how to be rid of ich permanently and treatment method

[firestorm]

I have a problem with marine ich in my reef tank. 10 days ago I noticed my regal tang had 3 little white spots on each side of it’s body. It went after a days. It has a voracious appetite during all this. Now it seems to have returned. I have read the ich articles by Terry Bertelme.

At the moment I don’t have a QT or hospital tank. But according to Terry, I need to quarantine all the fish, not just the regal tang, because if there are fish in the main tank, the parasite will have a host, which will perpetuate the situation. As far as I can tell the other fish are healthy, so I am loathe to move all my fish (2 percula, 1 regal tang, 1 yellow tang, hawk fish, neon goby, 2 chalk gobies, fire fish) with corals, live rock and inverts to a bare tank.

1)Will my fish be able to withstand the constant onslaught from ich, without slowly deteriorating and dying if I don’t treat them ?
2)Will the transfer to a new tank be so stressful that the fish will get sick anyway as they are used to their environment ? (I will probably transfer 30% of main tank water to QT tank and top off with RO+salt)

Any things else I should do to lessen the shock to the fish of moving from one tank to the next ?

Should I black out the QT tank initially ?

At the moment I only have the one tank, 260l with a skimmer, two eheim external filters and LR.

If I do decide to QT all the fish, I will have to buy another tank, probably 180l, skimmer, filter etc

Once the fish are in the QT tank I’ll dose it with a copper based medication. I intend keeping them in for 8 weeks, to ensure I catch at least one full lifecycle of ich in the main and QT tank.

How long should the fish be dosed for ? 5 weeks ok ?
Does the medication dissipate and loose effectiveness ?
I presume I have to top up the medication ?

How do I get rid of the copper after medication, so that I can QT inverts in the tank at a later date ?

I’m still in a dilemma to what to do next. I want to be rid of the parasite and for my fish to be happy for the least possible cost.

Please help.

 

[Mouse]

Seen as all of your fish in the display have allready been subjected to ICH then it would be safe to say that theres no need at this present time for a QT tank. Reason being, moving the fish will just stress them further, and QT tanks are only a preventative measure, you allready have an infected main tank so you wont gain anything by using QT.

BUT, defenately get one for the future!!!!

What i would do is treat the fish with garlic, its reef safe, and that way you can also dose all fish that may have it but are not currently showing symptoms. This will also mean that for the time being your staying away from copper treatments, and your QT (when set up) will be invert freindly.

I really dont see any reason why garlic wouldn't work in this situation, perhaps if you moved the fish before treatment, the added stress may mean the Garlic could be ineffective, but your fish should recover better in familiar surroundings.

hope that helps, BTW there are a few commercial Garlic based tratments out there allready, so off to the LFS with ye.

 

[Mouse]

Id dose the Garlic untill all fish are showing good health, then i would probably do a dose maybee once a week, or once every three days untill 6 months is over (i beleave that this is the time it would take for the ICH to complete a cycle) but you may want confirmation of this.

 

[Mouse]

Oh, BTW, the fish are supposed to eat the garlic, you dont dose the water with it. Mis some brine/mysids with the garlic solution and there you have it. For the bigger fish, you may consider trying to inject a piece of lancefish or shrimp with the solution, just to avoid poluting the tank.

You could also consider a U.V.?

 

[Anonymous]

One word: Hyposalinity. I had this in my main display tank, and it actually worked great for me.

~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

I have a problem with marine ich in my reef tank. 10 days ago I noticed my regal tang had 3 little white spots on each side of it’s body. It went after a days. It has a voracious appetite during all this. Now it seems to have returned. I have read the ich articles by Terry Bertelme.

Follow his advice, it is correct, and do more research (look for my link at bottom). Appearances can be, and often are, deceiving when it comes to dealing with parasites. However, ich almost never kills within a day, especially if there are very few spots. Either the fish was sicker longer than you knew, or it had something else wrong with it. For instance, velvet and Brooklynellosis do kill that quickly.

