Need help!

[Asfur]

Hello everybody.
Sorry because to write you a long letter and if my langguage is not too good. I live in Indonesia, i've been keeping marine fish since 10 years ago, dedicating in F/O setup and specialist in keeping marine angel. Right now i have 3 adult angel in my 1.8m L x 0.9m W x 0.6 H, they are Asfur, Majestic and Emperor, 1 black velvet angel, 1 dwarf bicolor angel, 1 coris gaimard, 3 clown, 2 banggai cardinal, 1 small mellanotus, 1 small auriga, 3 blue damsel. Most of them are 3-5 years old tanks fish. The tank 3 months old and hold fish only.

Filtration using DIY sump wet/dry system. I seperated the sump into 4 block, block 1 for the wet/dry part with bioball and the filter pad at the above of the bioball to trap the debris part, block 2 for protein skimmer, block 3 for refugium, and block 4 for the pump to return the water back to the main tank. Each block are 30cm L x 40cm W. Water flow down from the upper surface.

Lighting using Power Glo total 200 watt with 18.000 kelven (it is stated in the lamp, but i doubt it is true), the color is white purplish with dominated in white color. Decoration just using dead rock with only 3-4 cm thick bed using crush coral.

Case 1 : I need to know the opinion about my setup, does my setup good or bad? You know, as an aquarist, i take the "natural experience feeling", i never test the water parameter. Because i take the economics phillosophy in keeping fish. When i want to setup new tank or somebody in my country ask me to teach them to setup the new marine tank, i will teach them like these :
1. Just keep fish, because keeping coral is much more difficult and cost you a lot of money.
2. Clean the rock as clean as possible, and decorate the tank with plenty of caves.
3. Just put 3-4 cm thick bed crush coral.
4. Put in the water, and run the filtration for at least 1 month without any fish to mature the system, and then gradually put the fish one by one.
5. Must have protein skimmer. (Does skimmer remove Ammonia, Nitrite or Nitrate) or just protein/waste compound in the water?
6. Don't put too many fishes.

By doing this i've never totally fail in keeping fish, yes i might lost several, but mostly will live for years. With this kind of system, i believe that nitrate must be high (although i never test it). And because i never mind the presence of higher algae like hairy algae and caulerpa, i seldom do a water changes. Usually just 15-25 % every 2-3 months, and clean the filter pad every 2 weeks to 1 months. But the question, why hairy algae do not presence in my tanks, and the caulerpa do not flourish too. I know green algae need iron to flourish but I've read too that this algae will also flourish with nitrate only. Is this correct?
What is the purpose of deep sand bed? Is this kind setup just to reduce nitrate, and no other advantage?
If i want to put the DSB, then what kind of renovation should i do? Or just put a mosquito screen above the crush coral and put the sand above that? Before i setup my new tank (mention above), i ever though to use LR, but as I know LR will slowly dead if we do not care them, for example giving them food nutrient? Is this correct?

Case 2 : In my country there is a saltwater forum like this forum, and we can post a letter and ask to the more experience local fish keeper. I don't know whether i'm correct or not, but i always strongly opposite and counter attack one of our most senior marine fish keeper (23 years of experience), he claim his system is the best and looks like he claim that he is the best, his phillosophy are like this :
1. Keeping marine fish is an expensive hobby, and anybody will go fail if they only setup a marine aquaria like me especially F/O setup. He said that marine aquarium is a connected system and no fish will live long without the presence of LR and coral.
2. He said he have 3 formula to avoid new tank syndrome (buying from west country, not made by himself). The formula are :
1. RDV (Remove and Develop) this formula is use to break down ammonia.
2. CH&F (Clean, Health and Fresh)this formula is use to clean water parameter, make the water and the fish more health and makes the water more fresh.
3. Spr&Gw (Supravit and Growth) this formula is to give vitamin and trace element to the water.
With this 3 formula plus inactive beneficial bacteria(will become active when introduce to the water,contain 9 kind of bacteria), you will no need to changes water again for many years and no need a protein skimmer! The system will go stable approx in 3 days!!!
I know he setup a DSB system with about 5-6 inch sand bed, but he is also said that the system can hold many fish and any kind of fish! And even for most fish that being claim to be impossible to keep like moorish idol, chaetodon trianggulum, trifacialis, trifaciatus can be long keep if we supply them with their food.

