i just sold my porcupine to a friend but in the year that i had him i only saw him fully puffed up once, ocasionally he would get semi-puffed when eating and sucking too much air in from the surface and it looked painfull for him to expell the air since he twitched and twisted around till he flattened back out, but one day i was sitting at my desk and i just happened to look over and he looked like a tennis ball with spikes! quite scarry looking, i have no idea what caused it maybe another fish in the tank upset him but he was like that for about a minuet and then started deflating. I agree that you shouldn't try to upset you fish just to see him puff, look up some pics on the net if you wanna see what it looks like or just be patient and im sure it will just happen as it did for me.
How do you make a puffer fish puff?
- Thread starter Reef_Monkey
- Start date
- Status
I have never posted on reefs.org before, but am an avid poster on other reef-related internet bulletin boards. I was made aware of this particular thread via Reef Central. Several people are disturbed and saddened at the content of this thread. I felt strongly enough about the subject to join reefs.org to comment.
I have a deep love of puffers; they are wonderful animals, and wonderful pets. I realize that in order to keep them as pets, they have to be removed from their natural habitats, and then placed in homes which, regardless of care-quality, can never replace the ocean.
I like to think that I provide the best care possible for my puffer. I feed him a varied diet; do frequent water changes, etc. There isn't a lot I wouldn't do for that fish, as silly as that is. I realize the hypocrisy of loving and personifying an animal, when I admittedly have no problem eating meat. Regardless of my personal contradictions, I do love that fish as most people love their dogs.
I know somewhere along the line, a philosophical debate became entangled in this lengthy conversation, but I hope to avoid the finer philosophical points, and focus on the issues at hand.
I think its absolutely wrong to forcibly educe the puffing defense mechanism out of a puffer. To do so, is to exploit a terrified animal for ones personal amusement. Puffing is not a party trick; most often it is a signal that a puffer is really frightened. When a puffer does opt to inflate, it is usually because he feels he has no other option. Usually, when a puffer feels threatened, they will first attempt to swim away.
I have only kept porcupine puffers (Diodon holocanthus). I lack personal experience will spiny box fishes. However, I can't help feeling sad imagining a frantic puffer being pursued by some person who wants a cheap laugh. I have never heard of nor seen, a puffer split open in reaction to stress as Shakky described, but I do know that a puffer can die as a result of puffing. If a puffer inhales air upon puffing, they can certainly die.
Putting aside the fact that I don't condone this sort of treatment under any circumstances, I find it especially poor timing to stress a newly acquired puffer. Puffers are notorious for developing ich, and other illnesses, while adapting to new tanks.
Being that puffers are such poor adapters, the tank introduction/transitional period has got to be THE WORST time to expose a puffer to unneccessary stress. Puffers are in a delicate state of being their first month in a new tank, and you should really be focusing on preventing illness, not inventing ways to onset illness.
As long as I'm here I'd like to tell everyone about my puffer; Hoss. Hoss is an adolescent now. We've owned Hoss for 2 1/2 years. He was 2 inches long when we purchased him; he is 6 1/2 inches long now. Hoss eats a varied diet, the foundation of which is mysis and krill, but is supplemented with raw grocery store treats such as squid, scallop meat, clam, oyster, etc.
Hoss lives in our 125 gallon Reef tank. Hoss lives with a large variety of LPS,SPS and softies. A 125 is a good MINIMUM tank size for an adult porcupine puffer, which will be between 10-12 inches in length and 3-4 inches across at the head when full grown. In a year, we are upgrading the tank, and hope that Hoss will be able to live out the rest of his life in a 200-300 gallon.
Someone said earlier that puffers bite? I'm not sure about the temperments of spiny box fishes or dog faced puffers, but Hoss doesn't bite. I have my hand in the tank at least an hour a day, and Hoss has never bitten me, not in his whole life. I can understand, if a puffer spent their whole life being pinched, how they might be inclined to act aggressively though. Hoss is handfed twice a day, and doesn't even flinch when we run our fingers along his back. Perhaps it is flaky to say so, but in some way, I think Hoss trusts us. I think an abused puffer would be much more inclined to bite his owner.
Hoss shares his tank with a coral beauty, a 4-line wrasse, an arch-eye hawk-fish, and two chromis. Hoss has never eaten another fish. In my estimation, he is my least aggressive fish. That 4 line wrasse is a trouble maker.