At the moment I don’t have a QT or hospital tank. But according to Terry, I need to quarantine all the fish, not just the regal tang, because if there are fish in the main tank, the parasite will have a host, which will perpetuate the situation. As far as I can tell the other fish are healthy, so I am loathe to move all my fish (2 percula, 1 regal tang, 1 yellow tang, hawk fish, neon goby, 2 chalk gobies, fire fish) with corals, live rock and inverts to a bare tank.

Not just according to Terry, according to many folks, myself included. However, you're ONLY going to move the vertebrate life, not the invertebrate life. C. irritans will attach to no host without a spine, and has been known to go without a host for up to 72 days (look for info from Steven Pro on this).

1)Will my fish be able to withstand the constant onslaught from ich, without slowly deteriorating and dying if I don’t treat them ?

They may be able to, but it's not natural. Consider this: this parasite is present in likely all wild marine environs, yet the fish don't become infected. Why? Because they're living in their perfect environment. If any fish displays disease, it's because its needs are not being met. When in doubt, DO A WATER CHANGE!

2)Will the transfer to a new tank be so stressful that the fish will get sick anyway as they are used to their environment ? (I will probably transfer 30% of main tank water to QT tank and top off with RO+salt)

Whoa, NO! Do NOT transfer ANY of the water from the display! (I can't emphasize that enough.) Get the saltwater for the QT mixed up new, put into the QT and let it age for a day or so. ALL NEW water, NO DISPLAY water. When considering the risk of allowing a problematic disease to take hold versus the risk of treatment, these risks don't balance out. It is, in my experience and opinion, far better to remove the fish where they can be effectively treated.

Any things else I should do to lessen the shock to the fish of moving from one tank to the next ?

The typical: MATCH pH (this is so important), and within a point or two on the salinity is alright, you'll be lowering it over the next few days anyway. Temperature matching is also important. Gentle handling, and they'll be fine.

Should I black out the QT tank initially ?

Nothing wrong with that, and include new pieces of PVC pipe, elbows and connector pieces big enough for the fish to get in. This helps them mentally.

At the moment I only have the one tank, 260l with a skimmer, two eheim external filters and LR. If I do decide to QT all the fish, I will have to buy another tank, probably 180l, skimmer, filter etc.

No, no you won't. Now, for the kicker - your QT does NOT have to be an aquarium, it can be any watertight, strong container. Trash cans (plastic, not metal) are fantastic in a pinch. Two or three large bins, lined with black plastic trash bags are good enough for mixing seawater, and they're good enough for QT.
(Caveat: the bags provide 'hidey-holes' for C. irritans, we like smooth, non-porous containers and 'decorations'.)

Filtration is easily provided with an air (or powerhead) driven sponge filter, or a canister or even HOT power filter. You will want to siphon off the bottom of the containers daily, I like to use air tubing because it provides great control without taking a lot of water. Why do you want to do this? To remove cysts dropped from the fishes.

Once the fish are in the QT tank I’ll dose it with a copper based medication. I intend keeping them in for 8 weeks, to ensure I catch at least one full lifecycle of ich in the main and QT tank.

Why going for that before trying something that's easier on both you AND the fish? That hyposalinity wings mentioned is perfect in the QT for you, especially since you plan on using it for inverts as well. Nothing more than a refractometer (or my preferred tool, a lab grade hydrometer) is needed. Just like with discipline, go with the least harsh method first, then, if necessary, step things up a bit. Hypo works for the most part, but it MUST be done in the QT because of your inverts - go messing about with the salinity in the display and it'll be soup before you know it.
Oops.. hyposalinity is effective at 1.007-1.010, but sometimes you may need to go lower.

How long should the fish be dosed for ? 5 weeks ok ?

Manufacturer's directions, mate. I like SeaChem's copper, but I think you should wait. Also know that formalin is another good method of treating ich. I believe Greg Scheimer (of Waikiki Aquarium, I think) uses it with good results.

