thales. So did any "grow back"? Did you kill every-last-one? You can answer that question yourself. Right?


[QUOTESo, which are you giving credit to for the aps going away in your tank - the product or the fish? Or both? If the product works, why bother with the biological control?[/QUOTE]
Both. I killed every one that I could see and reach. The fish did the rest. The fish is now just part of the tank so there is no need to get rid of him. Plus the pests can be easily re-introduced and I would have to get another one and do this all over again. Right now I have a Copperband that eats Aiptasias and I "know" he eats them. The key here is to act swiftly if you see any, and not let them get to plague proportions. I actually ground a few into the rock with a scewdriver I was so frustrated. Its the same thing with bubble algea, if you see it, kill it.

That is not an accurate representation of my experience with 'products'.

Its either that, or you used them. There is no way that I could say with any credibility that FWE works! I've never used it. To tell somebody that would be no different than a company making a claim with no verification, none! The fact that you're so skepitical of companies making claims and NOT of what you are being told on the internet, by people you don't know, whom may have not have used the product correctly, or even used the product at all themselves. I don't understand how you can't fathom that? I'm not saying that these people are all liars, but you can't say "yep, brand B works, I know this because AcanLord X (fictional name) said it did!" That kind of data is just so, sooo flawed.

That is not the case.

Then whats the case is if you haven't used it.

That is not the case, and, again, I disagree that you need to have used a product to have, to use your word, 'credible' opinions on it.

Once you say something works or doesn't work, based of off nothing more than hearsay and opinion, and "you" haven't used it, then its just not credible...at all! The reasons for this are just way too obvious.

 

[beerfish]

Once you say something works or doesn't work, based of off nothing more than hearsay and opinion, and "you" haven't used it, then its just not credible...at all! The reasons for this are just way too obvious.

Have you ever driven a Ferrari? I haven't, but I can tell you that they work. I might not be able to give specifics on how they drive, but I can tell you that they're able to drive, and that they're fast.

 

[Thales]

Its either that, or you used them.

There are more than those two possibilities.

The fact that you're so skepitical of companies making claims and NOT of what you are being told on the internet, by people you don't know, whom may have not have used the product correctly, or even used the product at all themselves.

I am skeptical of internet claims. The first article in the series was about internet claims, the second was about product claims.

I don't understand how you can't fathom that?

I can fathom it, but it isn't what I am doing or recommend doing. Check out the first article in the series.

I'm not saying that these people are all liars, but you can't say "yep, brand B works, I know this because AcanLord X (fictional name) said it did!" That kind of data is just so, sooo flawed.

Yep - see above.

Then whats the case is if you haven't used it.

I disagree. I do not have to use copper in a reef tank to be sure that copper can kill corals because the work has already been done.

Once you say something works or doesn't work, based of off nothing more than hearsay and opinion, and "you" haven't used it, then its just not credible...at all!

Good thing I haven't done that! Again, see the first article in the series - we agree on a lot of stuff.

The reasons for this are just way too obvious.

They are and they aren't, which is why I wrote an article, part one of the Skeptical series, about that very issue. Of course with the exception that you have to use a product to have a credible opinion on its efficacy.

 

[Thales]

Have you ever driven a Ferrari? I haven't, but I can tell you that they work. I might not be able to give specifics on how they drive, but I can tell you that they're able to drive, and that they're fast.

Absolutely!

Small samples of 'hearsay and opinion' should be looked at very carefully, but a preponderance of opinion, especially opinion that you trust for one reason or another, can add up to useful information.

For instance, I have no problem telling people not to raise cephalopods on any kind of brine shrimp - adult or bbs. I have never used it myself to raise them, nor am I aware of any studies documenting its use either positively or negatively. I am however, aware of dozens if not hundreds or researchers and hobbyists trying it resulting in dead cephs. Might one day someone discover a way to make brine shrimp useful as a ceph diet? Maybe. But in the meantime, there is no reason to risk more animals just to see if everyone else was right or not. Although, an actual study would be useful because it could give us actual data on, among other things, the utility of using it as an 'emergency' food.

 

[Warrior24_7]

boiling water, lemon juice, kalkwasser and many other things will kill aptasia if used correctly and injected correctly, does the bottle tell you to have a syphon next to the aptasia after you zap it ? once it implodes it will release and cause more aptasia.