You konw, i'm very angry to read his opinion, not because he against me but because according to my opinion HE IS A BIG LIAR, no such thing are so easily like he said, if this so easy, then why we still learn about the nitrogen cycle, am i correct? Please advice.

Thank you for your kindness to read my long email.

 

[Anonymous]

Asfur, do I know you? You might remember me, in place of Mr. Bob from wetwebmedia..?

 

[Asfur]

Yes Ms. Harding, but i still need more help, and also because the man that i opposite of, is still stick with his opinion, so i just want a more wider opinion to counter misunderstanding!

 

[Anonymous]

Well, one of the other people who works on the site gave me this precious nugget of wisdom, and I thought that it was just too good not to share. We can credit this one to JasonC:

One way of looking at it is like this, someone can either have 23 years of experience, or he can have one year of experience 23 times.

Honestly, my friend, I think you're banging your head against a wall with this man. I don't know how folks are in Indonesia (culturally speaking), but it's been my experience that some, once having taken a position on something, must stand so firm in their stance that, even when presented with a mountain of information demonstrating something other than what they hold dear, will simply refuse to budge. I think you should know that your ideas and opinions are not bad or wrong.

Also, I am wont to repeat that this fishkeeping thing, this endeavor that eats us, is quite often at least as much art as it is science.

The best you can do is to help inform OTHERS who haven't got as much knowledge. Present your information well, back it up with good, scientific evidence, demonstrate how they, too, can find this good information by others who are knowledgeable, and you've done far more than just argue with this person.

 

[Asfur]

Thank you a lot, but i just thought that the information i give to the forum is the truth information but i told that my system is the best, i always told there are some system is best to apply to the aquarium. But i never told to the forum like he told, such as : a cyanide fish can be cure with a medicine contain a ProBiotic ingredients, if this fish can't be cure, why you people are buying a fish from our country.
I'm just losing my confidentself.

 

[danmhippo]

don't want to comment on the 23 year guy, but I want to caution you on your fishkeeping habits. Although NO3 is not as lethal to fish as it is to corals, but fish will still stress in ultra high Nitrate environment.

If you think you are as good as some of the veterans, then act like one and be responsible to the fish you keep. They are not just fish, they are life.

 

[Asfur]

Yap, thank you danmhippo i know high nitrate will also give bad effect to fish, but please don't be misunderstanding, what i mean is i just let nitrate in the water in order to growth hairy algae, and i still do a water changes. I do also respect their live. I want to try DSB system, so can you give me advice how to modify my system to make it DSB system.

 

[danmhippo]

The primary benefit of DSB is to reduce nitrate. By product of DSB is being able to grow micro fauna that are common in sand bed.

However, if your angels or wrasse have habit of disturbing sandbed, then your DSB will not work correctly, and will lose the nitrate reduction effect.

To be able to reduce NO3, the sand bed must develope anaerobic zone. For that zone to happen, the sand bed must use fine grain size, be at least 3-4 inches thick, and the top layer must not be disturbed too much. Lacking either, anaerobic zone will not develop, and your DSB is nothing but a big nitrate factory just like your bioballs.

There are also ways for you to implement DSB if you have sand digging fish. Such as your current setup, I would remove all LR and CC. Put in a 3" thick sugar grain sand, a mosquito screen on top of the fine sand, and then another 2-3 inches of sand on top of the screen. The idea is for the sandbed to lock NO3 down from the main current, and keep it as close to the anaerobic zone as possible.

Anaerobic bacteria usually takes several weeks to establish once the low oxygen zone develops.

 

[Anonymous]

One point of difference, Danm, I've seen excellent denitrification with DSBs that don't use "sand" per se, but small grained coral bits (1mm-2mm) at much deeper depths (>6").

Asfur, I think the reason you can't get good Caulerpa or hair algal growth is because you have all these fish that will likely keep any growth pruned. Just a guess, anyway.

