Tang as a "50g cleaner package" check it out

[naesco]

Rover

I would expect your comment.
Of course you would like to see as many tangs sold in any size tank as possible.

Do you seriously justify one tang in a 30 gallon.

You are a LFS owner are you not?

If you comment on threads like this in the many you have, IMO you should identify yourself as such so all of us know.

 

[naesco]

I am off to the dentist now.
:twisted: When I get back I might be a little emotional.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

James,
Greg's response can, and should, be interpreted as he does not see anything wrong with the recommendations of this vendor.
Keeping a small Zebrasoma species tang in a 50-gallon reef aquarium is a gray area, and can be accepted and seen as reasonable by many reefers. This is not what the vendor involved recommended in the majority of their packages.
I think you are wrong in guessing the intension of Greg. He did state that he would not keep certain tang in certain size tank in a later post in this thread. I cannot think of the reason for him to posted as above. However, I think that Greg is a well-respected aquarist and he did not use good judgment in posting in this thread as above.
Minh Nguyen

 

[GSchiemer]

Frankly Greg, I don't understand your response. You should know better. I copy these two recomendations directly from one of their special for a 50 g tank. This is unresponsible vendor in my opinion.
Greg, How can you agree with this?

Ming,

I guess you didn't read my TWO posts above regarding tank sizes, Naso tangs, etc. I don't agree with this. Never said that I did.

Greg

 

[GSchiemer]

I agree with Greg here. IMO I dont think its impossible of to keep a small tang happy and healthy in a tank around 50 gal. Ive had a few in my tanks over the years(all under 65 gal) With few problems. I recently got rid of my yellow tang and I regret it. Im looking for another one but Im being very selective. Hey Greg any suggestions on a species?

Scott-

Scott,

If it were my aquarium, I'd consider a small Purple Tang and a small Chevron Tang. They're both tough good-looking fish, and should get along.

Greg

 

[GSchiemer]

James,
Greg's response can, and should, be interpreted as he does not see anything wrong with the recommendations of this vendor.
Keeping a small Zebrasoma species tang in a 50-gallon reef aquarium is a gray area, and can be accepted and seen as reasonable by many reefers. This is not what the vendor involved recommended in the majority of their packages.
I think you are wrong in guessing the intension of Greg. He did state that he would not keep certain tang in certain size tank in a later post in this thread. I cannot think of the reason for him to posted as above. However, I think that Greg is a well-respected aquarist and he did not use good judgment in posting in this thread as above.
Minh Nguyen

Ming,

Don't interpret my responses; READ what I wrote. There's nothing to guess at. I NEVER said that I agreed with the recommendations of this vendor. I don't. I made that very clear. The title of the post is "Tang as a "50g cleaner package"." I originally responded to that statement. I then elaborated in the post copied below so that no one would have to GUESS at what I was saying. Relax and take off your tang police uniform for the evening

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:58 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's difficult to make generalizations about tangs. Personally, the smallest aquarium that I would consider acceptable for a juvenile Zebrasoma tang or Ctenochaetus tang is 50 gallons. And I'm assuming that this is a well-maintained aquarium with adequate systems for the export of organic waste.

IMO, and IME, I wouldn't keep any Acanthurus species in an aquarium less than 4 feet in length and 75 gallons in volume. Naso tangs need 6 feet in length and 125 gallons. These are just MINIMUM recommendations. Bigger is always better!

Here's an example of my thinking: I love Naso tangs, but I won't purchase one, even though one of my reef aquariums is 10 feet in length and has a water volume in excess of 750 gallons. In addition to swimming space, these fish require a LOT of food just to maintain their body weight. It puts a tremendous strain on any system. I might consider a Naso tang if it were the only fish in my aquarium, but that would get boring.

So, I don't think we're too far apart on our thinking.

 

[naesco]

It is right and just that we all be tang police with regard to this totally outrageous advertisement.

Since when are tangs cleaners? Algae is causes by poor water conditions, over feeding, newly established tanks etc. Hermits and snails are cleaners.

James, Greg I don't care what your post is. This is the issue and you need to address it.
These birds are recommending for example a sailfin and a yellow and a algae blennie to 'clean' a 50. Does anyone on this board accept that?