Does the medication dissipate and loose effectiveness ?

Sort of, though I wouldn't quite put it that way. Again, you need to follow directions for the particular 'make' of copper.

I presume I have to top up the medication ?

Yes, but don't dose on top of dose, you will need to do water changes with this medication (with LOTS of medications, actually) to handle ammonia, etc. Because of these very necessary water changes you'll need to add medication to get back to the correct levels. I usually remove a known amount of water and dose the replacement water so all is fresh.

How do I get rid of the copper after medication, so that I can QT inverts in the tank at a later date ?

Generally considered too risky, however, good methods include MUCH carbon, I'm talking bumloads, and one of my favorite inventions, the PolyFilter.

I’m still in a dilemma to what to do next. I want to be rid of the parasite and for my fish to be happy for the least possible cost.

Then hypo in the QT and slightly higher temperature in the display are the answer. I don't know how warm you're running it, but raising it to the 80F-82F (26C-27C) range will speed up the parasite's lifecycle.

Please help.

I think I have, especially if you also go to http://www.wetwebmedia.com to start - search on parasitic diseases, marine parasites, and ich.

If you can find it, Bio-Spira will help immediately establish nitrifying bacteria so you won't be doing so many LARGE water changes, otherwise that's the way to go during this time. The good thing is that while using hyposalinity, you'll be using less salt mix.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd like to add that QT is just a term, and technically, yes, quarantine is preventative only. However, these systems are also used as hospital systems.

Efficacy of garlic is proved to be antibiotic in nature only, it ought to help prevent common secondary infections, but hasn't been proven to do anything else (like make the fishes' body slime 'taste bad') at this time.

 

[Anonymous]

Firestorm, you've been given some great advice. I can't add anything, but read this 5 part article if you haven't already...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini3.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini4.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /mini5.htm

 

[Joew]

I had a bad crypto outbreak....

I ended up doing a forma. dip and copper treatment, fish were in copper treatment for 3-4 weeks. Definitely 3 weeks minimum. 4 is better. I lost one fish. My kole tang, who brough tit in in the first place, he was being harassed by my tomato clown and i think that set it off due to the stress.
The dip is kinda scary though.

JoeW
_________________
BMW R 90 S

 

[firestorm]

Thanks for all your replies !

Current status : Ich seems to be gone again. May be my fishes' immune system is strong enough to fight them off ??

Next steps : carry on keeping the water in good condtion, feed the fishes with different foods laced with garlic, vacuum the substrate regularly.

Seamaiden
My plan was to use half the ceramic filter media and a proportion of the display tank water to seed the filter/water in the QT/hospital tank. I know this will transfer the parasites, but should be dealt with the copper treatment. My reasoning is that it should lessen the differences in water chemistry and means that the filter hits the ground running, strange metaphor, but I'm sure you know what I mean. This would hopefully avoid creating an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spike. I'm not too sure about your suggestion of using just a powerhead sponge filter, didn't think it was sufficient to deal with the waste from 9 fishes.

I like your idea of not having to replicate the display tank albeit slightly scaled down. I was told some plastics leak chemicals into salt water, so I'm wary of using non food grade plastics. Am I being over-careful ?

Good idea about vacuuming the bottom of the tank to remove cysts. I've ordered a refractometer from NIS on ebay, I'll see whats it like and report back.

Overall, I've reassessed the situation. The water is getting better everyday, last night ammonia didn't register on my test kit, lowest reading is 0.1ppm. I've been feeding the fishes with food soaked in garlic juice from fresh garlic. Kent's Garlic Xtreme is so expensive here, 24 of your usd.

Mouse
I've got a 25W Vecton with a new tube, plumbed inline wih an eheim pro II.

Wings
have you got any inverts in your display tank ? I seem to have read that hyposalinity isn't so good for inverts ?