 

[Asfur]

Ehm Danm, i think LR is for live rock but CC does it mean caulerpa?
BTW if i can't impplement the DSB system because of my fish, can i use commercial product for nitrate reducing like Coral Life Denitrator, the denitrator get the water by power head, we feed very slow current to the denitrator and the denitrator will pour it back to the water as a dip, if it can work properly, then i will buy one for my tank.
Oh ya, Seamaiden, i put my caulerpa in my sump not in my main tank, the main tank contain nothing but fish. The reason to put in the sump, because i think it will consume nitrate, so i hope the nitrate will keep at tolerate level.
Right now with crush coral as my gravel, i must siphon it regularly to decrease the mulm and debris particle. But if i apply DSBs, according to you i shouldn't disturb the gravel, but what about the debris, uneaten food that fall to the difficult places to siphon off, mulm, etc. I think that component will still fall to the gravel and will accumulate either at the surface of the upper gravel or fall to deeper part of gravel, then if this happen what should i do?

 

[Anonymous]

Hello Asfur. "CC" = "crushed coral".

If you have a refugium on the system, then I don't see why you can't utilize a deep sand bed. You just have to make sure the flow through that section is a bit slower and more diffused. The only reason its use in the tank would not be possible would be if the fish dig it up a lot.

If the Caulerpa is not doing well in your sump, then I would look at a couple of things first: lighting, mine grew like weeds with fluorescent only, but I did use a lot of it (4 bulbs, 4' long, 40W each, one was actinic). I did use two "shop" lights (the cheap ones from the hardware store) and one Coralife bulb that was more expensive. The other thing is if your protein skimmer is working VERY well, then it could be a possibility that there are not enough nutrients (including nitrate) for the Caulerpa to grow. I think this is unlikely, since you say you do get a buildup of mulm/detritus.

As for the mulm (detritus) that accumulates and would accumulate with a deep sand bed, there are animals that would handle some of this for you, such as certain starfish. Because of the wrasse, you would not be able to put in hermit crabs and other crustaceans or arthropods. However, I think you could use sandsifting cucumbers. Part of the issue of mulm is circulation, I would suggest setting up pumps (powerheads) so that it doesn't have a good chance to settle before being pulled into the protein skimmer. If you can set it up that way, you'll have much better results.

If you are regularly getting a lot of food that goes uneaten, I would suggest feeding less at a time, make sure all is eaten before adding more. You can also offer all these fish sushi wrap, the seaweed called "nori" here and in Japan, tied with a rubberband to a piece of rock. I don't know if you can get it in Indonesia, but it is worth a look.

 

[Asfur]

Thank you Danm and Seamaiden, you help me a lot.
Sorry to remember Seamaiden, but you're not yet answer my question about Coral Life Denitrator, will it works better than refugium? Please advice.
So if i want to implement DSBs in my sump, i think that i can't set the flow. Let me describe you once again about my sump :
1. The sump devide into 4 room. Room 1 are about 40 cm L x 40 cm W x 70 cm H, room 2 about 15 cm L x 40 cm W x 55 cm H, room 3 & 4 each are 25 cm L x 40 cm W x 45 H.
2. Room 1 for wet/dry part with bioball and filter pad above the bioball to trap debris, room 2 for skimmer, room 3 for refugium, room 4 for pump back to the main tank.
3. The water goes down to room 1 and enter to the room 2 through bottom niche so the water will pass the filter pad first and through the wet/dry part before entering room 2, from room 2 will fall down to the room 3 like water fall, and then from room 3 to the room 4 will goes from bottom again.
So, which room should i apply the DSBs?
Will it effective to apply the DSBs system, because as you see, there is no stagnant area in my sump, and does the DSBs need lighting, or can just leave it in the dark?

 

[Anonymous]

The refugium would be the place to apply the DSB. But you should add baffles or in some way restrict water flow.

I cannot speak to the Coralife denitrator because it's a piece of equipment I've never used. However, being the pragmatic woman I am, I see no reason to pay extra for a fancy piece of equipment to do something we can harness Mother Nature to do for us quite easily. If you cannot slow the flow down well enough in the "refugium" portion of your sump, then create a separate refugium. DSBs do not need lighting, they need sufficient sand depth and correct flow.

I suggest you search the wetwebmedia site, our library here http://www.reefs.org/library and the Advanced Aquarist database for more information on deep sand beds, I think you would find better and more complete understanding of how they work and how to utilize them. Also, if you can get macroalgae to grow, direct harvest will remove nitrate as well as other nutrients, but the macroalgae will need lighting.

