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clarionreef

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Below is a letter from the AMDA BOD to the general membership and the public at large.


Dear AMDA members,

During the past year your AMDA board of directors has worked to resolve two important issues facing our business. The first relates to the impact of marine ornamental fishing on the environment. The second centers on E-Commerce’s growth and its subsequent detriment to brick-and-mortar retailers – the predominant group within our association.

During the first part of 2003, your AMDA board worked to investigate the problems related to the acquisition of healthy animals for our retail trade. One of the charter responsibilities of the AMDA organization is to seek ways to protect the environment and create a sustainable fishery for the animals we sell in our shops. There are many facets to this mandate that involve wild caught and lab or farm raised animals for the trade. For now, we turn our attention to the wild caught part of our trade.

Since we are users of a resource and the resource found in the tropical areas of the world (of which the United States is not a part), we lack the necessary political leverage to effectively promote environmental protection. What we can do, however, is promote the purchase of fish from organizations or villages devoted to good fish husbandry after capture and appropriate catching techniques.

Your board believes that we have an innate responsibility to do what we can to establish networking relationships with the fishermen and shippers in these countries, and help wherever we can to engender good collection practices for ornamental marine animals no matter where it is. We have hoped that distributors in this country would do more to stem the continued use of cyanide and poor handling and shipping, but that does not seem to be happening to any great extent.

In order to get a better understanding of the current situation, we sent our president Steve Robinson to the Philippines to investigate possible solutions to the gross destruction of the environment food fish trade and to a lesser extent the impact of the ornamental fish trade. For years, various well-meaning organizations have tried to correct this using all sorts of grants and words to no avail. Your board has come to the conclusion that on site training, making proper equipment available directly to the fishermen, and frequent site inspection is the only way to assure that our desires as customers are being met.

As a group, AMDA needs to be committed to the concept that we should not support those that do not protect their resource. And as customers, we need to impose our will and believe that our will is beneficial to the environment and the establishment of good husbandry practices at the catch sites.

Since Steve has had extensive experience in field collecting, and understands the issues involved in the endeavor, we thought a tour of an area in the Philippines would help us understand the breadth of the existing problem.

As part of the trip, AMDA bought and delivered a small amount of hand netting to the fishermen of the Philippines. They were thankful for the gesture and it illuminated the need for someone to help organize a disparate industry that needs to do its part in preventing damage to the coral reefs of the Philippines. We found that appropriate equipment was not made available to the fishermen, but there was no shortage of cyanide for them to buy.

The process of collecting, holding, transporting to shipping hubs, and the subsequent delivery to the United States is arduous for fish and fisherman alike. Steve's trip certainly expanded our knowledge of the complexity of the issues at hand and in the future we will try to educate our members as well.

The concept of net-caught vs. cyanide or chemical caught fish has been a topic of discussion amongst hobbyists and professional aquarium people for many years. For some unknown reason the food industry in the Philippines and Indonesia has not questioned this reprehensible fishing practice. The AMDA board believes that the only way we will ever achieve cooperation in regards to cyanide use is to have established delegates that answer to our needs within the laws of the land in the areas where our fish are caught, held, and delivered. The issues are not just in the procurement of fish. Handling and shipping procedures also need supervision, and it appears that this area of the chain of custody is actually equally as problematic as cyanide fishing.

As a follow-up mission, two AMDA board members have been involved in establishing a village in Bali to produce only net caught fish (Burton Patrick of Pet Supplies "Plus" in Pittsburgh and Steve Robinson of Cortez Marine). This village, through their own determination and Steve's training in the village, completely switched to net caught fish. Unfortunately the saga does not end there. Training the village to hold and ship the fish successfully to the States will be the next project and the final step toward more successful marine fish keeping at the retail level.

The second area of concern for your AMDA board is to define retail concerns at home. Brick-and-mortar retailers are stuck in the trenches - face to face with their customers every day and serving as the cornerstone of the education in the hobby; it is upon the backs of these retailers that the business is built. It isn't the mass merchants that cherry pick a few fast turning items like marine salt or E-Commerce that supplies the expensive and easy to ship hard goods, leaving local retailers to bear the burden of hard-to-ship and low-margin items left by the cherry-pickers.

We have not talked to a retailer that isn't tired of finding remedies for the mass merchant and E-tailers - and still not get the sales to warrant the effort. These mass merchants merely start their customers, who inevitably fail and become disillusioned with the hobby because they were originally given faulty or non-existent advice. E-Commerce and mass merchants (Petco and PetsMart are a part of the mix) know very little about the animals they sell. Just because a body in a far away place can write an animal care article for a corporate website, doesn't mean anybody in the stores servicing those customers knows anything about it.