The "bottle" doesn't have any instructions, and I no longer have mine. The product dissolves in the water. They tell you to turn off your pumps as not to blow the product all over the place (at first I didn't heed this warning). Place the syringe w/product into the anemone and release the product in the mouth...bang! I don't remember a siphon, but someone with the instructions can verify that, or you can do it yourself.

there is a certain company that made claims to their salt that was completely in-correct in the way the made the claims

I don't doubt it, but the only way that this was found out is through testing or use, not hearsay, opinion, or "skepticism".

as well as alot of other companies that do the same thing, the best thing that ever happened to this hobby is the internet, but even with that people still refuse to do some reseach themselves or go by what 1 or 2 people have to say, one of my things i always say to people is look at the tank of the person giving you info

The internet is a good source, but its still the internet! You get mixed results on the same product, it works for some, for some it doesn't. People say what they want here so you must verify it by trying the product yourself. Also looking at "pictures" of someone's tank can be misleading as well, how do you know thats his tank? Also many LFS owners that I know set-up and maintain tanks for people. So that person's knowledge and experience may not be where it should. If he is letting someone else maintain his tank, then he is not dealing with any of the problems, the other guy is.

 

[Thales]

I don't doubt it, but the only way that this was found out is through testing or use, not hearsay, opinion, or "skepticism".

You are using the word 'skepticism' differently (perhaps in exactly the way I said it should not be used) than I have used it.

Skepticism includes through testing and use. Direct, personal, empirical, experience (which you seem to be saying is the only/best way to know if something works) can be prone incorrect conclusions and can be the source of hearsay and opinion. See the part about Ginger in the first article in the series.

 

[Warrior24_7]

You are using the word 'skepticism' differently (perhaps exactly what I said it is not in the articles) than I have used it.

C'mon.

Skepticism includes through testing and use.-Thales

What?!! When?!! Is that you Thales? So are you still going to be "skepitcal" after you tested and used the product?!! Hmmm... it doesn't seem to be working, but I don't know...

Direct, personal, empirical, experience (which you seem to be saying is the only/best way to know if something works)

You, are your own best source. Period. If you tried something and it works, it works. You know that. I would've never known that Aiptasia X kills aiptasia if I hadn't used it. Listening to other people's hit-or-miss, second hand accounts and standing there "skeptical" would've done nothing for my problem. Before you make a blanket statement that products work/don't work without any personal knowledge or scientific "proof". Then the statement is not credible.

can be prone incorrect conclusions and can be the source of hearsay and opinion. See the part about Ginger in the first article in the series.

Wait a minute, I thought "hearsay" and "opinion" were good and thats all you needed?!! What happened to anecdote? You "can" put your opinions out on the internet, and they would have no more credibility than anyone else's, but you "know" that you've used the product. You can't say that about anybody else.

 

[ellebelle]

I think the Aiptasia X example is not a particularly good one. There is a lot of conflicting information out there on whether or not that particular product works - enough that I think many people would give it a try. For every person who says it is awesome and it works, there is another person who says don't bother. I don't think there is a preponderance of evidence one way or another.

 

[Warrior24_7]

I think the Aiptasia X example is not a particularly good one. There is a lot of conflicting information out there on whether or not that particular product works - enough that I think many people would give it a try. For every person who says it is awesome and it works, there is another person who says don't bother. I don't think there is a preponderance of evidence one way or another.

Its a perfect example and this is EXACTLY my point! The product worked for "me", so i'll continue to use it. Nobody can tell me differently and have me believe it. For everbody else, how do you know that they used the product correctly, or even at all? Exactly, you don't! If you don't find them all, and kill them all, then you'll still have problems. Since its direct application, its tedious work as you can imagine. So if you're "infested" you might have to dismantle your rock work to get at them.

 

[Warrior24_7]

Have you ever driven a Ferrari? I haven't, but I can tell you that they work. I might not be able to give specifics on how they drive, but I can tell you that they're able to drive, and that they're fast.

Really? So you know a car works by just looking at it? I bet you're a used car salesman's wet dream!

 

[Wes]

Re: Skeptical about: "Skeptical Reefkeeping Part 2

This "discussion" is getting a little tired.

It's in everyone's best interest to be skeptical of product claims. It's one of the basic rules of being a smart consumer.

False claims are one of the main reasons the FDA was created. People sold magical elixirs aka "snake oil" that supposedly cured everything. It wasn't long after people started dying when the FDA was created.

Unfortunately there are no regulations on aquarium products. People can make all kinds of crazy claims with no proof to back them up. It is in everyone's best interest to be skeptical, period.


Sent from my iPhone using Reefs

 

[cupcake]

+1

 

[beerfish]

Really? So you know a car works by just looking at it? I bet you're a used car salesman's wet dream!

You've reached a point where you're arguing just for the sake of arguing, and it's getting irritating.

:dead:

 

[cupcake]

+1

 

[marrone]

I think this thread has run its course, whatever that may have been.


:givebeer: