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I noticed on WWM that P. venusta was placed in its own separate genus (Ryukku? or some other Japanes name?) while P. multifasciata and P. boylei were the only ones in Paracentropyge.
Paracentropyge multifasciata - Multi-Barred Angel
- Thread starter Tarasco
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GSchiemer":3bwgvg6a said:
Indeed, cannot argue that point. Although what piqued my interest was the portion of the comment that came afterwards " In the two months I have had it, it has gotten very skinny, but has since fattened up again." I'm wondering if by this statement he means more than the belly being fattened up, and is meaning that nice fatness we see behind the head and along the dorsal region in a really healthy, well-fed fish.
Also, you mentioned obligate feeder on sponge, but didn't go into further detail.
Hhmm.. well, in any event, going into fishbase nets Centropyge, and even when you hit the Paracentropyge links, it takes you to Centropyge.
When you are at a species page of FishBase click on the "Synonyms" page. This will give you a history of the fish's taxonomic nomenclature. You can then click on the links there to see the references used for the names.
But this information doesn't answer "why" questions if you have them. Taxonomists are compelled to name fish in such a way that they are grouped by evolutionary relationship. All of the species of Centropyge are assumed to have the same common ancestor(s) and in fact are all distant cousins of each other. There are other rules of taxonomy that involve things like historical timelines and attempts to find first descriptions in very old texts and expedition manuscripts.
Synonyms of Centropyge venustus:
Synonym/Author/Status/Valid
Paracentropyge venusta /(Yasuda &Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/ No
Centropyge venusta /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/No
Holacanthus venustus /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /original combination/ No
Sumireyakko venustus /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/No
Centropyge venustus /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/Yes
http://www.fishbase.org/Nomenclatur...189&GenusName=Centropyge&SpeciesName=venustus
But this information doesn't answer "why" questions if you have them. Taxonomists are compelled to name fish in such a way that they are grouped by evolutionary relationship. All of the species of Centropyge are assumed to have the same common ancestor(s) and in fact are all distant cousins of each other. There are other rules of taxonomy that involve things like historical timelines and attempts to find first descriptions in very old texts and expedition manuscripts.
Synonyms of Centropyge venustus:
Synonym/Author/Status/Valid
Paracentropyge venusta /(Yasuda &Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/ No
Centropyge venusta /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/No
Holacanthus venustus /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /original combination/ No
Sumireyakko venustus /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/No
Centropyge venustus /(Yasuda & Tominaga, 1969) /new combination/Yes
http://www.fishbase.org/Nomenclatur...189&GenusName=Centropyge&SpeciesName=venustus
An update at just over the one week mark: The fish is still very timid. He basically has a cave that he hides in most of the time, with brief forays out in the open when he thinks that I'm not looking. He stopped picking at the Formula 2 flakes, but I've gotten him recently to go after brine and mysis shrimp. He doesn't go after them with gusto, and actually seems to prefer the brine, but it's a start. I'm going to continue with the brine to keep up the feeding response, but slowly wean him from it, replacing with more mysis shrimp.
Also, he appears to enjoy picking at my open brain. I only have three LPS in my tank (the other two are a long tentacle plate and a branching frogspawn), and this is the only one that it appears interested in. I'm pretty much willing to sacrafice the brain for the angel, if it comes down to it. I do have a couple types of sponges growing on my live rock, but the fish never appeared interested in any of it, and I was never expecting the fish to use it as a food source (although it would have been nice).
He basically stays on one side of the tank. He appears to be friendly with my yellow long nose butterfly. I'm going to continue trying to target feed his cave, and report when there are more developments. Thanks for the taxonomy info as well!
Also, he appears to enjoy picking at my open brain. I only have three LPS in my tank (the other two are a long tentacle plate and a branching frogspawn), and this is the only one that it appears interested in. I'm pretty much willing to sacrafice the brain for the angel, if it comes down to it. I do have a couple types of sponges growing on my live rock, but the fish never appeared interested in any of it, and I was never expecting the fish to use it as a food source (although it would have been nice).
He basically stays on one side of the tank. He appears to be friendly with my yellow long nose butterfly. I'm going to continue trying to target feed his cave, and report when there are more developments. Thanks for the taxonomy info as well!
I realize there are certain fish, corals, etc that we should not try to keep in this hobby and we should do our research on any subject we desire to purchase for our tank and I get tired of so called experts climbing on our backs for purchasing these animals, corals, etc.
Sure if we don't purchase them it may discourage LFS from selling them but personally I think these fish, corals, etc should not be allowed to be collected by private divers or commercial divers thus not getting into the hands of whole salers and then on to LFS.
We talk about taking care of the problem well lets get to the real solution and outlaw these practices of harvesting fish, corals, etc that have no chance of survival or very minimal change to survive in our tanks.
Letting them die in the LFS is bullsh@t!!! It should never come to that either! I strongly believe in propagation of corals and fishes so we can eliminate purchasing those subjects that will not die needlessly in our systems and in this sense we are headed in the right direction but as long as governing authorities allow these low survival subjects to continue to enter the trade and like the above person who purchased this fish said, there is not enough info to obtain to properly make the right choice, then we will contine to see this happening all the time.
Well hopefully someday we will get it right and we all can have happy and healthy subjects thriving in our tanks. I for one am all for that! Johnny
Sure if we don't purchase them it may discourage LFS from selling them but personally I think these fish, corals, etc should not be allowed to be collected by private divers or commercial divers thus not getting into the hands of whole salers and then on to LFS.
We talk about taking care of the problem well lets get to the real solution and outlaw these practices of harvesting fish, corals, etc that have no chance of survival or very minimal change to survive in our tanks.
Letting them die in the LFS is bullsh@t!!! It should never come to that either! I strongly believe in propagation of corals and fishes so we can eliminate purchasing those subjects that will not die needlessly in our systems and in this sense we are headed in the right direction but as long as governing authorities allow these low survival subjects to continue to enter the trade and like the above person who purchased this fish said, there is not enough info to obtain to properly make the right choice, then we will contine to see this happening all the time.
Well hopefully someday we will get it right and we all can have happy and healthy subjects thriving in our tanks. I for one am all for that! Johnny
MontanaRocknReefer":sztute8o said:I realize there are certain fish, corals, etc that we should not try to keep in this hobby and we should do our research on any subject we desire to purchase for our tank and I get tired of so called experts climbing on our backs for purchasing these animals, corals, etc.
Sure if we don't purchase them it may discourage LFS from selling them but personally I think these fish, corals, etc should not be allowed to be collected by private divers or commercial divers thus not getting into the hands of whole salers and then on to LFS.
We talk about taking care of the problem well lets get to the real solution and outlaw these practices of harvesting fish, corals, etc that have no chance of survival or very minimal change to survive in our tanks.
Letting them die in the LFS is bullsh@t!!! It should never come to that either! I strongly believe in propagation of corals and fishes so we can eliminate purchasing those subjects that will not die needlessly in our systems and in this sense we are headed in the right direction but as long as governing authorities allow these low survival subjects to continue to enter the trade and like the above person who purchased this fish said, there is not enough info to obtain to properly make the right choice, then we will contine to see this happening all the time.
Well hopefully someday we will get it right and we all can have happy and healthy subjects thriving in our tanks. I for one am all for that! Johnny
I debated whether to respond to your post because you completely missed the point, and you seem to be arguing against yourself. You start by saying "I get tired of so called experts climbing on our backs for purchasing these animals" and then "I think these fish, corals, etc should not be allowed to be collected by private divers or commercial divers ."
I know it seems cruel, but the best thing is to let these animals die at the store. The main objective of a store is to make money, so if a particular fish or coral dies at the store, it won't be replaced. As long as someone purchases a fish or coral, it will be replaced. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that local fish stores, whoelsalers, and collectors will not police themselves. The only "weapon" we have in the fight is our buying power, and the best way to fight is not to buy these animals in the first place. Additionally, we can educate others not to buy them. Hopefully the word will get out and it will make an impact.
I apologize for coming on strong, but it's a pet peeve of mine. I wish I had a nickel for every post that began: "I just bought this fish/coral. Can someone tell me what it is/eats, etc.?" I just can't imagine buying any live animal or plant without first knowing its care requirements.