 

[Asfur]

I'm just guessing that i can't slow down my sump, because of the construction are already like that, if i slow down 1 part, then other part will get the bad effect either over flow of the water or lack of water.
So may be i will try the denitrator, and combine with DSBs system in my main tank. If i apply in the main tank, then i will take out the wrasses. So, in order to apply in my establish tank, i want to take a quick action, i will put mosquito screen above my crush coral, then pour the sugar grain size sand above the screen. Can it work well? What is the minimum depth for DSBs system?
But with this technic, there is absolutely no water flow below the sand bed, it will be very stagnant, because i do not put the undergravel system in my tank, may it happen? (Because you said that i must set a correct flow.)

 

[chefer]

I have a 3 seperate sump. 1st the skimmer, 2nd refug and 3rd the return. I have alot of water flow going though aprox 1200 gph. and have a deep sand bed that is not disturbed and doing quite well. I would suggest to put a baffel from the top of the sump to 2-3 inches from the bottom of the sump tank with another small baffel about 5 inches in front of that to hold the sand and that the water passes over the sand base and twords the top of the tank where I would have the water spill into the 4th section(return). that way the water flow rises above the sand base and does not disturb it. Works great for me!! :lol: If you look at the hang on refugs they are set up in 3 compartments the same way.

 

[Asfur]

Can you give me another words for baffle (sorry i don't know what baffle is).
But i've been told that DSBs and also plenum will only reduce small part of nitrate, not so many. So, with my system when the nitrate is 50 ppm, the DSB or plenum will not give much of advantages, is this correct?
How about if i create no water flow/stagnant water, will it work? If this work, then may be i can apply it to the establish tank, just put the mosquito screen above the crush coral and pour the sugar grain size sand over it. It will stagnant because i don't apply an undergravel system. Please advice.

 

[chefer]

A baffel is a partial wall that seperates your compartments in your sump. I would have it set up so the water is comming in the bottom of you refug and falling "like a waterfall" into your return pump, opposite of what you have right now. Mine works well like this and doesn't disturb the sand bed but still has significant water running over the top for water exchange. Dont know about putting sand over the cc I have cc in my tank as well and want to change it for sand and was told by one person to remove everything from the tank and put sand in. but was told by another just to put the sand on top of the cc because my tank is allready established for 8 months and it would do more harm to disturb things by removing everything. Another words the benifits did not out weigh the means. I think I said that right. I am slowly going to remove the cc and replace it with the sand as much as I can with out removing the live rock. Make sure to use ro/di water it makes a big difference. It has only been 2 weeks since I have had it and my algea problems are slowly dissapearing.

 

[Asfur]

Any comment from you Seamaiden?

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, my friends, I do have comments. First being for Asfur, we must get our mutual information, my boyfriend intends to take me to Bali next year (this would be his second trip).

I will again strongly recommend you try to read through the information available online, as I feel you don't entirely understand how the deep sand bed system works. Chefer is correct, baffles are simply walls, partial walls. However, s/he also pointed out to you to look at the design of hang-on-tank refugiums, and I will as well. This may be a very good option for you, instead of making modifications to your own sump design. Chefer, you are giving good advice, in my opinion.

All we need is to get through some of our language barriers, and I know less Balinese/Indonesian than I do Spanish!

Now, there is no need to place screen over the crushed coral, the sand will filter down on its own rather quickly, which is preferable. What is important is that you achieve the anaerobic or anoxic layer in the sand bed (which does not have to be "sand", it can be small coral pieces about 1mm-2mm, as mentioned before). In order to gain this layer, it is actually desirable to have reduced water flow in these deepest parts of the sand bed. The flow you want through the refugium would be about 3 times to 6 times the refugium's volume. That is to say, if you had a 20 liter refugium, you want the flow through it to be 60 - 120 liters/per hour.

Instead of getting rid of the wrasses, you could simply screen off portions of the sand bed. This would allow them to bury themselves without the chance of destroying the entire sand bed. I don't know who told you that the deep sand bed can only reduce nitrate a little, I do not feel this is correct. It will convert as much as it can, but it takes a long time. You would know it is working because it would develop bubbles, which are not air or oxygen, they are actually nitrogen gas.

Chefer, is there any way you might be able to take photos of your sump, or make drawings for Asfur to see? I know how to post photos, but haven't got any tanks of my own to photograph. I will now search for helpful links..

 

[Anonymous]

A good page for viewing refugium that is outside of tank, systems, and flow with photos

Build your own refugium system

And a photo of a ready-made refugium, with macroalgae in it...