Anyone used it?

[FragMaster]

They do not harvest rock the rock any where near Ancolet island. Ancolet is a preserve.
They do it 6 miles out in the gulf. Ancolet is used as a bearing point.
I cant find anything supporting warm currents year round in that specific are though. ( nor did I claim to ). The only one argueing a point never even called into question is you know who.

The keys however (caribbean not north around Miami), water temps are prety much no lower that 76F at any time of the year.

Just email them and get it over with guys! LOL!!

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not interested in the argument, but has anyone thought to look at ocean temperature charts? The climate zone might not mean much if warm currents are bringing water north. You might have fully tropical ocean temeratures in a technically sub-tropical climate zone, as you do in the Keys.

Just because Tampa is pretty far north up Florida's west coast doesn't mean the water at the depth of the rock plots gets that much colder than the water farther south. For all anyone in this discussion knows, warm currents might make tampa's sea floor practically tropical and supportive of life that thrives at the temperatures of our reef tanks.


Personally, I'd like to see some ocean floor temperature measurements comparing the keys and tampa. Not SST charts, but rather the water at a regular reef depth. That would settle this silly argument and tell us all whether or not the comment about cooler water life forms inhabiting the rock sold by this company holds any water.

The Florida tourism site recommends 3/8" wet suits for diving during winter months in the area where their live rock is situated because water temps are 51 degrees F. I would assume that divers are descending to "regular reef depth."

I think someone already established that animals that thrive in water temps in the 70s can and do survive a couple of months of lower temps each year.

So what is the average temperature year round where their rock plots are?

 

[GSchiemer]

According to Dr. Ron, it's just the opposite: The Gulf lifeforms manage to survive for a couple of months at the elevated temperatures but can't live at tropical temperatures year-round. The average year-round temperature is not meaningful; it's the fact the the Gulf rock is harvested in water that hovers in the mid to low 50's for a good part of the year.

Can I borrow the gun in your avatar? I want to shoot myself for continuing to participate in this thread.

Greg

 

[Entacmaea]

http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/cwtg/egof.html

http://marine.rutgers.edu/mrs/sat_data/ ... oridacoast

Data data, we love data.

In general I would agree with Greg that it is the temperature SWING that differentiates the organisms on the TBS rock from those in more stable tropical zones, rather than absolute water temperature.

That being said, I'll take the denser rock to save a reef. Seriously everyone, why would one do otherwise? Not trying to be tyrannical here, but small differences in price, density and mixed reviews about hitchhiker organism long-term survivability are small prices to pay and petty arguments IMO considering the state of reefs today. I'm surprised this board and its leaders haven't taken on more of a role in encouraging sustainable practices. Frag swaps are fantastic. Seriously, bravo. But I think we can do more. In 25 years this debate will be decided for us anyway. It would probably behoove us to get ahead of the curve. Sorry to be ornary, I think we need some perspective here. We need to start reevaluating the word "better" and what that means. Where is the Zero Impact Tank contest? Why wasn't impact on reefs a judging criteria for the Nano Build-Off? You get my point.

Okay, off the soap box :lol:

As for LR, here is a link to making your own LR as well, adding pasta (which disinegrates during curing) you can make it pretty darn porous. Many other links exist as well. Happy Google-ing

http://www.garf.org/aragwk/aragareadyorder.html

Best, Peter

 

[GSchiemer]

Peter,

What kind of rock will you be using in the "largest living reef tank in the world" at the Steinhart Aquarium?

Greg

 

[Entacmaea]

All propagated Walt Smith, 600 pound orders at a time

We have a coral grow out system gorwing coral from propagated frags for the next two years.

We walk the walk.

 

[Anonymous]

Why wasn't impact on reefs a judging criteria for the Nano Build-Off? You get my point.

Perhaps it was only coincidence but the nano that won (mine) was absolutely a zero impact reef tank. Everything in the tank was propogated. I know this to be true because I propogated all of it myself, including the rocks, corals, snails, and even the fish.

I still like the Gulf rock and I would absolutely do it again should I need more rock. I have to wonder if Dr. Ron was guessing that the animals would die off or if he has actually owned some and saw for himself. I did not notice any die off of the hitchhikers on the Gulf rock I purchased except for some Tunicates and Barnacles. I don't think those animals typically survive a captive environment anyway.

I am not saying the rock didn't come from an area considered to be temperate. All I am saying is that I did not notice a die-off and I know for a fact that my rock came from the Gulf site, and not from the Caribbean site.

 

[Entacmaea]

Guy- one of the reasons I liked yours so much! Great job.

 

[FragMaster]

Ask Doctor Ron if he his basing is statements on physical experimentation,
Or edjucated guessing?
Animals that can survive temperature swings from 52 to90 degress F can live through just about anything, including a stable 80deg f reef tank with more controlled conditions than most laboratries couldnt they?
LOL!

 

[Entacmaea]

Some shots of our propagation system. The lights are 1000 watts, each system has a dedicated skimmer and chiller. The white agricultural bins are about 200 gallons each, and we have about 50 of them throughout the building.

[/img]

 

[Anonymous]

8O

 

[Anonymous]

(still searching for that "drooling" emoticon)



...wow...

 

[Entacmaea]

Frag Master- your logic would seem correct.... However, one main effect on coral reefs, as we know, are high sea temperatures, which are measured in days above mean (normal) sea temperature for their particular local. Studies show (like the latest UNEP state of the world's reefs report) that X number of days above mean temperature causes ill effects, bleaching, etc. It is the combined effect of temperature and time. So for instance, a tunicate or coral whose "mean" temperature is say 74 degrees can stand swings for sure, even wide swings, as long as the temperature gets back to mean ultimately. But, a tank with a stable 81 degrees would always be above mean temperature, and would most likely be detrimental.

