it's experiment time again

[CiXeL]

ive been growing frags on golf tees for a bit now and it seems to be working out nicely supergluing the frags to golf tees and placing them in holes in the live rock.

now i have some questions id like to run by you guys

are there steel or aluminum golf tees, im basically looking for a golf tee that conducts electricity so i could run wires to it and feed a little current to it so i could experiment with that recent research where they were able to get coral to grow much faster that was placed on a metal grid and had electricity running through it.

which metals would be safe in a tank and where would i get metal golf tees?

what kind of conductive wire would be safe in a tank? obviously we cant use copper.

does anyone know how much current is needed to stimulate growth?

does anyone know if it is possible to get a really long drill bit that i could use to drill a hole in liverock that is already in the tank with the tip of the drill bit being in the water and the other end out of the tank. my tank is only about 20 inches tall and removing liverock from the tank is a pain in the ass or impossible in certain areas. i'm just trying to find a place to mount more frags on the vertical walls and edges and overhangs.

i wonder if it is possible to do this and then conceal the wiring by allowing coralline to encrust it preserving the natural look and feel while taking advantage of the increased growth rate.

 

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't nails be very similar to metal golf tees? You can buy galvanized steel nails.
I did a google search and I couldn't find golf tees made of metal.

Please be careful you don't electrocute yourself, this sounds kind of dangerous!

 

[CiXeL]

what i wonder is, is it the current itself or the magnetic field that creates the effect. i was thinking of adding a small amount of power to the coral like youd get off those a/c - dc adapters basically 9-12 volts or whatever and see if theres a difference.

 

[Anonymous]

first of all, I think you shock the bejesus out of yourself. but here goes.

Titanium bike spokes would work nicely.
You could work with aluminum wire if you can find it. either that, or use silver. It's a better conductor than copper anyway.

Research "electroplating" and see what you think. You're going to be charging saltwater. the ions in the water will attract to the + or - poles respectively. Which Ions do you want going towards your coral?

I'd start with MUCH less than 9v. Try a 3vdc. Make sure you don't put the wires in the water too close together, or you'll short out the transformer.

you may blow everything up anyhow. So please use a GFCI
b

 

[Anonymous]

Platinum wire will work also, but it's expensive. I would read the original paper before trying this.

 

[Fatal Morgana]

I will read the original paper as Matt suggested.

I used platinum wire in the past. Not worth the money unless you are working on biomedical application.

Titanium bike spoke is a titanium alloy for strength. You need CP grade titanium if you care about possible toxicity in aquarium. For short term use, regular titanium is fine.

Aluminium is a debateable metal. Some say it is perfectly fine, other are not. Most are hearsays.

For this application, I don't think that extra micro-ohm of resistance will justify the use of superconducting wire, or silver or any fancy stuffs.

A few volt won't hurt you too bad. I think the threshold is 30 Volt or something... :?

I have seem drill bit that is more than 4 ft long. Check people that frames house.

In particular, look at how the coral are attached to the article. It can make a big difference in the result since you can have coral in direct contact with electricity on one, and just EMI on the other.

Oh, if you want to use DC current, you can generate good amount of O2 and H2 on the wire/electrode... 8O

 

[DaveinKY]

FWIW, I don't think that it's the volts that will hurt you. It's the amps. Kind of like sticking your tongue to a 9 volt battery. Tickles but doesn't kill you. Turn out 9 volts on a 10KVA vari-ac transformer and boom.

 

[Anonymous]

The volts WILL hurt you. It's a combo of Amps and voltage that hurt you. The simplest analogy to a wire carrying electricity is a water pipe: Water pressure = Volts (V); Total flow = Current (Amps); Restriction in the pipes = Resistance (Ohms).

High amperage with low voltage won't hurt you. It's like an enormous river of water that barely moves. However, a low amount of amperage under high voltage can hurt you. It's like a fire hose; not all that much water, but it hurts. This is why a 1.5 V battery can't hurt you at all, but a 9 V battery will give you a little jolt if you lick it. A car battery (12V???) will give you even more of a jolt. A stun gun is the opposite; it has very high voltage, but very low amount of current.

I don't really have a point here, other than be careful and ask an electrician about all this.

 

[Anonymous]

Suggestion: Welding rods are usually very carefully controlled alloys and the metal contents are usually listed in the manufacturers catalog. Look for the higher guage (Thicker) stainless steel Non-Flux-Core welding rod. Or the aluminum for that matter.

I second all the advice above about treating electricity with respect, especially since you sound like you will be using a DC wall transformer. Under shorting conditions, these things can put out a rather disconcerting amount of amperage as well as getting VERY hot VERY quickly.

I also suggest that you make the "Tee" out of wire as well. Think electric stove burner with the start of the coil coming from a 2 inch vertical length bent 90 degrees and continuing in the X/Y plane as a spiral.

The reef reclaimation experiments that I read about were low voltage if I remember correctly. 3v or something. Not sure what amperage the circuit drew.

Also, consider that when you "Force" plants using fertilizers and carefully controlled conditions, you get plants that are bigger, brighter and more beautiful, but VERY much less able to survive any conditions but optimal ones. The same may be true for "forcing" corals in this fashion.

 

[Anonymous]

interesting.

Just some comments from one who has not experimented with this concept.

I hope the charge is DC not AC. The reason you can put a finger over the live model railroad tracks and not get a shock is because it is DC. Edison invented the electric chair to show the dangers of AC.

Hopefully you can get metals that are not reactive to saltwater. But equally hopefully you have a thriving plant life growth to consume any metals that are being released. I have even heard that most macros may iron limited in mature systems or the ocean. But also that iron is very detrimental to corals. So it could be a balancing act to insure the metals are being consumed by the plant life to levels safe for corals.

Just a couple of observations. But a simple experiment may prove those concerns are unwarranted.

Bob

 

[Fatal Morgana]

Just some comments from one who has not experimented with this concept.

Your forwarning does not make you less guilty in your what I call, scientific oversights, so here I go with nickpicking again.

I hope the charge is DC not AC.

AC or DC is not a charge.

The reason you can put a finger over the live model railroad tracks and not get a shock is because it is DC.

See comment above for the voltage and amp and how it relates to "shock." You comment can be dangerous for human life, not just pets.

Edison invented the electric chair to show the dangers of AC.

Edison invented many things, but Ben Franklin maybe the first one who try to kill himself in this scientific fashion when he used kit in his days. BTW, lighting flash is DC, so maybe that's why Franklin lived many years after that.

At any rate, I would like someone to dig up the original article since I want to read it in detail. It would be interesting to know if they use DC current on the experiment. Make sure you review concept like electroplating and electrolysis before turning the power on. Hydrogen gas is not fun thing to play around with.

 

[DaveinKY]

FWIW

A quote from Gary Gambill, associate professor of medicine, Washington State University of Medicine:

"I don't think its the voltage of electricity that kills, but rather the flow of electrons/current through vulnerable tissues. Think of voltage as horsepower...as the intensity of charge moving from one location to another. I believe it is the flow of electric current (measured in amperage) through sensitive tissues which precipitates the events leading to death. This amperage may either be introduced under low power (voltage) such as the standard household outlets which operate at 110 volts or under high power (voltage) such as major power transmission lines. If a person comes into contact with low voltage current, say a faulty hair blower, and happens to have their other hand grounded either on metal or perhaps water, the current may pass through the hand which first experiences contact, up the arm, into the chest, through the heart, out of the chest, through the other arm, to grounding point. If the current flow triggers a response in the heart, this could precipitate the sudden collapse of the victim. On the other hand, if a person accidently comes in contact with high voltage current, frequently the victim does not die suddenly but will subsequently develop breakdown of muscle and other tissues due to the passage of the high voltage current through parts of the body....This message seems a little long but I think it addresses your interesting question."

