Getting Copper out of a tank?

[Reef Guy11]

Hello everyone,

I have a Client that has a Saltwater FO tank. They were wanting a reef, but they had put Copper in there at one time. Well if I were to drain the tank hold the fish in one of my holding tanks, Then soak the inside of the tank with hot water and Distilled vingar over night then then wash it out with hot water would that get rid of the Copper, So they can have a reef tank.

TIA.

Darrell

P.S. My new Service and Maintance Business is Called Aquatic Dreams By Darrell Ortiz. Out in So Cal Palm Spring Area.

 

[DaisyPolyp]

Are you talking about tossing everything except the actual tank? or are you also looking to clean the substrate, pumps, etc?

If its just the tank, a thorough cleaning with purified water and vinegar should be fine. If you want to be absolutely sure that the coppper is gone, then you need to use a chelating agent like Ethylenediaminetetraacetic Acid (EDTA). This can be found in a salt form and will bind to the copper ions present in your system (it will also bond to magnesium and calcium ions, so it is best to supplement trace elemtents and calcium after its use). A single EDTA molecule can bond to 6 copper ions, so you want to use at least a 6 to 1 dose for the amount of copper used in the tank.

 

[Reef Guy11]

I would like to use the Filter and the Power head to I am doing new Sand in the tank. the tank has been setup with aquarium gravel and a undergavel filter and a Fluvol 404 Filter. I am tossing the undergravel fitler and keeping the powerhead from it and the Fluvol 404. I am redoing the whole tank basicly.

 

[DaisyPolyp]

IMO, the substrate would be the biggest potential leech point of copper. If you're going to dump it then you're going to be fine. the powerhead and fluval can be cleaned normally, no worries.

 

[Anonymous]

I've heard that even the silicone will leach copper back into the tank.

 

[Mouse]

yea, me too. Id say that your in new tank terratory. why bother risking it.

 

[sjfishguy]

I would just run a polyfilter. I have turned FO with high copper concentrations over to reefs with no problem. I think this concept of things absorbing copper and then leaching it back out it a little blown out of proportion.

 

[Steven]

I had the same experience as sjfishguy. Treated Ich with copper right in the main tank, after removing all inverts, and used polyfilters to remove the copper afterwards. Just keep replacing the polyfilters until they stop turning blue. Also did several water changes. That was several years ago (I now know the benefits of quarantine!) and I havevn't had any problems keeping inverts since.

 

[DaisyPolyp]

Yes, some of the myths have been blown out of proportion, certainly silicone sealant will not absorb coppper and then leach it out later, but a sand bed or LR can slowly release built up copper for years.

 

[reefann]

Yes, some of the myths have been blown out of proportion, certainly silicone sealant will not absorb coppper and then leach it out later, but a sand bed or LR can slowly release built up copper for years.

I am going to have to disagree. I have read over at Tonmo.com that a research project had tanks that had copper used in them years ago. And even after cleaning and years they leached enough copper to kill any octos put in the tank. Granted octos are EXTREAMLY intolerant of copper. It is my personal belief that if copper is ever exposed to the silicon, it will always be there. Stong enough to kill reef inverts maybe not. But why take the risk. The tank is a very minimal cost of an complete reef anyway.
_________________
Mercedes W125

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, some of the myths have been blown out of proportion, certainly silicone sealant will not absorb coppper and then leach it out later, but a sand bed or LR can slowly release built up copper for years.

I also disagree. The glass and silicon will both absorb copper. The pumps as well.

There are lab proceedures for cleaning copper from tanks. Its an acid bath. So what are the myths you are speaking of?