Who here has ever seen a kole eat calcareous algae? They SUCK film algae. Calcareous algae would tear their mouth parts and therein cause infection.

We all must unite to stop this kind of stuff permeateing our hobby.
We owe it to our new members to stand up against what is clearly, clearly wrong. Period.

 

[Anonymous]

No need to get snide Naesco, but I stand by my statement. I don't think those two tangs would outgrow a 4 foot tank. But that is the minimum. And yes I do own a shop. And to be honest, I'd much rather sell people huge tanks to house two tangs than sell multiple tangs over and over to the same people. But to tell you the truth, that's not what happens. If properly set up those tangs would make wonderful critters for a four foot tank, my customer would be really happy and so would I. So please chill with the accusatory comments. I was in no way commenting on the ethics of that particular clean up package. As a general rule I don't sell clean up packages, I think most of them are way over done. My comments were strictly regarding keeping those two tanks in a four foot tank.

Of course you would like to see as many tangs sold in any size tank as possible.

Inflammatory rhetoric.

Do you seriously justify one tang in a 30 gallon.

I don't recall ever mentioning a 30 gallon tank.

You are a LFS owner are you not?

Absolutely. And with lots of successful customers. Thanks for asking.

I think your points would come across much better if you weren't so shrill about them. Opinions are always welcome, preaching is not.
[/quote]

 

[JeremyR]

These kind of discussions aren't helpful at all. Screaming and yelling is going to be about as successful as spraypainting fur coats.

 

[naesco]

Rover have you read the ad?
These birdbrains are recommending tangs as cleaners. For example they recommend a sailfin and a yellow tang for a 50 in one package and a naso and a yellow tang in another.
I am reacting to your comment that they probably won't outgrow a 50galllon. Do you still stand by that comment?

Jeremy spraypainting fur coats almost destroyed the fur industry in Canda. It took 15 years for them to start recovering.
What do you suggest we do.

 

[Anonymous]

These birdbrains are recommending tangs as cleaners. For example they recommend a sailfin and a yellow tang for a 50 in one package and a naso and a yellow tang in another.

Yes I did. I don't really like the idea of cleaner packages but I don't really see anything wrong with the package as it stands. I do disagree on the Naso, they need at least 6 feet and they do eat a lot. But a yellow and a hippo in a 55 I don't have a problem with. The snails and hermits are for the micro algae and the tangs are for the macro I would imagine. We can debate the effectiveness of the cleaner package if you like but I see nothing wrong with keeping that particular group of critters in that size tank.

I am reacting to your comment that they probably won't outgrow a 50galllon. Do you still stand by that comment?

Yes.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

Greg,
How can one read but not interpret what one read?
Mouse was bringing attention to all these inappropriate recommendations regarding these clean-up packages from this vendor. Reading through these recommendations, I feel that lots of them are clearly inappropriate. You on the other hand, stated that "Frankly, I don't understand the ‘outrage’ here"
You did not mention anything about the title of Mouse's post.
That is what my response was all about.
I know that you would not agree with the vendor about keeping Sailfin or Naso in a 50 g tank. Just did not understand why you posted as you did. Your later post clarify your though somewhat.
Reading you first post only, I am sure you see my point. I was certainly outrage at this despicable vendor recommendation.
I am glad that while you did not feel as strongly as I did, at least you disagree with this vendor on the Naso in a 50 g tank. While you did not mention Sailfin tang, I am sure that you would agree that Sailfin tang is clearly not “a small Zebrasoma species tang.”
Peace and Cheers
Minh Nguyen

 

[jamesw]

I don't think anyone here is condoning that particular vendor's cleaner package.

Cheers
James

 

[Mouse]

can o worms anyone

My post on this matter was two fold, firstly to raise the discussion regarding Tangs, once again, just because i feel its important due to the poularity of these fish. Id place them a close second to Clowns as noob inhabitants. I also think its important that people see that no all vendors are as responsible as one might hope.