Gary Gambill

 

[SnowManSnow]

hehe sounds INTERSTING...
lets see a video of you when you turn the thing on As far as metal golf tees? There prolly no such animal.. who would want to hit a $600 driver off a metal tee anyhow hehe.

good luck with this.. Id love to know how it works out

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW

A quote from Gary Gambill, associate professor of medicine, Washington State University of Medicine:

"I don't think its the voltage of electricity that kills, but rather the flow of electrons/current through vulnerable tissues. Think of voltage as horsepower...as the intensity of charge moving from one location to another. I believe it is the flow of electric current (measured in amperage) through sensitive tissues which precipitates the events leading to death. This amperage may either be introduced under low power (voltage) such as the standard household outlets which operate at 110 volts or under high power (voltage) such as major power transmission lines. If a person comes into contact with low voltage current, say a faulty hair blower, and happens to have their other hand grounded either on metal or perhaps water, the current may pass through the hand which first experiences contact, up the arm, into the chest, through the heart, out of the chest, through the other arm, to grounding point. If the current flow triggers a response in the heart, this could precipitate the sudden collapse of the victim. On the other hand, if a person accidently comes in contact with high voltage current, frequently the victim does not die suddenly but will subsequently develop breakdown of muscle and other tissues due to the passage of the high voltage current through parts of the body....This message seems a little long but I think it addresses your interesting question."

Gary Gambill

Interesting, but voltage still factors into it. You can have megawatts of juice pumping through a live wire, but if it was only 2 V, it doesn't have the 'oomph' to cross your relatively non conducting skin barrier. Your tongue is a bit more conductive because it's basically coated in saltwater; this is why you can feel a 9V battery on it. Try it with a 1.5 V and you won't feel it though.

Another analogy is like a needle; a low voltage is like a dull blade that can't pierce through your skin no matter how hard you push. High voltage is like a razor. I think what he's saying is regardless of 110 or 110,000 V, both can kill you. Once you get above a certain threshold of voltage that can pass the current through you, it doesn't matter what the voltage is.

 

[HClH2OFish]

My take is this...it's electicity and water...I'd use the smallest amount that I could and go from there! Maybe instead of an inverter, you could hookup something that would use DC batteries?
Then again, I've zero experience w/this aside from stepping over a string of barbed wire and setting foot into a shallow irrigation ditch when my granfather hit the switch and charged the system. All I remember is sitting in the truck on the drive home unable to move my arms and barely able to breathe!
Hmmm...come to think of it...that explains a LOT about me! :lol: :lol:

 

[Fatal Morgana]

As current goes thru a living thing, heat is generated (tissue->resistor), and many e-shock victims suffer from internal burn. Internal burn is very serious. Furthermore, electrocity is sufficient to shock the heart and cause it to stop.

I am going to get into too specific about this issue, since it is not directly related to the topic of this thread, but it is suffice to say that there is a voltage *and* current threshold above which precaution should be taken since it is dangerous to play around with. This is why some of us get a little bit avid on certain topics since misinformation can put life in danger.

If memory serve me well, the voltage is around 30 volt, and current is in the sub-ampere neighborhood. I am sure I can dig the exact number up...

 

[Anonymous]

actually I agree with all posts.

It is the amperage the kills.

For instance static electricity can and does have very very high voltage. Like the Van de Graaf generator. Many many thousands of volts but the charge travels along the skin instead of penetrating the body. One demonstration had a static generator which was able to spark an air gap of 2". extremely high voltage but no danger to humans.

I another demonstration a simple hand powered crank generator generated very low voltage but the AC current penatrated the body. As the five students found out by holding hands while connected to the generator.

I just hope it is a low power DC which I am sure the designers were aware of.

There is something to learn here about powering say float switches. If something leaks it would seem to be much safer to power the switch with a small limited current DC voltage the fires a relay remoted from the tank. And keep the AC to the pump at that relay and away from the tank.

I have heard of hobbiest powering the pump directly with AC through the switch. Not very safe at all.

Just my .02

Bob

Bob

 

[Fatal Morgana]

Let me say this again. AC or DC have different properties, but one is not safer than the other.

For DC, you need to make sure you don't do electrolysis. It is very dangerous if the woltage is high enough (don't remember off the top of my head, but I think it is around 2 or 5 volts for H2 and O2 from H2O), since H2 gas is exposive in a enclosed area.

 

[HClH2OFish]

If it makes lightbulbs glow, I don't touch it!!

 

[Anonymous]

Arrgh. Hitting my head against the wall here:

Ever see one of these that says Danger High Amperage? DC can and will zap the hell out of you also. Touch jumper cables if ya don't believe me.