How do you make a puffer fish puff?

[Anonymous]

Just a silly observation.

Since puffers and the like are notorious ick and parasite magnets, and a whole slew of bacterial and skin problems, and seem to get anything and everything at the drop of a hat - why would you want to run the risk?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm in a little bit of disbelief that so many experienced aquarists find such behavior acceptable. Surely, you realize a lot of new aquarists frequent your BB. Honestly, I think you fellows are acting irresponsibly.

I am confused. Most of the people in this thread said they wouldn't pinch a puffer if they had one, and they are arguing that if you do choose to pinch a puffer, you need to do it responsibly.

I am still wondering if there is any data at all showing that puffing is bad for the fish.

However, just because we have selfishly choosen to pull these animals out of there natural habitat, doesn't mean they cease to matter after the fact. You argue that we're all wrong to keep tanks in the first place, so it really doesn't matter what we do with the contents.

No one has made any of those arguments. Please disagree with me and others all you want, but please try not to innacurately polarize and generalize arguments to bolster your side. If you truly believe that the above has been argued by anyone here, and Ernies explanation has not cleared it up, please let me know. I would hate for such confusion to remain active.

We want you here Meg. You care, you are a good reefer, and you have a different opinion than I do. I hope you stay around and dont confuse straightforward disagreement with something else.

There is, and will always be disagreement in this hobby. I am proud of this discussion. It could have easily turned into silly name calling. Instead it has been a good example of how to explore different views on a charged subject without reverting to stupidity.

 

[Anonymous]

What do you guys think about feeding fish to other fish?

 

[mountainbiker619]

In regards to feeding fish to other fish, Correct me if I am wrong, but some fish's main diet in their natural waters is fish. If we reefers are trying to imulate an exact replica to the best degree of a certain fish's natural waters, the feeding it fish fits into the equation.

 

[Anonymous]

Just not GOLDFISH! (Yuck) :x

 

[Anonymous]

I fed damsels to my frogfish, because that's just about all it would eat. Tried weaning to frozen with no luck.

Since puffers and the like are notorious ick and parasite magnets, and a whole slew of bacterial and skin problems, and seem to get anything and everything at the drop of a hat - why would you want to run the risk?

Good point.

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone ever notice that when you scratch your dogs belly it kicks and twitches its feet?

:mrgreen:

I would think a puffer would need a "good strecthing out" every once in a while. Else we need to come up with another name for them. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Anyone ever notice that when you scratch your dogs belly it kicks and twitches its feet?

:mrgreen:

I would think a puffer would need a "good strecthing out" every once in a while. Else we need to come up with another name for them. :wink:

Ah, but then you're really not chasing your dog around, holding it's head under water, and forcing it to do that. Are you?
And you're certainly not removing body slime and increasing it's risk of bacterial infections either.

At least I hope you're not! :lol:

 

[brandon4291]

man these analogies are being stretched pretty thin! a dog underwater/// A puffer would not puff up all the time in nature because it is impossible to aquire food in that state, but that doesnt mean the condition is painful. I don't think a natural response that an animal develops over time would carry a lot of pain, the evolutionary cycle (natural selection cycle) will develop cartilage and elastins in all the right places. Ill bet the stimulus that causes them to puff is more painful than the actual puff...but Im not a puffer so who knows. I still think it is a better bet to state that an evolutionary process will utilize energy in the most efficient manner or it would not be selected for, the puff is a physical state this animal is built 100% to do. I dont think there is any pain but Im not a fish expert either. Id take John's word for it. Heck, someone should also pm Borneman to see what he thinks. These guys' input is the best we have to go on.

 

[Reef_Monkey]

Good Lord... 8O This is crazy, when I said that I chased him around the tank, I didn't mean like a full blown persuit!! I just kind of followed him with my hand. It's not like I was out for blood. I haven't touched him, cuz what I'm gettin' is I should let him be and he will eventually puff on his own. . . and if he doesn't, then I probably won't pinch him.