In direct response to the problem im going to send a link to this thread to the vendor, ill be interested to see what they come up with. Hopefully not a law suit. :wink:

 

[Mouse]

Ok heres the letter, lets hope we get a nice reply, and anchofish man if your reading this, we do expect one. :wink:

Dear Anchofish guys & galls,

please take the time to review our discussion regarding ethical practices in the long term maintenance of Tangs in captive reef systems. I think you will see from the posts herein that the overwhelming majority of our responsible reefkeepers disagree with your stocking suggestions regarding the cleaner packages reccomended by your site. It is my recomendation that all tangs be removed from your cleaner package for aquariua less than 100G, and that Nasu Tangs be removed from lists pertaining to anything less than 200G. We beleave our suggestions to be in the best intrests of the tangs, and of the hobby, and also ultimately yourslefs as a responsible marine vendor.

the following URL should contain a link to the forementioned thread.

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... sc&start=0

this is a topic that has been discussed many times, over and over, ad nausiem. And we truly beleave that this is a true and honest reflection of the ethics and morality held by those who would strive to be considered concientious reef keepers. It would be wonderfull if you could join us to promote this ethical practice.

many thanks,

mouse

ill get back and post the response if i get one.

 

[Anonymous]

It looks like a marketing tool to sell more products.

To bad these idiots do not view their product as animals and regardless of what size anyone feels is appropriate, they should have known that a educated aquarist reads recommendations from several books that make all this look like a sick joke.

I have never purchased from them and I never will now.

It is a shame that people who deal in the trade of live animals do not take their roles more serious.

What do you expect when so many view Coral the same way they would a pretty perennial flower.

And still there are those who would say this trade has no impact on natural reefs....what a shame.

Their 30-gallon set up speaks volumes for this company and those who would defend it.

 

[dizzy]

While you did not mention Sailfin tang, I am sure that you would agree that Sailfin tang is clearly not “a small Zebrasoma species tang.”
Peace and Cheers
Minh Nguyen

Minh,
There are clearly a lot of things about marine fishkeeping that are not perfecty understood. I often get the sense that the people who have the strongest emotions about tang keeping are people who have very little experience in actually keeping them, present company excluded. In the thread titled "Tale of three purple tangs". I document the case of three purple tags that have not grown much in 6-8 years, despite being kept in fairly large tanks. I would like to add that I also have a desjardini tang in the 160-gallon cylinder that has not grown incredibly fast either. Perhaps an 1" to 1.5" in 6-years. I'm not proud of the slow growth rates. All I'm saying is the fish look normal.

Believe me in 18-years as a retailer I have seen plenty of fish brought in by people that did not look normal. Ragged fins, color loss, bent backs, bent fins, sores, LLE, and huge eyes compared to the rest of the body. Mostly stuff like pacu, oscars, arrowanas, and cichlids. I can tell you with 100% certainty that my slow growing tangs look normal to me. They eat very well and they act normally. Well they do beg and I guess that would be considered acting normal for fish that are fed by man. They can and do swim laps in the cylinder tanks. They do not seem more prone to disease either.

By all means provide your fish with biggest aquarium practical. Treat your fish with the care and respect they deserve. Over on the industry forum someone linked to a scientific study that suggested that fish do not have the capability of feeling pain. I'm going to go out on the limb here and suggest that I doubt they have emotions either. Let's not assume that we know what all the rules need to be just yet. Let's listen to the facts and then try to make rational evaluations based on the evidence. Let's try to expand our knowledge of the way things really are, and not just how we would like them to be.

Mouse I think it would help to show your sincerity if you signed your real name to your letter.

 

[GSchiemer]

It is right and just that we all be tang police with regard to this totally outrageous advertisement.

Since when are tangs cleaners? Algae is causes by poor water conditions, over feeding, newly established tanks etc. Hermits and snails are cleaners.

James, Greg I don't care what your post is. This is the issue and you need to address it.
These birds are recommending for example a sailfin and a yellow and a algae blennie to 'clean' a 50. Does anyone on this board accept that?

Who here has ever seen a kole eat calcareous algae? They SUCK film algae. Calcareous algae would tear their mouth parts and therein cause infection.

We all must unite to stop this kind of stuff permeateing our hobby.
We owe it to our new members to stand up against what is clearly, clearly wrong. Period.