 

[Anonymous]

:lol:


i've seen dozens and dozens of coppered tanks converted to reef tanks w/no problems at all

the amount of copper that MAY get 'absorbed' onto the glass/silicone is easily dealt with

i for one, have yet to see any type of test that proves copper gets absorbed into silicone, or glass, and that it gets released again, or in which amounts :roll:

let's assume for a minute that some copper can get 'absorbed' into glass/silicone - substances known for their LACK of reactivity w/chemicals/other materials


how much, in actual amount, copper do you think is in the glass/silicone ?

it has to be a fraction of what was entered into the system originally, and a pretty small fraction, at that


until someone publishes a test, i'd be leery of repeating old wives tales

as long as you start w/fresh substrate/rocks, and rinse the tank well w/fresh water and a mild acid, like vinegar, i seriously doubt you'll have any problems, just like the dozens of customer's who've done the same at my recommendation

for a final test, you can run a poly filter for a few days, and check to see if it changes color (i've never seen that happen, after rinsing out a previously coppered tank)



fwiw copper is abit misunderstood in this hobby, imo - not every miniscule amount is instantly disastrous :wink:

some inverts can actually tolerate a fairly high amount of copper
(large hermit crabs come to mind)

many inverts use copper as an integral blood component (i think they use copper instead of iron as the base for their hemoglobin (?) ).iirc, that's why they're more sensitive to Cu, it gives them blood poisoning, iirc




i think the whole 'copper myth' was started probably at the lfs level, to try and sell more tanks to overly anal reefers, instead of having them re-use the tank they already have




i would like to challenge every poster here in this thread who stated that copper IS absorbed into glass, silicone, pumps, etc., to back up their claim w/actual proof, or a published test and not w/hearsay, if possible :wink:

 

[DaisyPolyp]

There are lab procedures for cleaning copper from tanks. It’s an acid bath. So what are the myths you are speaking of?

Earlier in the thread I referred to the proper way to decontaminate the tank with a chelating agent. Acid baths will of course work, but acid is by no means the only way to get rid of the copper. Also, the popular use of Hydrochloric Acid for use with copper is only used for copper oxides Cu-O and Cu2-O as it will not break down Cu. Physicians commonly prescribe chelating agents to humans with an excess of copper in their bloodstream, and EDTA in particular is extensively used in food processing and packaging so it is safe to use in this capacity.

The myths I am speaking of is the notion that silicone sealant and glass will continuously leech copper back into a tank after it has been removed.

I am going to have to disagree. I have read over at Tonmo.com that a research project had tanks that had copper used in them years ago. And even after cleaning and years they leached enough copper to kill any octos put in the tank. Granted octos are EXTREAMLY intolerant of copper. It is my personal belief that if copper is ever exposed to the silicon, it will always be there. Stong enough to kill reef inverts maybe not.

Although I'm not familiar with the particular study you are referring to, there have been numerous studies done as to the absorption rate of foreign compounds into glass in particular as it is extensively used in lab environments. The silicone probably does absorb more than glass, but it is specifically formulated to be a non-permeable barrier, and the amounts of absorption are miniscule at best.

The most important facet of the argument is that copper is an extremely weak metallic element and will oxidize very rapidly given the chance. I think we can all agree that a saltwater environment is an ideal medium for copper to oxidize. If you have any doubts, ask any enlisted seaman how fast copper corrodes on a ship at sea.

Now, all that being said, there is in fact a VERY real danger of copper leaching back from substrate, LR, pumps, etc. and with the amount of money we invest in our reef tanks, it is very prudent to replace as much as possible "just to be sure". But to advocate the replacement of an entire tank when it is not necessary (especially when this gentleman is doing it as a service) IMHO is irresponsible.

 

[nice1bruva]

just one question...?
compare the price of replacing the tank....filter and powerhead to the stock that will eventually reside in there.
ie. live rock and corals etc...
is it really worth the constant threat looming in the backround.
i for one, think it's not worth the risk!
just my opinion of course!!

 

[Anonymous]

FWIW, I agree with DaisyPolyp on the issue woth copper on glass and silicon. The other observations that seem to contradict this does not directly disprove it.

 

[Anonymous]

You are welcome to your "opinions", but others with more direct experience don't agree.


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... er+in+tank

 

[DaisyPolyp]

I hate links to RC... you have to registered to see them :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

I hate links to RC... you have to registered to see them :roll:

I am sorry my attempt didn't meet your high standards. Perhaps you should just believe what you want.

 

[DaisyPolyp]

easy partner... no disrespect to you, I'm just a bit partial to RDO :wink:

 

[Reef Guy11]

Hey thanks everyone for the info. I will probably do it, if my Cleint said to go ahead and do it.

Thank Darrell