Hoss also lives with a variety of inverts including several peppermint shrimp, two cleaner shrimp, innumerable hermits, many turbos and astrea, and a couple of emerald crabs. Hoss has devoured a few hemits in his time, but mostly he ignores them. He doesn't seem interested in snails, although he does have a taste for nassarius. I've stopped buying nassarius now, I learned my lesson. Hoss has never eaten a shrimp. I know it would be natural for him to consume shrimp in the wild, but he doesn't seem interested in captivity. In fact, the cleaner duo often work Hoss over at nap time. A few pictures for you...
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics April/April 2003 098.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics April/April 2003 102.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20104.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20107.jpg
Here are a few pictures of Hoss napping.
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20164.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20161.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20163.jpg
Tell me, does that look like an animal that would be fun to terrorize?
Finally, I'd like to talk about the puffing mechanism. To me it would be horrific to try and force this reaction, but luckily, you don't have to force a thing. Just wait long enough, and one day, your puffer will do it spontaneously. Our puffer inflates about once a month, seemingly for no reason. Hoss is by far the biggest predator in the tank, so I doubt he feels threatened by his tank mates. Usually, we'll be watching television about 10 feet away from the tank, and we'll look over and see an inflated Hoss. He usually only stays inflated for under a minute, but it is a wonder to watch. We hypothesize about the motive for Hoss' seemingly pointless puffing. Your guess is as good as ours.
Here is a sequence of pictures taken on a day when Hoss inflated and we were lucky enough to have the digital camera on hand. Once again, please never attempt to force this reaction out of your puffer, just wait long enough, and it will happen on its own.
The first two pictures show an already inflated Hoss...
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20153.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20154.jpg
These next couple of pictures show the deflation process...
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20155.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20156.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20157.jpg
Thank you for tolerating my longwinded response guys. I felt it neccessary to say my piece on this subject. I hope for less emotional subject matter in my future reefs.org contributions.
-Meg
President of the West Michigan Marine Aquarium Club
Member of Team RC
I have a deep love of puffers; they are wonderful animals, and wonderful pets. I realize that in order to keep them as pets, they have to be removed from their natural habitats, and then placed in homes which, regardless of care-quality, can never replace the ocean.
I like to think that I provide the best care possible for my puffer. I feed him a varied diet; do frequent water changes, etc. There isn't a lot I wouldn't do for that fish, as silly as that is. I realize the hypocrisy of loving and personifying an animal, when I admittedly have no problem eating meat. Regardless of my personal contradictions, I do love that fish as most people love their dogs.
I know somewhere along the line, a philosophical debate became entangled in this lengthy conversation, but I hope to avoid the finer philosophical points, and focus on the issues at hand.
I think its absolutely wrong to forcibly educe the puffing defense mechanism out of a puffer. To do so, is to exploit a terrified animal for ones personal amusement. Puffing is not a party trick; most often it is a signal that a puffer is really frightened. When a puffer does opt to inflate, it is usually because he feels he has no other option. Usually, when a puffer feels threatened, they will first attempt to swim away.
I have only kept porcupine puffers (Diodon holocanthus). I lack personal experience will spiny box fishes. However, I can't help feeling sad imagining a frantic puffer being pursued by some person who wants a cheap laugh. I have never heard of nor seen, a puffer split open in reaction to stress as Shakky described, but I do know that a puffer can die as a result of puffing. If a puffer inhales air upon puffing, they can certainly die.
Putting aside the fact that I don't condone this sort of treatment under any circumstances, I find it especially poor timing to stress a newly acquired puffer. Puffers are notorious for developing ich, and other illnesses, while adapting to new tanks.
Being that puffers are such poor adapters, the tank introduction/transitional period has got to be THE WORST time to expose a puffer to unneccessary stress. Puffers are in a delicate state of being their first month in a new tank, and you should really be focusing on preventing illness, not inventing ways to onset illness.
As long as I'm here I'd like to tell everyone about my puffer; Hoss. Hoss is an adolescent now. We've owned Hoss for 2 1/2 years. He was 2 inches long when we purchased him; he is 6 1/2 inches long now. Hoss eats a varied diet, the foundation of which is mysis and krill, but is supplemented with raw grocery store treats such as squid, scallop meat, clam, oyster, etc.