It is also our belief that the bulk of AMDA members are bricks and mortar retailers and that e-commerce and mass merchants are taking advantage of their efforts without paying their dues. Bricks and mortar retailers pay high rents, high local taxes, have high payrolls and payroll taxes to service customers and keep their stores looking presentable for the public. All of these things have to be paid through sales of pet supplies. Taking away the ability to compete in selling pet supplies under the guise of free enterprise is to ignore that your neighborhood store is taxed to death while e-commerce is given benefits they have not earned.

In contrast to the local retailer, the e-commerce company doesn't have to worry about algae or a little slop on the floor. They don't get sued by every Tom, Dick, and Harry that walks in the door, up a curb or over a speed bump. They also don't have to worry about spending $2500 a winter salting parking lots or removing snow.

We sell hard-to-move aquariums at very low margins. We have to provide the help to get these bulky items into their cars or even deliver them - oftentimes for very little or no compensation. We provide the salt, the frozen food, and the live food; none of which are profitable enough to pay labor, rents, and taxes. We provide these services as part of the whole business, but people who don’t provide these services are whittling away our profitability. Obviously some things will have to change.

City and commuter taxes penalize employees who work in the city. Sales tax is mandated by states to be collected by local retail, yet interstate E-Commerce oftentimes boasts of the government’s inability to tax them. Local business has audits for use tax. Local businesses pay permit fees to have scales, pricing scanners, and point of sale systems. Local business pays township taxes based on gross sales. E-Commerce may eventually be forced to adopt these burdens as well, but they won’t have to take possession of their “inventory.” Many times the products are drop shipped from distributors and manufacturers without the company ever taking possession or paying the taxes on the gross sale.

We sign leases for 5 and 10 years on real estate that a government can close for road construction for months without compensation. We are part of the community that expects us to be a part of that community. We are visible center of commerce and we must keep our facilities scrupulously clean at all times. We are always in the public's eye and responsible to our customers on a moments notice. And most importantly, we create the business upon which the e-commerce businesses are built.

While we hoe the fields, our E-Commerce comrades sit lazily in the woods enjoying the good life and laughing at us for doing all the work while they enjoy the benefits of our labors… without working too hard at it.

For the above reasons we believe that companies that are major players in E-Commerce should not be a part of AMDA. This includes livestock, hard-goods distributors, and manufacturers. Livestock companies in particular cannot be fully functional without the local retailer acting as support. They may sell some things cheaper, but this would become a very expensive hobby, and it would shrink considerably, if everything were to be purchased via the Internet.

The states then would want to collect use tax, freight companies would be doing well, and E-Commerce would be spread throughout the areas without anybody to initiate an interest in the hobby.

Additionally we believe that distributors to AMDA members should not sell to people that do not have a wholesale license for the retail pet trade. Producers of livestock have the same responsibility to the organization as the livestock distributor. They cannot sell direct to the public.

In return, the AMDA member should at all times support those distributors that support the retail trade. We are not intending to influence competition, but to support those that create the hobby for the benefit of all. Since we are primarily a retail group, we believe our focus needs to be on retail and not supporting those companies that play both ends of this.

We would certainly like to hear any comments you have regarding these issues. If you would take a moment to write to the board regarding your feelings in these areas it would help us to represent the overall position of your organization.

Burton Patrick
AMDA BOD, Director at Large
 

teevee

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Well written, but a. why should we NOT try to eliminate the middleman (not that we really are, the "wholesalers" are just collecting an even higher premium), and b. how does he thinks he's going to stop the evolution of commerce. But yeah, drop-shipping livestock does suck.

As for the collection method issue, this is the problem with everything the Western world buys from third-world nations. How can we expect the situation to improve if all we do is preach. You want a solution? Start paying the collectors what they deserve for their work, so they can start to improve their quality of life, rather than just the health of our fish.

Typical viral capitalism garbage. :roll:
 

dizzy

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Money Pit":1vp37kgc said:
:cry:
Let me wipe the tears from my eyes. I'm sincerely embarrassed for the author of this letter.
Money Pit,
I'm very grateful to Burton for taking the time from his busy schedule to serve on the BOD of an organization that is dedicated to the betterment of the marine industry. I think you should be embarassed by your own post.
Mitch
 
A

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Well said Mitch,

I guess the folks who don't understand what the AMDA is about, only want CHEAP fish and inverts. To hell with mom and pop stores, let Petco and the good DR's put them out of business. Then when the EL CHEAPO's need help, guess what, they're SOOL :evil:

teevee,
Wouldn't you like a LFS that could sell to you for the same price as Petco, Dr's Smith and Foster or Big AL's?