Greg
Greg, I can understand your stance quite well, it is how I was brought up. I, too, would never purchase an animal without first knowing a great deal more about it. One exception was the cockatiel one of my neighbors had put in the barn with her chickens. I adopted the bird first, then got online for the first time in my life. That was a little over three years ago (now I'm a monster!). I, too, get more than annoyed when folks write in saying very much the same thing, "I got this (fill in the blank)_____ ." (Last week it was a college kid who collected his own "ahctapas", wasn't even sure what it was.. ergh..)
I think another angle is to consider that it's actually quite likely that the fish will not die in the store, but in under the ownership of an owner nowhere nearly as conscientious. Thusly, the shop owner realizes his profit, the wholesaler realizes his profit, the collector realizes his profit. They do not collect and sell these animals first asking for credentials, and try as we might, we cannot hope to stem the flow of true idiots who jump into this hobby. This is why I am so vocal in my disapproval, as you are, when I answer queries from folks who say exactly what you lament. However, when I run across those who are willing to go to great trouble to ensure said specimen lives, well.. how can I not try to help them?
Clearly, Tarasco intends to do whatever he can as well as go to great lengths to keep this animal healthy. If we could find more information on feeding habits, then it can be made public knowledge.
It's a serious Catch 22, all too similar to the laws governing our respective states regarding what animals we can keep. We cannot rule out the idiot factor, and at this point, the regulation may be necessary doesn't exist. (Just try calling the ASPCA or Humane Society when you see a shop full of suffering fish. Way low on the totem pole.)
I think another angle is to consider that it's actually quite likely that the fish will not die in the store, but in under the ownership of an owner nowhere nearly as conscientious. Thusly, the shop owner realizes his profit, the wholesaler realizes his profit, the collector realizes his profit. They do not collect and sell these animals first asking for credentials, and try as we might, we cannot hope to stem the flow of true idiots who jump into this hobby. This is why I am so vocal in my disapproval, as you are, when I answer queries from folks who say exactly what you lament. However, when I run across those who are willing to go to great trouble to ensure said specimen lives, well.. how can I not try to help them?
Clearly, Tarasco intends to do whatever he can as well as go to great lengths to keep this animal healthy. If we could find more information on feeding habits, then it can be made public knowledge.
It's a serious Catch 22, all too similar to the laws governing our respective states regarding what animals we can keep. We cannot rule out the idiot factor, and at this point, the regulation may be necessary doesn't exist. (Just try calling the ASPCA or Humane Society when you see a shop full of suffering fish. Way low on the totem pole.)
John_Brandt - I don't mind the itchiness, it's just having my head wet all the time that's a problem!
GSchiemer - Sorry if I made it seem like I didn't look into this fish at all before purchase, that was a mistake in the way I first posted. But I'm definitely glad that you shared your opinion, it'll make people think twice about purchasing this fish.
Seamaiden - Thanks for the support! It's definitely appreciated.
Also, the pic at the beginning of this thread isn't mine. Although mine looks very similar, it doesn't have the eyespot on the fin that is associated with juveniles like the one in the pic. So I'm guessing my guy is adult.
GSchiemer - Sorry if I made it seem like I didn't look into this fish at all before purchase, that was a mistake in the way I first posted. But I'm definitely glad that you shared your opinion, it'll make people think twice about purchasing this fish.
Seamaiden - Thanks for the support! It's definitely appreciated.
Also, the pic at the beginning of this thread isn't mine. Although mine looks very similar, it doesn't have the eyespot on the fin that is associated with juveniles like the one in the pic. So I'm guessing my guy is adult.
Just for some background, I have 4 x 96 watt PC lighting, two of them being actinics. I also do the "dusk and dawn" effect, where only the actinics are on for an hour at both the beginning and the end of the photoperiod. I haven't noticed him being more or less active during these times. His cave has a really dark spot that he spent most of his time in the first couple of days, but he doesn't hang in that part as much anymore.
Actually, last night was one of the first times when he actually came out when he saw me. I guess spending the whole weekend near the tank doing continuous small feedings had an impact on him, and he probably associates me with food now (just a guess). When I got home from work last night, he came out and stared at me, and he was moving around the tank out in the open a little more than usual. Encouraging.
As for feeding, he definitely has a preference for the frozen brine, but I noticed that he will go after the frozen mysis if the pieces are small enough. It may take somee effort, but I might start cutting up the bigger pieces of mysis. If I don't see him going after more mysis by the end of the week, I might end up doing that.