Hoss lives in our 125 gallon Reef tank. Hoss lives with a large variety of LPS,SPS and softies. A 125 is a good MINIMUM tank size for an adult porcupine puffer, which will be between 10-12 inches in length and 3-4 inches across at the head when full grown. In a year, we are upgrading the tank, and hope that Hoss will be able to live out the rest of his life in a 200-300 gallon.
Someone said earlier that puffers bite? I'm not sure about the temperments of spiny box fishes or dog faced puffers, but Hoss doesn't bite. I have my hand in the tank at least an hour a day, and Hoss has never bitten me, not in his whole life. I can understand, if a puffer spent their whole life being pinched, how they might be inclined to act aggressively though. Hoss is handfed twice a day, and doesn't even flinch when we run our fingers along his back. Perhaps it is flaky to say so, but in some way, I think Hoss trusts us. I think an abused puffer would be much more inclined to bite his owner.
Hoss shares his tank with a coral beauty, a 4-line wrasse, an arch-eye hawk-fish, and two chromis. Hoss has never eaten another fish. In my estimation, he is my least aggressive fish. That 4 line wrasse is a trouble maker.
Hoss also lives with a variety of inverts including several peppermint shrimp, two cleaner shrimp, innumerable hermits, many turbos and astrea, and a couple of emerald crabs. Hoss has devoured a few hemits in his time, but mostly he ignores them. He doesn't seem interested in snails, although he does have a taste for nassarius. I've stopped buying nassarius now, I learned my lesson. Hoss has never eaten a shrimp. I know it would be natural for him to consume shrimp in the wild, but he doesn't seem interested in captivity. In fact, the cleaner duo often work Hoss over at nap time. A few pictures for you...
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics April/April 2003 098.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics April/April 2003 102.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20104.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20107.jpg
Here are a few pictures of Hoss napping.
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20164.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20161.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20163.jpg
Tell me, does that look like an animal that would be fun to terrorize?
Finally, I'd like to talk about the puffing mechanism. To me it would be horrific to try and force this reaction, but luckily, you don't have to force a thing. Just wait long enough, and one day, your puffer will do it spontaneously. Our puffer inflates about once a month, seemingly for no reason. Hoss is by far the biggest predator in the tank, so I doubt he feels threatened by his tank mates. Usually, we'll be watching television about 10 feet away from the tank, and we'll look over and see an inflated Hoss. He usually only stays inflated for under a minute, but it is a wonder to watch. We hypothesize about the motive for Hoss' seemingly pointless puffing. Your guess is as good as ours.
Here is a sequence of pictures taken on a day when Hoss inflated and we were lucky enough to have the digital camera on hand. Once again, please never attempt to force this reaction out of your puffer, just wait long enough, and it will happen on its own.
The first two pictures show an already inflated Hoss...
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20153.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20154.jpg
These next couple of pictures show the deflation process...
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20155.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20156.jpg
http://www.thenerdary.com/images/Pics%2 ... %20157.jpg
Thank you for tolerating my longwinded response guys. I felt it neccessary to say my piece on this subject. I hope for less emotional subject matter in my future reefs.org contributions.
-Meg
President of the West Michigan Marine Aquarium Club
Member of Team RC
Zeppelin-
Welcome to Reefs.org!
I respect your opinion, and appreciate your well articulated response. I am surprised that this thread has received so much attention that references were made to it on reefcentral.
I understand your position, and can respect that someone that obviously loves these fish as much as you do would be disturbed by the thought of doing something that might cause them harm.
What bothers me, however is this statement:
If you really love these fish as much as you do, why own them in the first place? I would think that you would object to their collection and importation for the aquarium trade altogether seeing as they are such poor adapters.
When I was a child we used to raise rabbits for food. We were very poor as my father had just come back from Vietnam and was trying to raise three kids and go to college at the same time. We sold the rabbits as pets, as meat and ate them ourselves. You would not imagine the response I would get from some of my friends when they found out, especially those that had rabbits as pets. They had no problem munching on fried chicken, though.
The issue is that when you get an emotional attachment to a pet, your point of view changes, and you begin to see that type of animal different from others.
What I object to in this thread is the righteous indignation from individuals who have no room to judge someone else. I do not object to someone saying something to the effect of "I love my pufferfish and personally would never intentionally make it puff up because I think it causes the animal undue stress." What I do object to is statements that judge. None of us are in any position to judge or condemn another reefer.
