New Turf Results

[clekchau1]

btw vitz, your tank is very nice

 

[ZooKeeper1]

More like the single largest promotion of misinformation I've ever seen on the net. LOL

 

[clekchau1]

i remember thats what bb tank advocates stated about dsb's also , or cooking rocks, or dosing sugar, or t5's replacing metal halides, or .... yeah LOL

 

[ZooKeeper1]

???

Am I the only one who can't understand what you post ? What are you trying to say, that BB guys posted disinformation on almost every major reef site in the world ?

 

[clekchau1]

not sure how else to convey it, alot of misinformation has been posted about going outside of what works for some but not for others, bb fanatics post misinformation about dsb's to the point of 80 page thread arguments back and forth, same with dosing sugar, lighting etc

i guess my point can be summarized with what the owner of the tank who did use a skimmerless ats system successfully for many years posted on this thread:

I think it is great that the santa feller is using his head and working through the process and trying new things. We were all there at one time or another and some things you just gotta try for yourself.

if anyone with half a brain can see thru sm's bad assumptions as vitz put it, then let people decide for themselves if this is a mega powerful device that will replace skimmers or an overzealous passionate reefer experimenting with 'old' technology to try to fine tune it.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

At least they discussed it. Also there were real facts put forth and countless studies on the subject. Completely unlike this.

 

[clekchau1]

i see your point, i really do, too bad you fail to grasp mine *sigh*

 

[Anonymous]

btw vitz, your tank is very nice

thx

it's still an algae laden baby though

 

[ZooKeeper1]

LOL I do, but this is not the way to further an idea.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

I really think that just like the DSB debate, it's about understanding how the filtration system you choose to use works. If you understand that, then you'll know its inherent limitations and be able to deal with them. This one like all the others has limitations, but is touted as being a replacement for everything. It's not, it's just another too that people can use. There is no need to discredit proven methods to promote using algae as an export.

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Do you get some thrill out of being SMs only defender. No matter what bull he posts you still back him up. I saw that tank yes. But did it also have a DSB? How often was the water changed? Was it overfed? Was it under stocked? Theres sooooo many variables at play here that one cannot Boldly state that a certain piece of equipment is useless. :roll: Bu then again IVe said this like ten times now and SM hasnt replied but you have....interesting. :wink:

probaly as much as you get a thrill out of being an annoying , and if you read the thread or the guys tank, it gives you all the information, overfed, stocked with plenty of fish, very little if any water changes, 5 years of excellent coral/fish growth. don't worry about op, what do you think about the tank i'm referring to?


and what is interesting? are you trying to imply i'm sm? i don't even have an ats or recommend it, show me where i have?

How am I being annoying? By pointing out that your an idiot? Sorry to annoy you. But like everyone on here has been saying, you cant claim something gets rid of a skimmer on TONNES of boards without any documentation. End of argument. Im not going to back and forth with you anymore because your arguing his right to spam boards with "free speech" and were arguing that his claims are unjust and biased. I think this thread will just keep going and going and going because you fail to see what the actual argument is. You would rather pat him on the back and say "good job keep being creative" when hes not being creative, hes downing a major piece of reefkeeping equipment that has taken tanks in the 80s that look like...well....ATS tanks...and made them look like...well any Tank of the Month. Good riddance.

 

[blackcloudmedia]

Which of these is not like the rest....hmm

 

[Anonymous]

i remember thats what bb tank advocates stated about dsb's also , or cooking rocks, or dosing sugar, or t5's replacing metal halides, or .... yeah LOL

Sure, but most of the people were actually saying that they all have their place! I guess most people just remember the entertaining ones instead of the majority of the discussion.

 

[Anonymous]

Chaeto is algae. And algal exudates are the mechanism that is being touted as the yellowing offender.

so you're saying that all algaes are dentical in what they produce ?

you're equating chaeto with turf algaes ?

Then I'd like someone to explain why my tank, and even several others running on just algae in some form or another, are doing great

your tank isn't close enough to running long enough to make any conclusions about anything-wait 5 yrs, running a few hundred tanks w/a control group of equal size, THEN get back to us, m'kay ?

'some form or another? you mean like the cyano and hair algaes hlf of thm show in their pics? :lol:

what happened to the turf being necessary? you chnaging your tune? that was awfully quick! :lol:

Then so can fuge macro.