Jimm
they're the Terry Bertelme articles on ich. a good read.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all your replies !

Current status : Ich seems to be gone again. May be my fishes' immune system is strong enough to fight them off ??

No, please do some more reading on the lifecycle of Cryptocaryon irritans, this is all part of the normal cycle. It will come back again, but likely worse.

Next steps : carry on keeping the water in good condtion, feed the fishes with different foods laced with garlic, vacuum the substrate regularly.

In the display the vaccuming will be relatively ineffective.

Seamaiden
My plan was to use half the ceramic filter media and a proportion of the display tank water to seed the filter/water in the QT/hospital tank. I know this will transfer the parasites, but should be dealt with the copper treatment.

Indeed, as will those bacteria. Count on them being killed off, mate.

My reasoning is that it should lessen the differences in water chemistry and means that the filter hits the ground running, strange metaphor, but I'm sure you know what I mean. This would hopefully avoid creating an ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spike. I'm not too sure about your suggestion of using just a powerhead sponge filter, didn't think it was sufficient to deal with the waste from 9 fishes.

As long as there's sufficient surface area available (you can certainly use as many sponge filters as needed) it's not a problem. What is is the idea that you can achieve biological filtration in the presence of what is also an effective insectide. Know that you cannot do this if using copper or formalin, and MUST keep toxic nitrogenous wastes under control by performing daily water changes on a large scale.

I like your idea of not having to replicate the display tank albeit slightly scaled down. I was told some plastics leak chemicals into salt water, so I'm wary of using non food grade plastics. Am I being over-careful ?

Yes. Get large trash bins and line them with plain black plastic trash bags (you want NOTHING impregnated in them to control smell/mildew/et al) and you'll be golden in that regard. You can also use the plastic storage boxes sold here at stores like Target, Walmart, KMart, et al. Anthony Calfo also recommends this type of system for quick QT on the cheap (please do check the www link under my sig and search wetwebmedia for more info on ich treatment).

Good idea about vacuuming the bottom of the tank to remove cysts. I've ordered a refractometer from NIS on ebay, I'll see whats it like and report back.

This is effective only in the bare-bottom QT/hospital system. In a system with substrate you cannot hope to remove the majority of cysts. I hope the refractometer is of good quality, assuming it is you should be very happy with it!

Overall, I've reassessed the situation. The water is getting better everyday, last night ammonia didn't register on my test kit, lowest reading is 0.1ppm. I've been feeding the fishes with food soaked in garlic juice from fresh garlic. Kent's Garlic Xtreme is so expensive here, 24 of your usd.

Outrageous! I'd think that mashed garlic would be more effective (and fresher, too). If it all fails, then your fish have been pre-seasoned with garlic and the tang especially should be right tasty.

Mouse
I've got a 25W Vecton with a new tube, plumbed inline wih an eheim pro II.

Wings
have you got any inverts in your display tank ? I seem to have read that hyposalinity isn't so good for inverts ?

I believe wings has a fish only system in which this was used, or it wouldn't have worked so well. Please know that large salinity changes are deadly for most invertebrates (too many exceptions for me to properly qualify statement, so keeping it general here).

Jimm
they're the Terry Bertelme articles on ich. a good read.

Please don't limit yourself to just Terry's articles, my friend. Steven Pro and many others have written some very good pieces on control of this ubiquitous parasite.

BEST OF LUCK!

 

[Terry B]

You are getting good advice. Please just spell my name Bartelme, O.K?
LOL 8)

Cheers,
Terry B

 

[Mouse]

Mouse
I've got a 25W Vecton with a new tube, plumbed inline wih an eheim pro II.

What media you got in the Ehiem, If youve got Live Rock in the tank you may want to take out all the biological media, and use it for Phosphate removing compunds and filter floss only. When used in conjucntion with Live Rock the Biological media in most canister filers becomes a Nitrate factory. I was doing the very same thing when i started, and the tank looked a million times better after i took the media out.