The statement "I think its absolutely wrong to forcibly educe the puffing defense mechanism out of a puffer. " bothers me. What do you mean by wrong? God does not like it? It is against the law? or it is against your own personal ethics?
I think it very odd that so many people think it is "wrong" to occasionally pinch a fish to ilicit a defensive response yet do not think it is "wrong" to take so many fish out of their natural habitat for their own enjoyment.
On the other hand, I appreciate your post and your opinion. Healthy disagreement is key to communication and mutual growth, IMO. The photos you posted were amazing, and educational. It was also nice to hear how much you really like and love your fish. You make me want one!
FWIW, personally if I did own a puffer I seriously doubt that I would try to ilicit the response; stressing a very expensive fish does not apeal to me personally.
Welcome to Reefs.org!
I respect your opinion, and appreciate your well articulated response. I am surprised that this thread has received so much attention that references were made to it on reefcentral.
I understand your position, and can respect that someone that obviously loves these fish as much as you do would be disturbed by the thought of doing something that might cause them harm.
What bothers me, however is this statement:
If you really love these fish as much as you do, why own them in the first place? I would think that you would object to their collection and importation for the aquarium trade altogether seeing as they are such poor adapters.
When I was a child we used to raise rabbits for food. We were very poor as my father had just come back from Vietnam and was trying to raise three kids and go to college at the same time. We sold the rabbits as pets, as meat and ate them ourselves. You would not imagine the response I would get from some of my friends when they found out, especially those that had rabbits as pets. They had no problem munching on fried chicken, though.
The issue is that when you get an emotional attachment to a pet, your point of view changes, and you begin to see that type of animal different from others.
What I object to in this thread is the righteous indignation from individuals who have no room to judge someone else. I do not object to someone saying something to the effect of "I love my pufferfish and personally would never intentionally make it puff up because I think it causes the animal undue stress." What I do object to is statements that judge. None of us are in any position to judge or condemn another reefer.
The statement "I think its absolutely wrong to forcibly educe the puffing defense mechanism out of a puffer. " bothers me. What do you mean by wrong? God does not like it? It is against the law? or it is against your own personal ethics?
I think it very odd that so many people think it is "wrong" to occasionally pinch a fish to ilicit a defensive response yet do not think it is "wrong" to take so many fish out of their natural habitat for their own enjoyment.
On the other hand, I appreciate your post and your opinion. Healthy disagreement is key to communication and mutual growth, IMO. The photos you posted were amazing, and educational. It was also nice to hear how much you really like and love your fish. You make me want one!
FWIW, personally if I did own a puffer I seriously doubt that I would try to ilicit the response; stressing a very expensive fish does not apeal to me personally.
Esmithii- I'm not going to wax philosophical over this issue. Asking me to define "wrong" for you, is just too reminiscent of my freshman philosophy professor asking the class to define "truth". That discussion lasted all semester. I can foresee this discussion lasting at least that long. There are a hundred reasons I can name, that people shouldn't pinch their puffers. There seems to be only one reason in favor of pinching a puffer; personal entertainment. I realize we keep our tanks for personal entertainment, but overtly hurting an animal is a little different then keeping a tank.
When a person begins a reef tank, usually their intentions are to construct a good home for the animals of their choosing, to grow something, to enjoy watching as their hard work becomes something beautiful. Other people, I'm sorry to say, liken fish tanks to petre dishes. They think that the animals contained within are just specimens, and good subjects for personal experiments in morbid curiosity. Most people want a positive response from their reef tanks. Most people don't use violence to illicit negative responses from animals.
I do see my pets differently from other types of animals. I also see certain people, certain pet owners, as different from others. There are those people with the best intentions, and those people with selfish and hurtful intentions. It was a fact of life that you had to eat rabbits as a child. These people don’t have to hurt these fish, they just want to.
-Meg
When a person begins a reef tank, usually their intentions are to construct a good home for the animals of their choosing, to grow something, to enjoy watching as their hard work becomes something beautiful. Other people, I'm sorry to say, liken fish tanks to petre dishes. They think that the animals contained within are just specimens, and good subjects for personal experiments in morbid curiosity. Most people want a positive response from their reef tanks. Most people don't use violence to illicit negative responses from animals.