REALLY ??!! have you tested this ? are you saying that ALL ALGAES METABOLIZE AT THE SAME RATES ?

everything you write is merely a blanket claim with no basis in fact, or testing, or data

juat because you think you can label things as food or waste doesn't mean you're labeling them correctly-you truly do not understand that ALL FOOD IS WASTE AND ALL WASTE IS FOOD ?

you know NOTHING-not about PO4, NO3, or the various algaes and their differences/similiarities

just how many years of study and/or experience do you have with algaes ?

do you even know how many different species of turf algaes there are, and the metabolic differences of each ?

I seem to remember .3 or .4 or such. And not sure of the time of day. I'm assuming he's been testing for a while to know that there was a change. There usually is a change, but just .1 or .2

hell, you're not even investigating/analyzing the 'results' provided by those you think support your case, and by doing so, you are also misrepresenting THEM

you do know the old saw about what you do when you ASSume things, don't you ?


again, we have a total ignoramus spewing forth total tripe and bs as if it was factual

you need to be banned from every single reefkeeping bb on the planet, imo.

an apology to the mods for the following, but i'm compelled to say it:

Santa, you are truly a dumba**, and a danger to hobbyists everywhere-you are also spreading complete falsehoods and mis/myth-information, and your obstinate REFUSAL to acknowledge FACTS is not only astounding, it proves what a total fool you are


what a crock of bs you are

you're worse than naesco and beasleboy put together- i didn't think that was even possible 8O

you make me sick-you truly do-the only thing worse than being ignorant is being ignorant because YOU CHOOSE TO BE

 

[ZooKeeper1]

Thi is yor quote

gorgs, sponges, dendro's, flower pots, cauliflowers) which stay open and feeding 24/7

And your answer

They are accumulating, both naturally and by purchase. Those pics were at 4 weeks. I recently had a bloom of white sponges that took over my elegance; they are under every rock now.

We all have sponges. Big deal. Where are the others ? Even though you don't have those, if you did, 4 weeks would not mean much.


Your opinions are not based on facts. We have provided you with facts so you can learn, but yet you refuse to learn. I for one have posted how a skimmer removes inorganic N and P. And also have shown how organic N and P are broken down into inorganics. Pretty basic stuff. Get a grip on the basics so you don't sound so ignorant.

 

[clekchau1]

Do you get some thrill out of being SMs only defender. No matter what bull he posts you still back him up. I saw that tank yes. But did it also have a DSB? How often was the water changed? Was it overfed? Was it under stocked? Theres sooooo many variables at play here that one cannot Boldly state that a certain piece of equipment is useless. :roll: Bu then again IVe said this like ten times now and SM hasnt replied but you have....interesting. :wink:

probaly as much as you get a thrill out of being an annoying , and if you read the thread or the guys tank, it gives you all the information, overfed, stocked with plenty of fish, very little if any water changes, 5 years of excellent coral/fish growth. don't worry about op, what do you think about the tank i'm referring to?


and what is interesting? are you trying to imply i'm sm? i don't even have an ats or recommend it, show me where i have?

How am I being annoying? By pointing out that your an idiot? Sorry to annoy you. But like everyone on here has been saying, you cant claim something gets rid of a skimmer on TONNES of boards without any documentation. End of argument. Im not going to back and forth with you anymore because your arguing his right to spam boards with "free speech" and were arguing that his claims are unjust and biased. I think this thread will just keep going and going and going because you fail to see what the actual argument is. You would rather pat him on the back and say "good job keep being creative" when hes not being creative, hes downing a major piece of reefkeeping equipment that has taken tanks in the 80s that look like...well....ATS tanks...and made them look like...well any Tank of the Month. Good riddance.

now i see you are reduced to calling people names behind the back of a computer to prove your point, nice. i never pat him on the back for making bold, undocumented claims, in fact i never even agreed with him, are you that illiterate to not see my point?

i see the argument fine and i do agree with zookeeper, gresham, even vitz to a point, i just feel there could but more tact and encouragement and less flames and criticism, like the other guy mentioned, we have all started out and have been there before.

unfortunately you are still an annoying troll in my book so good riddance to you also.