 

[GSchiemer]

Ask Doctor Ron if he his basing is statements on physical experimentation,
Or edjucated guessing?
Animals that can survive temperature swings from 52 to90 degress F can live through just about anything, including a stable 80deg f reef tank with more controlled conditions than most laboratries couldnt they?
LOL!

What!? Where do you get this stuff? Do you make it up as you go along?

The temperate Gulf region is a completely distinct ecosystem from the tropics. If the lifeforms living there could survive at tropical temperatures year-round, you would also find them living in the tropics. You don't because they can't. It's the same reason you don't find the corals and fish native to the Florida Keys living in Tampa Bay.

I'll wait now to see how you twist this.

BTW "fragmaster" why don't you ask Dr. Ron yourself.

 

[GSchiemer]

All propagated Walt Smith, 600 pound orders at a time

We have a coral grow out system gorwing coral from propagated frags for the next two years.

We walk the walk.

Very commendable Peter. Based upon your comments and others I've heard, I'm sure the aquarium will be spectacular.

Greg

 

[FragMaster]

Greg
Give me Dr. Rons email and I will ask him, my self. ( or should we take that answer to mean NO he hasnt?)
You are the most arguementative person I have met on this board yet.
Guy has stated ALL of his "temperate' water species he has purchased from TBS are still alive and kicking after quite a while,
as well as SEVERAL other people who have purchased rock from them.
Look on Reefcentral in the TBS forum. Hell look all over the internet as far back as 10 years ago if you want to realy read into it.
But that isnt good enough for you.... Nope.. instead you harp over and over again about a point I wasnt even debating, or trying to make, now your trying to say I am comparing the temperate gulf region to the tropics. Seems to me the only person trying to twist things is you.
Your opinion is fine. Everyone should have one and be allowed to voice it.
But stop attacking me, and making absolutely nonsense statements about things I didnt even say.
BTW if it is such a pain for you to participate in this thread the exit is the same door you came in.


Entacmaea:
I see your point, and I thank you for the time to lay it all out for me in such detail. the information you shared is factual. I dont deny it.

BUT... LOL! ( I know there is always a " but") My experiences with them has been quite the oposite. For instance florida ricodea ( thier found in some what temperate water as well), Gorgonians of all types, sea cucumbers, snails, crabs, shrimp and coral, and (two realy big one's) hopocampus zoastrea seahorses, and hippocampus erectus seahorses. I have been an avid seahorse keeper since I was a kid. Specificly dwarf seahorses, and for the past 3 years erectus. Both originate from temperate waters but yet both I keep in a 78 deg F enviorment. ( and my coral from florida and other parts of the world)
( recommended temp for keeping either is below 74).
They are all fat and healthy and reproduce regularly. as do all of my floridian species coral. Take Marathon island and Taverniern island.
Not quite tropical but still produces zoanthids, gorgoinians, ricordea and an abundance of life you can find along the shore line. Water temps there also reach the low 60's

Warming currents are indeed destroying reefs around the world.
That I can not argue and wouldnt.


One of the most mysterious things about this hobby is
you and I could have the same coral species in our tanks.
The same lighting, same level of care, same every thing.
Mine might not live past three months in an optimum enviorment.
Yours (set up the same as mine, and same level of care) may live for years and years.
I believe the same applies for floridian temperate species as that has been exactly my experiences with them thus far.


( if any of that seems jumbled its because I am talking on the phone and typing at the same time LOL!)

 

[Entacmaea]

Thanks Greg- anytime you are in town and want a tour- let me know!

Fragmaster, I think the point that people are trying to make is that there are separate species that live in temperate and tropical biotopes because they have evolved that way. I'm glad that you have had success keeping a mix of species.

 

[Len]

As I see it, TBS clearly states the temperature ranges from 52 to 91. Greg argues that rocks coming from waters of this temperature aren't the best choice for tropical reef aquariums. Frgamaster argues the rock is fine for reef aquarium use and that others have experienced success with TBS rock.

All the other arguments about exact location, etc. (and especially the ad hominem arguments) are trivial and argumentative IMHO.

 

[pwj1286]

Well since the Gulf temperatures swing so hard, wouldn't a "stable enviroment" such as are reef tanks, be great for the rock and its inhabitants?

Taking the average between the low temp. 52 and the high temp 91 equals 71.5, which means through out the year it is fairly moderate water.

For getting so hot and so cold, there is still a lot of cool stuff there. Corals and inverts included. So much life is found in the Gulf of Mexico. I got some cool anenomes that washed up on shore in Fort Walton Beach (close to Destin) that native to the Gulf of Mexico and Nothern South America. I ID it and it is called Venezulian Sun Burst Anenome. Has anyone of you Caribean guys else heard of it?
_________________
BMW New Six

 

[Anonymous]

I want to add something to this half dead debate:

If someone is concerned about the kind of life that survives or that they want in their tank, why not buy the cheaper cultured rock and then add a percentage of the rock they want to get the life they want?


My tank is more than half rock that was originally dry and dead before I plunked it in. The other half is branch rock I bought with the original tank second hand. And to add some new life, I bought 10 pounds of decent rock. I have all kinds of beneficial life.

So who cares if the majority of your rock loses it's goodies as long as you toss in some rock that contains what you want to thrive in your tank...the best adapted species will spread throughout the tank and displace the lesser adapted species and your tank will attain balance in the end.