I do see my pets differently from other types of animals. I also see certain people, certain pet owners, as different from others. There are those people with the best intentions, and those people with selfish and hurtful intentions. It was a fact of life that you had to eat rabbits as a child. These people don’t have to hurt these fish, they just want to.
-Meg
Meg,
Welcome to reefs.org!
Certain words and descriptions of the puffer-puffing just don't belong in the discussion, in my opinion. The words create a "straw argument" as has been mentioned, and are obviously used to elicit an emotional response and cause the reader to imagine terrible outcomes.
The words that have been used in this thread by yourself and others include violence, morbid, selfish, hurtful, killing, exploit, terrified, frightened, threatened, frantic, pursued, horrific, torture, attacked, suffering, tormentented(sp), molested, harassing and die.
None of these words seem to properly describe the scene in which, on a handful of occasions, I have caused a puffer to puff by gently pinching its skin. They have all immediately deflated after releasing the gentle pinch. Further, they immediately went on doing whatever they were doing before they puffed - probably looking for food, which is what they always seem to be doing. IOW, they don't act as if they were stressed or scared by the event.
Other than the mention by Sharkky, I've never in 23 years in the aquarium business known of a puffer that died from puffing. I think it's mostly an urban legend (aquarist's legend). But I understand the human desire to testify in public forums, especially on topics that seem to suggest a "moral" or "ethical" issue.
Again I will say that nobody should do this to a puffer. But I was prompted to explain exactly how to do it because of Reef_Monkey's original posting where he said, "I tried to chase him in the tank but it didn't work..."
Now, I do realize that chasing a puffer around the tank with a net or a hand is stressful and probably will scare all the other fish as well. The person might just keep chasing them thinking that eventually they will puff. The thing is...I have learned that this will only rarely cause the puffer to puff. Even just touching or prodding them won't hardly do it. The gentle pinch is the trick!
My intent was to offer the most humane and effective way to accomplish something that shouldn't be done in the first place.
Welcome to reefs.org!
Certain words and descriptions of the puffer-puffing just don't belong in the discussion, in my opinion. The words create a "straw argument" as has been mentioned, and are obviously used to elicit an emotional response and cause the reader to imagine terrible outcomes.
The words that have been used in this thread by yourself and others include violence, morbid, selfish, hurtful, killing, exploit, terrified, frightened, threatened, frantic, pursued, horrific, torture, attacked, suffering, tormentented(sp), molested, harassing and die.
None of these words seem to properly describe the scene in which, on a handful of occasions, I have caused a puffer to puff by gently pinching its skin. They have all immediately deflated after releasing the gentle pinch. Further, they immediately went on doing whatever they were doing before they puffed - probably looking for food, which is what they always seem to be doing. IOW, they don't act as if they were stressed or scared by the event.
Other than the mention by Sharkky, I've never in 23 years in the aquarium business known of a puffer that died from puffing. I think it's mostly an urban legend (aquarist's legend). But I understand the human desire to testify in public forums, especially on topics that seem to suggest a "moral" or "ethical" issue.
Again I will say that nobody should do this to a puffer. But I was prompted to explain exactly how to do it because of Reef_Monkey's original posting where he said, "I tried to chase him in the tank but it didn't work..."
Now, I do realize that chasing a puffer around the tank with a net or a hand is stressful and probably will scare all the other fish as well. The person might just keep chasing them thinking that eventually they will puff. The thing is...I have learned that this will only rarely cause the puffer to puff. Even just touching or prodding them won't hardly do it. The gentle pinch is the trick!
My intent was to offer the most humane and effective way to accomplish something that shouldn't be done in the first place.
John and Esmithii-Thank you for the welcome
I do understand where you are coming from John. I'm sorry if I put you on defense. After all, you have a great many more years of experience then myself. I just didn't care for the pinching idea at all, don't think I ever will. Perhaps it is a better alternative to chasing a puffer, but I still can't imagine ever carrying that idea out.
Earlier when you were describing your pinching method, you cautioned people to be careful, as puffers will attempt to bite when you pinch them. Being that my puffer has never bitten me, and I've touched him a great many times, why would the puffers you have experience with attempt to bite you? They probably tried to bite you, because pinching hurts. Just now, you said that the puffers you've pinched never seemed stressed or scared, but what is biting except a primal reaction to stress?