 

[clekchau1]

Which of these is not like the rest....hmm

you are giving examples by picking and choosing the worst looking tanks run with an ats and the best tanks run by a skimmer? :lol:

why didn't you post pics of bruce's ats/carbon filtered tank? are you saying his tank looks bad? you asked for variables for his tank, i posted them and you completly ignored it, lol at least vitz is posting documented information to back up his claims, you are just trolling.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

Increased DOC correlates to decreased bacteria. See here:

You've got that Backward...

And I can't believe you brought up that video again. Your assumptions of that video are the exact opposite of the presenters, but you somehow think it favors algae. That video is completely about how algal exudates kill coral. In fact they show how the DOC increases the growth of bacteria which cause the coral to go hypoxic and die. Increase in bacteria, not a decrease. Watch it again please and let it sink in.

 

[ZooKeeper1]

ABSTRACT
Declines in coral cover are generally associated with increases in the abundance of fleshy algae. In many cases, it remains unclear whether algae are responsible, directly or indirectly, for coral death or whether they simply settle on dead coral surfaces. Here, we show that algae can indirectly cause coral mortality by enhancing microbial activity via the release of dissolved compounds. When coral and algae were placed in chambers together but separated by a 0.02 μm filter, corals suffered 100% mortality. With the addition of the broad-spectrum antibiotic ampicillin, mortality was completely prevented. Physiological measurements showed complementary patterns of increasing coral stress with proximity to algae. Our results suggest that as human impacts increase and algae become more abundant on reefs a positive feedback loop may be created whereby compounds released by algae enhance microbial activity on live coral surfaces causing mortality of corals and further algal growth.

corals died when placed adjacent to macroalgae, even when separated by a 0.02 µm membrane that was impermeable to viruses and microbes, but not dissolved compounds like DOC. The algae increased microbial growth on the coral, which in turn caused hypoxia and presumably the coral mortality. Coral mortality did not occur in this experiment when antibiotics were added [77]. These results suggest that algal-derived DOC may be a primary driver of coral-microbial interactions. In addition, algae-associated microbial communities harbor pathogens that cause coral disease [78].

How is this proof that algae is good and skimmers are bad ???

In a classic case of "not doing research", some anti-turf folks on another site have ended up helping out the turf scene. They are constantly accusing pro-turf or pro-algae folks, and especially anti-skimmer folks, of not having research. So they post a research video from the College of Marine Science (U of S. FL, St. Petersburg) on that site, which is supposed to prove with research that algae, especially turf, kills corals. Yes. Then they
follow it up with "So I guess you didn't watch the video, right?"

Well. I took the time to watch it (one hour). But, I guess they did NOT. The video starts out appearing to make the point of "algae kills corals", and if you stopped watching after fifteen minutes, that's what you'd think. But the first part of that presentation is just a setup for the presenter's further explanations, and is not the point itself.

It's a similar situation to a presentation for beginners about how rock, sand, and the nitrogen cycle works: You would start by saying "If I have a fish in a bucket of water, and I pour in ammonia, the fish will die." This is true, but it's only used to set up later explanations of how rock and sand come into the picture to stop the death of the fish.

So it turns out that if you watch the whole research video, the presenter/researcher not only makes the point of pro-algae folks, and counters the point of the people who posted it (as their evidence), but it also counters the entire group of people who say no-skimmers and high-DOC's are bad. I've been saying that my focus never was skimmer or no-skimmer; instead my focus was reducing N and P cheaply, quickly, and with no risk. But since these people made this video/research available, I'll use it:

The presenter is trying to show how "algae that kills coral" would SEEM to occur, so later he can show you what they really found in their research. The crux of his presentation is basically: "We thought higher DOC's were the cause of coral death; We were wrong. Lower DOC's are" (these are my words).

And how could you ever come to this conclusion ?

The crux of his presentation is basically: "We thought higher DOC's were the cause of coral death; We were wrong. Lower DOC's are" (these are my words).

 

[Anonymous]

Or you could just plumb in fresh seawater for a daily water change.

http://algalturfscrubber.com/index.htm

Nice tank. It's got a refugium with 6 400 watt halides and an ATS. Two liters of sea water replacement a day, and it looks like that.

ANY MORE QUESTIONS ??

Yuck. If my tank looked like that I would leave the hobby.


***edit***
And that is a successful system per Adey! His definition of success and mine are vastly different.