I'm also still trying Formula 2 and Prime Reef flakes, as well as frozen Formula 1 and Angel Formula. With all of these, he does the "suck it in and spit it out" thing that fish do, I guess when it doesn't taste right to them. The only thing that he hasn't tried yet is the Sweetwater zooplankton. Also, he still loves picking at the rocks. I haven't noticed any weight loss yet. Still trying everything I can.
Actually, last night was one of the first times when he actually came out when he saw me. I guess spending the whole weekend near the tank doing continuous small feedings had an impact on him, and he probably associates me with food now (just a guess). When I got home from work last night, he came out and stared at me, and he was moving around the tank out in the open a little more than usual. Encouraging.
As for feeding, he definitely has a preference for the frozen brine, but I noticed that he will go after the frozen mysis if the pieces are small enough. It may take somee effort, but I might start cutting up the bigger pieces of mysis. If I don't see him going after more mysis by the end of the week, I might end up doing that.
I'm also still trying Formula 2 and Prime Reef flakes, as well as frozen Formula 1 and Angel Formula. With all of these, he does the "suck it in and spit it out" thing that fish do, I guess when it doesn't taste right to them. The only thing that he hasn't tried yet is the Sweetwater zooplankton. Also, he still loves picking at the rocks. I haven't noticed any weight loss yet. Still trying everything I can.
Update at the end of week 2: A couple of days ago I got home from work, and hear my girlfriend ask “What’s with the angel?” I rushed over to the tank expecting the worst, but all I saw was the little guy picking on the rocks, swimming around minding his own business. I asked what she was talking about, and she said, ”Well, he isn’t hiding!”
Since then the guy has been out and about, and does not appear the least bit shy. He does occasionally retire to his cave, but for the most part I see him as much as my other fish.
As for feeding, it is now actively eating mysis shrimp. It still picks at the brain, and the brain is starting to look a little worse for it. I’m trying to get the fish to branch out and eat other things by mixing them with brine shrimp, since that’s how I got it to eat the mysis. I just started this, so we’ll see how it works. I still haven’t noticed any weight loss.
In terms of behavior it has defended its cave from my flame hawk (which, for some reason, is the low man on the totem pole in my tank), but nothing that appeared to be a cause for concern.
Since then the guy has been out and about, and does not appear the least bit shy. He does occasionally retire to his cave, but for the most part I see him as much as my other fish.
As for feeding, it is now actively eating mysis shrimp. It still picks at the brain, and the brain is starting to look a little worse for it. I’m trying to get the fish to branch out and eat other things by mixing them with brine shrimp, since that’s how I got it to eat the mysis. I just started this, so we’ll see how it works. I still haven’t noticed any weight loss.
In terms of behavior it has defended its cave from my flame hawk (which, for some reason, is the low man on the totem pole in my tank), but nothing that appeared to be a cause for concern.
An update at the one month mark:
Things aren't going as well as I'd like. Although he eats some mysis, it isn't usually that much, more like a bite or two, then he loses interest. I think that this is partly due to me trying to get him to eat a variety of foods (such as forumla 1/2, angel formula, dwarf angel formula, and others) by mixing them with brine shrimp, the way that I got him to eat mysis. However, when I do this, he just goes through and picks all the brine shrimp out. He LOVES brine, but getting him to eat other things is still a challenge. I'm making sure to add vitamins to everything. He's a nibbler, and I'm hoping that his appetite will increase.
Unfortunately, he also seems to have lost a little bit of weight. Not a lot, but I think that any weight loss is cause for concern. Again, adding vitamins.
I finally managed to get a pic after getting the camera from my girlfriend. I don't know the camera too well, and you can see that I'm crap as a photographer. He was out and about, then when he saw the camera he seems to be afraid of it, and went into hiding the whole time. As such, this is the only pic I could get that is somewhat decent. Sorry for the blur.
Things aren't going as well as I'd like. Although he eats some mysis, it isn't usually that much, more like a bite or two, then he loses interest. I think that this is partly due to me trying to get him to eat a variety of foods (such as forumla 1/2, angel formula, dwarf angel formula, and others) by mixing them with brine shrimp, the way that I got him to eat mysis. However, when I do this, he just goes through and picks all the brine shrimp out. He LOVES brine, but getting him to eat other things is still a challenge. I'm making sure to add vitamins to everything. He's a nibbler, and I'm hoping that his appetite will increase.