 

[firestorm]

Terry - apologies for getting your name wrong

Mouse - I've got 30Kg of nicely matured LR. I am using two Eheims, a 2229 wet and dry and a professional II. Both with substrat, a ceramic type baterial friendly media. I also have a phosphate remover in the pro II.

Ammonia is between 0 - 0.05 ppm
NO2 0.1 ppm
NO3 4 ppm

Are you saying I should consider removing the media from the pro II or the wet and dry ? I guess the pro II. The nitrates should go down ?

 

[firestorm]

I am sure you veterans could see this one coming, but yes its back, noticed this morning 3 white spots on each side of my regal tang. Whats worse is that the neon goby has very thin filamental growths in it's side. It still eats, but is swimming awkwardly. It also rests on the rocks more. The other fish seem quite nervous and very, very hungry. Its seems like I haven't fed them for days. Both of my chalk gobies are getting thinner, I have been targetting my feeding at them, in a bid to get them to gain weight, but it doesn't seem to be working.

Now I'm not sure exactly what is wrong. The white spot bit I can take a guess. But what of the filaments ? Velvet perhaps ?

I can see this taking a lot of time to solve - I hope I can minimise the fatalities

 

[Anonymous]

You're not feeding the fish, mate? I think I misunderstand you, it doesn't fit with what was posted before. Besides, this wouldn't accomplish much of anything. If they're rejecting the food that's got the garlic in it, then definitely stop using it. (This is assuming that the lack of appetite began at this time.) Have you got 'em in a hospital yet?

If at ALL possible, please take piccies of the filamental growths.

At this point I'm going to advise getting some antibiotic to have on hand, my personal favorite is Spectrogram, though are other good broad spectrums out there, too. (I like it cuz I've seen it used on inverts with very good results.) You may also want to have an antifungal med, even just some methylene blue on hand. This may be those secondary infections I think I mentioned.

 

[firestorm]

2-3 times a day - pics to follow (when I find the cf reader...)
All the tank's inhabitants get to eat. They don't seem to mind the garlic at all. I am using the garlic juice, 99.99% of the garlic I collect and cook with ;-)

 

[firestorm]

photo of neon goby with filamental growth.

fungal
parasitic
viral
or bacterial ?

 

[firestorm]

You're not feeding the fish, mate? I think I misunderstand you, it doesn't fit with what was posted before. Besides, this wouldn't accomplish much of anything. If they're rejecting the food that's got the garlic in it, then definitely stop using it. (This is assuming that the lack of appetite began at this time.) Have you got 'em in a hospital yet?

All the fish are feeding fine

If at ALL possible, please take piccies of the filamental growths.

At this point I'm going to advise getting some antibiotic to have on hand, my personal favorite is Spectrogram, though are other good broad spectrums out there, too. (I like it cuz I've seen it used on inverts with very good results.) You may also want to have an antifungal med, even just some methylene blue on hand. This may be those secondary infections I think I mentioned.

Obtaining antibiotics isn't that easy in the UK, I'll have to find a friendly vet thats understands fish.

I think its fungal. I wonder if its the ich thats lowered the fish's immunity ?

I'm about to do another water test. Next I'll order a RO unit.

No I haven't set up a QT / hospital tank yet. I need to get all the bits together. I didn't realise the cu medications kill off the nice bacteria in the filter media. Seems like a basic sponge filter/ floss will be ideal for the task, allied with daily water changes. Buying the water from the lfs is definitely too expensive, 75p a gallon, that works out to just over 1.06 USD a US gallon.

The chances are I'm going to procure a basic/cheap tank, about 80 litres, as it'll make monitoring the fish a lot easier, viewing the fish top down makes it more difficult to spot the progress of the fish I feel.

Any one used the tea tree tonic ? Saw it this afternoon, can't remember what its called but 500ml cost 75 gbp 8O

 

[firestorm]

remembered whats it called - API Melafix