Zepplin,
Those pictures you posted were awesome!! Thanks you so much for those! Those were perfect. I really don't need to see mine puff, although I would still like to see it happen...Naturally or course :wink:
I still haven't read all of this cuz I have to go back to work, but I will get to them tomorrow, where hopefully there is even more for me to read. This is very educational for me as well as funny. You guys are wicked crazy out there!!
Okay thanks again all!!
[/b]

 

[EmilyB]

Yes, Zepplin, the pictures were incredible. 8)

I myself have a valentini puffer (also in a reef tank). Puffin "puffed" one day out of the blue, and it was the most incredible thing I have ever seen. I don't know why he did it. At the time, I had not heard this was a "bad thing". However, when I mentioned it to some people, they said it was very stressful for a puffer to do this. So I don't mention it much anymore....... :roll: but this thread was a good chance to remember it.

I certainly wouldn't dream of pinching puffer, or tang for that matter..... :wink:

 

[John_Brandt]

Copyright by JJPhoto.

 

[esmithiii]

Wow!

 

[Reef_Monkey]

**I can't get John_Brandt's picture to load!! Why?**

Well it looks like everybody had there say...(if you haven't I wanna hear it )I just wanted to thank everyone one more time who voiced there opinions and facts. This was a lot of fun reading all this...I never expected such a response!! It was also very informative for me... Thanks again,

~Ed

P.S. I'm not pinchin' my puffer... :wink:

 

[Supergenius74]

I can't believe how long this thread got, amazing. Obviously everyone here is gonna have a different opinion as to what is right or wrong and we could argue for ever about it. Bottom line is this, our hobby is kind of a catch 22, i mean we say we love our pets and want to give them best life possible but If that were true then we would have to put them back in the ocean right? talk about being hipocritical, we are all guilty of that. Everyone has a differnet opinion of how to treat a pet and since there are so many differnet opions most cities have ordinances to keep people from abusing pets. Animals are animals and wether ther are in the wild or in your house we as humans have a responsability to do the intelligent thing with animals, which is to treat them the same in captivity as they are treated in the wild. The animal deserves it since they did not ask to be captured. Fish in the wild get sick, die, hurt, eaten, etc. in the wild but i seriously doubt anyone is pinching them out there so to do that is actually ab-normal for the fish and basically an ignorant way to treat them.

 

[Eric Borneman]

I was asked to come view this thread, and I'm almost sorry I did.

First of all, I find the initial post disturbing enough.

Then, John - I cannot believe you posted what you did! You of all people should know already how these message boards work and what such comments will do. I know you well enough and what you do for the hobby to know that you aren't running around pinching puffers and even if you did, how you benefit the hobby outweighs any puffer pinching...but Christ, John! You don't post things like this on an open forum for people to read!

The point of the matter is that in puffers, puffing is a stress and defense reaction. Stress causes illness. Further, and more directly, they can get air trapped and be unable to deflate. This alone can kill them. Then, they are unable to swim properly, can become lodged in the tank rockwork, get sucked into pumps and against powerheads and overflows in such a state, and in the stress response can release enough tetrodotoxin to kill other things in the tank, including themselves as they are not immune to tdt, either.

Then the fool's pilosophy party gets kicked into high gear which seems to be a mainstay of any thread of this nature and for which I can't even be bothered so astoundingly abtuse are the majority of comments and so emotionally charged are the retorts.

What does bother me further, though, is that some of the rdo "team" members, regardless of the correctness, substance, or simple opinion they present (in some cases ok, in some cases distrubing enough to warrant jail time, IMO!) are behaving as though they are just members. With a moderating position, one must be careful enough to recognize that opinions should be stated as opinion, facts should be backed up, and that above all it is required to control the thread and make sure that the thousands of people reading and posting (most are just reading, not posting!) are not influenced in such a way that the hobby is ultimately harmed by what takes place in these forums. I stopped reading after page 3, and I suspect based on twelve years of moderating forums that there is only more of the same to the end.

In particular, Ernie, I question your mindset and the degree of knowledge that should be minimally required to be a "rdo team" member, and personally have serious questions as to whether or not you should be entrusted as stewards of fish or any other animals. Hollow arguments, bad facts, and a heart and fist of steel are no way to care for animals...and, by the way, which you are, too. Humans are not separate, contrary to what you think, from the Kingdom Animalia and your posts reinforce that to the nth degree.