-Meg
I do understand where you are coming from John. I'm sorry if I put you on defense. After all, you have a great many more years of experience then myself. I just didn't care for the pinching idea at all, don't think I ever will. Perhaps it is a better alternative to chasing a puffer, but I still can't imagine ever carrying that idea out.
Earlier when you were describing your pinching method, you cautioned people to be careful, as puffers will attempt to bite when you pinch them. Being that my puffer has never bitten me, and I've touched him a great many times, why would the puffers you have experience with attempt to bite you? They probably tried to bite you, because pinching hurts. Just now, you said that the puffers you've pinched never seemed stressed or scared, but what is biting except a primal reaction to stress?
-Meg
I find that fish have different characteristics than another of the same species. Take dogs for example, all may be capable of biting, but do all dogs bite..I do not think so. But there are some dogs out there that do bite. This is one of those topics where this is no right or wrong answere. It all comes down to ones belief.
People keep reef tanks for personal entertainment. Any other rationalization is just that, a rationalization.
If we are keeping animals for our personal enjoyment, is getting a puffer to puff up once and a while (after it has setteled into the tank) for the same reason really such a big deal?
In this thread it has been noted that they puff up by themselves every now and then, so I have difficulty believing that the action is necessarily as stressful as some would make it seem. I would guess it isn't any more stressful then a frilled lizard doing its thing.
Anyone have any data that shows the puffing is detrimental to the puffer, or are we all just guessing? :wink:
If we are keeping animals for our personal enjoyment, is getting a puffer to puff up once and a while (after it has setteled into the tank) for the same reason really such a big deal?
In this thread it has been noted that they puff up by themselves every now and then, so I have difficulty believing that the action is necessarily as stressful as some would make it seem. I would guess it isn't any more stressful then a frilled lizard doing its thing.
Anyone have any data that shows the puffing is detrimental to the puffer, or are we all just guessing? :wink:
IMO you are again questioning motives. "overtly hurting" implies intent. Personally I don't believe pinching the fish lightly is "overtly hurting it." I had a cat once that if you gently scratched it in a certain spot on its back it would begin ferverently licking its own stomache. I would do this to show company- they were usually impressed by the reaction. Is that "wrong" in your mind?
surely you are not inferring that John has abused his fish to the point it is violent, are you? I know of several people who have had puffers who were prone to biting, and none of those puffers had ever been pinched (to my knowledge.)
My point exactly.
Well put. I challenge anyone who feels that pinching the puffer is "wrong" to make an argument that is not punctuated with such terms that are intended to ilicit emotional responses rather than logical conclucions. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Ernie
[/quote]
:mrgreen:
A frilled lizard display is considerably more than raising a few spines. It involves hissing, spreading and cloring the fill, running on its hind feet for a long distance and voiding its bladder. It is a reaction to threat whose exercise spends energy, uses fluids the animal needs, and can leave the animal open to attack while it recovers.
And in captivity, it learns not to do it too often.
Seems pretty anaolgous to a puffer puffing to me.
In any case, aren't both animals 'designed' to do their things? And since the main problem with such displays seems to be recovery time - in capitivity the recovery time is not prone to predation and food and space are readily available to get the animal back to normal - I am having a hard time believing that getting them to display once and awhile is problematic.
A frilled lizard display is considerably more than raising a few spines. It involves hissing, spreading and cloring the fill, running on its hind feet for a long distance and voiding its bladder. It is a reaction to threat whose exercise spends energy, uses fluids the animal needs, and can leave the animal open to attack while it recovers.
And in captivity, it learns not to do it too often.
Seems pretty anaolgous to a puffer puffing to me.
In any case, aren't both animals 'designed' to do their things? And since the main problem with such displays seems to be recovery time - in capitivity the recovery time is not prone to predation and food and space are readily available to get the animal back to normal - I am having a hard time believing that getting them to display once and awhile is problematic.
My position is as someone has already stated. Intentionally causing a defensive reaction in a pet for your own pleasure is different than keeping a pet in as ideal an environment as possible. I really do feel sorry for those that can't see the difference. It's a little disturbing frankly. Yes, it's effecting them by keeping them as pets, but we do live on the same planet, and we will effect each other in some way as long as we do. Don't forget that in some ways we are benfitting them by keeping them as pets.