I've said three times now in this thread that I don't agree with the recommendations of this vendor. One of the points of these forums is to educate hobbyists. Hopefully they will read the opinions of us "experts" and avoid this vendor. That's how I "addressed it." I don't plan to picket in front of the store though

Regarding the specific comment about a

sailfin and a yellow and a algae blennie to 'clean' a 50

, personally I wouldn't recommend two Zebrasoma tangs for a 50 gallon aquarium, especially Z. veliferum or Z. desjardinii, which get very large. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to keep an algae blennie (Salarias fasciatus) and a juvenile yellow tang (Z. flavescens) in a 50 gallon aquarium. As for Naso tangs, they don't belong in any of these "packages," or in aquariums less than 6 feet in length.

I don't agree with selling tangs as "cleanup packages" because it's not the correct way to address algae problems. In many cases, the additional bioload of these large active fish outweighs any benefit they might have as algae consumers.

Is this satisfactory?

Greg

 

[GSchiemer]

Just did not understand why you posted as you did. Your later post clarify your though somewhat.

Minh,

As I said, my first post related specifically to the question raised in the title of the thread (yellow tang in 50 gallon aquarium for algae control), which I still don't feel is "outrageuos." After checking out the web site, I made additional comments. If you merge all of my comments, you'll get a better idea of my position on tangs.

BTW, why does everyone get worked up about tangs? IMO, they're a minor issue compared to many other species. It's more common to see large triggers, angelfish, eels, groupers, sharks, rays, look-downs, batfish and similar species crammed into tiny aquariums. Some of these fish grow very large, very quickly and have no place in the average home aquarium.

Greg

 

[GSchiemer]

While you did not mention Sailfin tang, I am sure that you would agree that Sailfin tang is clearly not “a small Zebrasoma species tang.”
Peace and Cheers
Minh Nguyen

Minh,
There are clearly a lot of things about marine fishkeeping that are not perfecty understood. I often get the sense that the people who have the strongest emotions about tang keeping are people who have very little experience in actually keeping them, present company excluded. In the thread titled "Tale of three purple tangs". I document the case of three purple tags that have not grown much in 6-8 years, despite being kept in fairly large tanks. I would like to add that I also have a desjardini tang in the 160-gallon cylinder that has not grown incredibly fast either. Perhaps an 1" to 1.5" in 6-years. I'm not proud of the slow growth rates. All I'm saying is the fish look normal.

Believe me in 18-years as a retailer I have seen plenty of fish brought in by people that did not look normal. Ragged fins, color loss, bent backs, bent fins, sores, LLE, and huge eyes compared to the rest of the body. Mostly stuff like pacu, oscars, arrowanas, and cichlids. I can tell you with 100% certainty that my slow growing tangs look normal to me. They eat very well and they act normally. Well they do beg and I guess that would be considered acting normal for fish that are fed by man. They can and do swim laps in the cylinder tanks. They do not seem more prone to disease either.

By all means provide your fish with biggest aquarium practical. Treat your fish with the care and respect they deserve. Over on the industry forum someone linked to a scientific study that suggested that fish do not have the capability of feeling pain. I'm going to go out on the limb here and suggest that I doubt they have emotions either. Let's not assume that we know what all the rules need to be just yet. Let's listen to the facts and then try to make rational evaluations based on the evidence. Let's try to expand our knowledge of the way things really are, and not just how we would like them to be.

Mouse I think it would help to show your sincerity if you signed your real name to your letter.

Mitch,

Well said.

I've had similar experiences with Zebrasoma tangs and growth rates. They appear to grow quickly from the one-inch to the four-inch size, but then the growth rate slows dramatically. I have a purple and sailfin tang in excess of 8 years and they are pictures of health, but they haven't grown appreciably in the past five years. OTOH, I've had to give away two Paracanthurus hepatus tangs over that same period of time that got too large for my 500 gallon reef aquarium. They grow like weeds. I have one of the captive-raised specimens now that has grown from the size of a nickel to over five inches in under two years. My chevron tang has also grown relatively quickly. I bought it as one of those cute one-inch juveniles 8 years ago. It's now the largest fish in my aquarium at 6 inches in size. All the fish are in the same aqurium and fed the same diet (lots of greens!).

I agree with your comment about using a real name. Frankly, as a business man, I wouldn't take a letter signed "mouse" seriously, especially when combined with all the mis-spellings.

Greg