 

[mountainbiker619]

I stopped reading after page 3, and I suspect based on twelve years of moderating forums that there is only more of the same to the end.

So let me get this right. A good "moderator" makes judgment without even reading the entire thread, not even knowing if everyone came to a conclusion or not.

 

[esmithiii]

In particular, Ernie, I question your mindset and the degree of knowledge that should be minimally required to be a "rdo team" member, and personally have serious questions as to whether or not you should be entrusted as stewards of fish or any other animals.

\

You are entitled to your opinion, and I to mine. As to my qualifications to be on the RDO taskforce, or to simply keep fish for that matter you will have to make your own judgement. I would ask, however that you refrain from judging until you read the entire argument and also weight the numerous (in the thousands) of posts I have made helping others. I have freely posted photos, diagrams, instructions, experiences on numerous aspects of this hobby. I try to be as humane as possible for the animals in my care, and have not done anything that could be construed as cruel, other than keeping the animals in the first place.

Humans are not separate, contrary to what you think, from the Kingdom Animalia and your posts reinforce that to the nth degree.

This is a matter of philosophy and theology. Each will have his/her interpretation. I do not equate the value of animal life with that of animal. Call me cruel, with a "heart and fist of steel" if you like, but I feel that is an unfair judgement.

I have continually been a proponent of captive raised fish and of coral propagation. I have continually advocated research (recommending your book often) to the newcomer. I have often advised against overstocking, and poor choices in the mix of specimines that a newcomer wished to place in his/her tank. I have often made posts spelling out the true cost and requirements of caring for these animals properly. I have often advised against species that are known to have poor survivability records in captivity. I started a reefkeepers club in Knoxville, donating time and money to get it started. I think your judgement may be rash.

Quite frankly I have always respected you for your incredible books, but I have lost a measure of respect for you. You are quick to judge and have abandoned a key tenent of the scientific method: Do not judge without all the facts.

You do not present a logical argument to the contrary, nor do you state facts. You rely on your name and status in this hobby to make your "opinion" more valid than those of others, and that, sir is disapointing.

Ernie

 

[Len]

For clarification's sake, Reefs.org taskforce members are not necessarily moderators. They are, in fact, "just members" who have generously committed themselves to improving our community. We all work on a volunteer basis with the shared goal of bettering our resource. Please note that the personal opinions of our admins, moderators, and members (RDOTF included) do not represent that of our entire community. Reefs.org is not interested in policing personal opinions. Our community appreciates everyone's inputs and only asks that you demonstrate civility towards your fellow members.

 

[saltyzoo]

The attempts to redirect from the basic problem in the thread sicken me greatly. Anything is said to avoid the basic situation that by doing this or promoting it you are harming or promoting harm to an animal, but every excuse and subterfuge in the book is used to get away from that fact.

You claim we've done nothing to prove that it's harmful. I disagree wholeheartedly, you simple have closed your mind to the truth. It is right there in front of your face. The truth is you have done nothing to prove that it is not harmful. Even if I am wrong and it is not harmful then my way still does no harm, if you are wrong, then your way is harmful!!!! The choice for anyone with ethics is clear.

Deriding Eric for "predjucing" is yet another way of avoiding accepting the truth about what you are and your methods of fishkeeping. First, you made the statements you made, and he read them. That is not predjudice. Because he chose not to read further idiotic statements does not make it predjudice. Second, don't for one second pretend that you "changed your mind" in any way shape or form. Just more evidence that subterfuge and word games is your intent here and ethical fishkeeping is the last thing on your mind.

Bottom line NOTHING GOOD CAN COME FROM THIS TYPE OF ACTION so why do it? To get your kicks is the only reason. That's pathetic.

PS> Try to actually discuss the topic instead of telling my that my spelling sucks, or that I used bad grammer, or whoshamacallit's debate techniques, or that I'm short, or whatever other completely off the point and ridiculous idiotic excuse you can come up with. Do you actually have anything constructive to say at all, or are you just here to annoy those that actually want to keep their fish healthy?