The idea is to keep that effect as postive as possible. Intentionally illiciting a defensive response hardly falls into that category, IMO.
PS> I still don't see how you can compare the frilly lizard reactions. Running around and peeing isn't exactly known to be fatal in most species (or even out of the ordinary in some). However, I'll concede the point as it is moot anyway because I agree that ut does fall into the same category as I describe above.
The idea is to keep that effect as postive as possible. Intentionally illiciting a defensive response hardly falls into that category, IMO.
PS> I still don't see how you can compare the frilly lizard reactions. Running around and peeing isn't exactly known to be fatal in most species (or even out of the ordinary in some).
However, I'll concede the point as it is moot anyway because I agree that ut does fall into the same category as I describe above.saltyzoo":1v9jh475 said:I still don't see how you can compare the frilly lizard reactions. Running around and peeing isn't exactly known to be fatal in most species (or even out of the ordinary in some).
Are you implying that a puffer inflating is often fatal? That is pure bunk.
None of us knows how it feels to be a pufferfish inflating ourselvse, so we really don't know how uncomfortable it is or isn't. I don't think anyone here has said anything that convinces me that it is such a negative experience for the puffer. As humans, getting the adrenaline going every now and then has some positive medical benefits, and is pleasurable for a certain percentage of the population. Do you know conclusively that it is not beneficial for the animal to puff up regularly anyway?
Ernie
I have yet to see a puffer die from doing what comes naturally. I have handled hundreds (if not thousands) of these animals, and have found them to be highly idiosyncratic (anthropomorphizing? Maybe so), pugnacious to the Nth degree, and HARDY. I have had many puffers try to bite me. Not all, but a not insignificant number nonetheless. It is entirely incorrect to insinuate or assume that I was doing something to make them "want" to bite me. I have never intentionally made a puffer puff, but neither have I "freaked out" when they do what comes so naturally to them. Also, I have yet to have a chase a puffer around the tank, as the norm is that they are usually following me!
As I stated earlier, I have never seen, personally, a puffer split itself open, but I have, in my capacity as a crewmember of WWM, seen one email from a very distraught person whose puffer did indeed split (well, according to this person..it seemed honest enough anyway). It did not live, but the point is that no one really knew what to do because this event is so rare. Again, I really want to emphasize that I have found these animals to be hardy (almost beyond compare) and tolerant.
Um...now, I like to trick my dog by hiding and jumping out to say "BOO!" (haven't been successful yet, she always knows I'm there and just barks at me and wags her tail) and sneak up on our cat (again, unsuccessful), but is anyone going to say that it is either more acceptable because they're domesticated, or that I am completely sick because I'm playing in a manner with them that other dogs and cats would as well?
As I stated earlier, I have never seen, personally, a puffer split itself open, but I have, in my capacity as a crewmember of WWM, seen one email from a very distraught person whose puffer did indeed split (well, according to this person..it seemed honest enough anyway). It did not live, but the point is that no one really knew what to do because this event is so rare. Again, I really want to emphasize that I have found these animals to be hardy (almost beyond compare) and tolerant.
Um...now, I like to trick my dog by hiding and jumping out to say "BOO!" (haven't been successful yet, she always knows I'm there and just barks at me and wags her tail) and sneak up on our cat (again, unsuccessful), but is anyone going to say that it is either more acceptable because they're domesticated, or that I am completely sick because I'm playing in a manner with them that other dogs and cats would as well?
No I didn't intend to imply that it is fatal. I intended to imply that it's a completely unnecessary, and potentially harmfull (Not the distinct lack of the usage of the word fatal) activity.
Have you ever given birth or passed a kidney stone? Seems likely the "puffing" could have similar physiological impacts. I don't have proof, but it certainly seems like a good idea to avoid it just in case.
Personally, I will continue to offer my animals the best environment possible and not attempt to induce potentially harmful defense mechanisms. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps there is no effect at all. I choose to err on the side of caution and avoid potentially torturing an animal.
Have you ever given birth or passed a kidney stone? Seems likely the "puffing" could have similar physiological impacts. I don't have proof, but it certainly seems like a good idea to avoid it just in case.
Personally, I will continue to offer my animals the best environment possible and not attempt to induce potentially harmful defense mechanisms. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps there is no effect at all. I choose to err on the side of caution and avoid potentially torturing an animal.
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