What Burton was saying is that he would like to see AMDA members buy only from wholesalers who do not supply etail, drop shippers, hobbiests and only sell to retail stores. This WOULD equal the playing ground for the local stores in your area, where you go to get advise, but don't buy because it's cheaper online. :roll:

How many threads read "Where to find ??? cheap:?:"
There are 2615 threads with the word "CHEAP" somewhere in it not counting this one.
 
A

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knowse":1qqltdi0 said:
Well said Mitch,

I guess the folks who don't understand what the AMDA is about, only want CHEAP fish and inverts. To hell with mom and pop stores, let Petco and the good DR's put them out of business. Then when the EL CHEAPO's need help, guess what, they're SOOL :evil:

teevee,
Wouldn't you like a LFS that could sell to you for the same price as Petco, Dr's Smith and Foster or Big AL's?

What Burton was saying is that he would like to see AMDA members buy only from wholesalers who do not supply etail, drop shippers, hobbiests and only sell to retail stores. This WOULD equal the playing ground for the local stores in your area, where you go to get advise, but don't buy because it's cheaper online. :roll:

How many threads read "Where to find ??? cheap:?:"
There are 2615 threads with the word "CHEAP" somewhere in it not counting this one.


how many of those do you think there are? and how do you verify ?
 

Money Pit

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Burton is whining about having to shovel snow, and pay taxes, and work hard. WEEP WEEP, it is so sad to have to compete in a free market. All of us have to compete in this market to sell our products or service, it's a fact of life.

We are not intending to influence competition, but to support those that create the hobby for the benefit of all.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the competition that E-Commerce creates benefits everyone not just those with deep pocket. How much would Burton charge for that aquarium if he didn't have any competition. I remember before E-Commerce, retailers were bitching about the bigger retailers (Petco, PetSmart).
 

clarionreef

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Burtons point is;
Competition vs. parasitism.
Without the mass base of commerce created by retailers ie. [the host]...e-tailers die.
Without the e-tailers ie. [the parasite]....nothing happens...and accountability in face to face dealings with customers prevails.
Since killing the host kills the parasite a parasites greatest enemy is another parasite...and another. The competition to watch now is how low the parasites will go to undercut each other...oblivious and of course uncaring to the damage this internal eye for an eye strife will cause the trade in general.
Reform of the trade?? If this nonsense keeps growing there will be none.
Shutdown of the trade as environmental issues sharpen? E-tailers are not conversant in such issues.
For them with less invested, its easy come easy go.
All one has to do to read the future is see the death of so much of the reptile trade in its 'direct' approach.
Click on kingsnake.com and look at the what the next few years have in store for the fish and reef trade.
Steve
PS. I'm not a retailer but if I was...and customers kept coming in bragging about saving a buck here and more there online as they asked for free advice, disease control information and took up my time all day...
Well...I think I'd want to kick em out. Innocent hobbyists....be advised; There are plenty of bozos out there that do exactly that every day.
 
A

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knowse":3nwegpxc said:
Well said Mitch,

I guess the folks who don't understand what the AMDA is about, only want CHEAP fish and inverts. To hell with mom and pop stores, let Petco and the good DR's put them out of business. Then when the EL CHEAPO's need help, guess what, they're SOOL :evil:

teevee,
Wouldn't you like a LFS that could sell to you for the same price as Petco, Dr's Smith and Foster or Big AL's?

What Burton was saying is that he would like to see AMDA members buy only from wholesalers who do not supply etail, drop shippers, hobbiests and only sell to retail stores. This WOULD equal the playing ground for the local stores in your area, where you go to get advise, but don't buy because it's cheaper online. :roll:

How many threads read "Where to find ??? cheap:?:"
There are 2615 threads with the word "CHEAP" somewhere in it not counting this one.


you can always choose to not give out advice, if you feel you should be compensated for it no matter what

i never put a charge on advice, nowadays i give it out freely w/out being in retail, and you know what the biggest piece of advice i give is? "do not listen to the lfs, because chances are they're a buncha idjits who are clueless!!!"

i also would stop helping the dorks who would always pop in to pick me brain, after seeing that's all they would pick ;), and you know what? all that did was move 'em along to go pick another lfs's 'brain', w/out patronizing them, either.

the contention that an lfs is 'morally superior' to an online 'etailer', at least from a knowledge/help perpsective, is totally bogus, imo-there are just as many crappy worthless lfs's as there are etailers, and there are some very good ethical etailers

it's not whether you're a b&m, or an etailer, that determines how good or moral you are,- it's your business/livestock ethic that does. :wink:

it's ultimately the consumer's decisions that will determine who gets a bigger piece of the pie, not the business tactics either 'side' chooses to take to get the larger piece

if a consumer doesn't care enough to be able to look at an animal before buying it, and is only concerned about PURCHASE PRICE, they will buy off the internet.period.


imo- the amda should actually put more pressure on itself to get out of the stone age :P :wink: , and try to get itself a bigger internet presence-why not try and beat f&s at their own game, with a better product?

i just think the whole premise is really non workable from so many standpoints:

i can register as a business, get a wholesalers license, have a storefront, in one week, and STILL do etailing etc.

where would amda draw the distinguishing lines?

are there enough wholesalers that exclusively deal with b&m lfs's, to supply the 50 stores?

are 50 stores' buying leverage really enough to influence the market, and it's practices of doing business?