Unfortunately, he also seems to have lost a little bit of weight. Not a lot, but I think that any weight loss is cause for concern. Again, adding vitamins.
I finally managed to get a pic after getting the camera from my girlfriend. I don't know the camera too well, and you can see that I'm crap as a photographer. He was out and about, then when he saw the camera he seems to be afraid of it, and went into hiding the whole time. As such, this is the only pic I could get that is somewhat decent. Sorry for the blur.
Attachments
This post by coralite on RC kinda freaked me out:
"I am a big fan of the multibar angel myself, I have tried a couple but i fear tha it is impossible to keep it alive because this fish is only exported out of the philipines where they are cyanide caught. It seems that even in well established large reef tanks where they have plenty of natural foodstuff available, they still waste away. this is a result of being cyanide caught and not being able to metabolize properly. I hope this wont be the case with your angel and should you succeed, i will be mighty envious."
I don't have any experience with cyanide caught fish, but the symptoms sound kind of similar. However, I thought my guy was from Fiji, but I can't remember now. Something to think about, and I hope that's not what's going on.
"I am a big fan of the multibar angel myself, I have tried a couple but i fear tha it is impossible to keep it alive because this fish is only exported out of the philipines where they are cyanide caught. It seems that even in well established large reef tanks where they have plenty of natural foodstuff available, they still waste away. this is a result of being cyanide caught and not being able to metabolize properly. I hope this wont be the case with your angel and should you succeed, i will be mighty envious."
I don't have any experience with cyanide caught fish, but the symptoms sound kind of similar. However, I thought my guy was from Fiji, but I can't remember now. Something to think about, and I hope that's not what's going on.
This does indeed describe what happens with cyanide caught fish. However, in this situation, considering the known difficulties of their care and specifically feeding, the only way to rule it out would be to perform a CDT, which, to the best of my knowledge, can only be performed on a fish once it's dead.
Great thread so far!
Many times you hear "That fish isn't eating because it was caught w/ cyanide." It doesn't hold water for me. Unfortunately, lots of fish are caught w/ cyanide, but they eat and metabolize oK afterwards... Not good news obviously, but it shoots down that hypothesis pretty well.
Extreme example: baby clown triggers are mostly caught w/ cyanide and as we know, they are still chow hounds...
So it's probably more like "We just don't understand the nutritional needs and habitat needs of these fish."
People also use the term "experiment" when they refer to tough fish like these and Regal Angels. I believe the proper term should be "shotgun feeding approach" as in "just try anything and everything until you find something that works." That's far from an experiment IMO. So I'm really glad to see a hobbyist documenting his efforts here. Please keep it up! And don't shy - if/when this fish dies, please report that here as well.
In the final analysis, sometimes the fish will eat like pigs and still die.
Example: I once bought an orange spotted filefish that was eating like a pig at the store (back in my beginning days). The fish ate enriched brine like a pig and still died of starvation! Obviously it was eating (and a lot) but its needs just weren't being met.
This angel is probably like that I'm afraid. It would be fun to do some dives and follow them around to see what they eat.
HTH
James
Many times you hear "That fish isn't eating because it was caught w/ cyanide." It doesn't hold water for me. Unfortunately, lots of fish are caught w/ cyanide, but they eat and metabolize oK afterwards... Not good news obviously, but it shoots down that hypothesis pretty well.
Extreme example: baby clown triggers are mostly caught w/ cyanide and as we know, they are still chow hounds...
So it's probably more like "We just don't understand the nutritional needs and habitat needs of these fish."
People also use the term "experiment" when they refer to tough fish like these and Regal Angels. I believe the proper term should be "shotgun feeding approach" as in "just try anything and everything until you find something that works." That's far from an experiment IMO. So I'm really glad to see a hobbyist documenting his efforts here. Please keep it up! And don't shy - if/when this fish dies, please report that here as well.
In the final analysis, sometimes the fish will eat like pigs and still die.
Example: I once bought an orange spotted filefish that was eating like a pig at the store (back in my beginning days). The fish ate enriched brine like a pig and still died of starvation! Obviously it was eating (and a lot) but its needs just weren't being met.
This angel is probably like that I'm afraid. It would be fun to do some dives and follow them around to see what they eat.
HTH
James
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