(hint: if all 50 stores crapped out tomorrow, life would still go on fine in the MO biz)

i think the amda should focus more on beating the competition at it's own game
 

clarionreef

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At their own game?
You mean low-ball net caught fish? [ while equiping collectors, training them and paying them fairly] Or just "sell out" like everybody else and enjoy the descent of the hobby into madness?
Of course not.

Steve :?:
 
A

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cortez marine":3mw8idit said:
At their own game?
You mean low-ball net caught fish? [ while equiping collectors, training them and paying them fairly] Or just "sell out" like everybody else and enjoy the descent of the hobby into madness?
Of course not.

Steve :?:

i find the way you interpreted my use of 'beating them at their own game'to be interesting, in spite of having nothing to do with my meaning.

are those the only two options open before you?
 

Money Pit

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Shutdown of the trade as environmental issues sharpen? E-tailers are not conversant in such issues.
For them with less invested, its easy come easy go.

I think it's silly to suggest that e-tailers have little invested in the trade or environmental issues. All one has to do is look at http://www.liveaquaria.com to see a company that has millions invested. They constantly feature articles on their home page about the effects of the hobby on the environment and what they are doing to advance the hobby in a way that has less impact on our oceans and reefs.

I think it's important to remember that E-tailers buy their fish from the same wholesalers that most lfs's do so I don't understand why the environmental agrument only applies to the e-tailer.
 

clarionreef

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Money,
I relize you don't understand.
A good webpage is all it takes to convince you?
You like having smoke blown up .... ...?
AND what do you think the advertising would say?
We buy and dropship lots of cyanide fish to keep our prices low enough to interest you. We endeavor to minimize the collector as much as possible and keep him at arms length. His poverty is our windfall!
We will scrape and scour the oceans to get it cheap enough and varied enough to get your business...no matter what crimes the industry commits...we are just fine with it and go along so as to not rock the boat.
We are whatever the trade has become and just package it different to 'shake your head and take your bread.'
or...?


Steve
 

Juck

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Regardless of the ethics of dropshipping and cyanide fishing and how terribly unfair life is for bricks & mortar retailers in general,,,,I agree with Money Pit on the tone of the letter.

I own a small business and I sympathize with the author's position, but it just comes across like some whiney brat with a skimmed knee. Traditional storefront/LFS' need to learn to compete with etailers,, dribbling on about internet sales tax, in the vain hope someone will take notice is one way I suppose, but at the end of the day they either adapt to the business environment or die.

Personally though, I'd be lost without my LFS', I rely on them for 90% of my livestock.
 

Money Pit

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Cortez,

Again you turn to attacking those who disagree with you. You fail to mention anything about the fact that nearly every fish sold, through etailers or retailers come from the same wholesalers. RETAILERS are selling the same fish caught from the same locations by the same methods by the same fisherman as the E-tailers. If this wasn't true then what was Burton talking about in the conclusion of his letter? What is your problem with e-tailers other then they don't have to shovel snow in the winter?

BTW, all my fish, corals & inverts have been purchased from Aquarium City(LFS) and have cost me less then online especially when you factor in shipping costs. I purchase all my drygoods online, or is that bad for the environment too?.
 

dizzy

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Juck said:
I own a small business and I sympathize with the author's position, but it just comes across like some whiney brat with a skimmed knee.
Juck if you own a business I have a question. Do you think your wholesalers should also etail? Especially at low ball prices? You and Money Pitt should realize that this letter was not written for public consumption. It was the AMDA BOD informing the membership at large about the direction we feel the organization needs to go. Several of our former members have gone out of business in the past couple of years and we see the trend continuing. Burton did a good job of laying out some of the advantages etailers have over brick and motars. We are trying to get ethical retailers to form a large group that can provide benefits to its members. We fully expected that it would not be that popular with the etail shoppers. This letter was placed here at my suggestion so that other b&m retailers who frequent this board would be able to see it. You know it like that saying " United we stand divided we fall." We have no illusions about stopping etail. Any ethical retailer that is interested in joining us should go to www.amdareef.com for more information.
Mitch
 

dizzy

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MP,
I just told you why the letter was written. Burton wrote the letter and we signed off on it. Steve chose those that lead in after we voted to go public with it. It was not written as an open letter to the public. Trust me on that one.
Mitch
 

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