My fish keep getting ick :( HELP PLEASE!

[kyabk]

GRR! MY FISH KEEP DYING! Well the nice ones do anyways. Here is the deal... About 4 months ago I set up a 90 gal reef tank. I have about 70lbs of live rock in the tank now. Whenever I put anything other than damsels in the tank they get ick within 5 days and then die. I have a few damsels in the tank now and they seem to be fine and they never die. And to top that off I have polops and mushrooms growing on my live rock which I would think would die before a fish would! My readings are as follows: Salinity is 1025, PH 8.2, Nitrates between 5-10, Nitrites 0, Ammonia 0 Calcium is about 10.

Here are some of my thoughts... I currently get my water from tap. Before I put it in my tank I pre filter it with a filter that I got from my LFS. The filter takes the PH and nitrates out of the water. The reason why I filter the water is because I found out that my tap water has VERY high nitrates. Its like a 50 or 60 reading and I didn't want to dump that into my tank. When I filter the water it completely takes the nitrates out but it also takes the PH out as well. I use PH adjuster to bring it to 8.2. Is my PH to low??? Should I get a RIO system?

I do acclimate my fish before putting them is. They way I do that is by adding some of my tank water into the bag water with the fish in it. I add about 1.5 cups every 20 minutes. and then let the fish in the tank after about 90 mins.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[hillbilly]

If you remove all fish from your tank for a
couple of months, the ich parasite will die off
if it doesn't have a host.

 

[Anonymous]

If you remove all fish from your tank for a
couple of months, the ich parasite will die off
if it doesn't have a host.

Not true, unfortunately. The cryptocaryon and oodinium parasites (both commonly and somewhat incorrectly referred to in the hobby as 'ich' or 'saltwater ich') go into a dormant stage and can easily rear their ugly heads months later.

Eradicating the parasite is basically impossible, so look for the causative factors instead. Your water parameters look okay, so it might be other things stressing the fish out. Parasitic infections are often the symptom of a larger problem. Is there stray voltage being introduced into the system, is the temperature too high or too low, is there competition or bullying among the fish in the system, etc.

My personal preference is to avoid treating parasitic infections with chemicals, even so-called 'reef-safe' stuff. First I try to ensure that my system is not one where fish would be stressed, then I use more natural methods to control parasitic infections--cleaner shrimp & the like.

 

[john f]

"so look for the causative factors instead."


Dude, the causative factor is CRYPTOCARYON. It is NOT stress, temp drops, food, etc. These can be precipitating factors, but a fish CANNOT get Ich if cryptocaryon is not present in the system.

It can be eliminated from our systems..........for good. I know 'cause I have done it.

Also, if you remove the fish from the reef tank for 6 weeks and don't add anything like live rock or corals, you have eliminated the cryptocaryon from the tank.

So now......will you re-introduce it?? Depends on how you treat new fish ( and the existing fish)

ALL fish need to be treated with hyposalinity ( do a search on this forum) for 3-4 weeks BEFORE they go into a reef tank.
Then, all corals/live rock should be quarantined for at least 2 weeks before they go into the reef.........unless you are sure they have been held in fishless systems for a couple weeks before they get to you.

I don't care what ANYONE tells you.......this WILL prevent you from getting Ich in the reef tank.

Is this too much work for most?....................probably, but not for me. I will not risk the lives of my 30+ fish in order to hastily plunk just one more into the reef without proper pre-treatment.



John

 

[Anonymous]

kyabk, welcome to reefs.org. You, my friend, have a problem. Those damsels must be removed from the display to be treated, and the tank must be left fallow for a minimum of 6 weeks, 8 are better. Also, for the time being, stop buying new fish. Set up a proper quarantine (by proper I mean sufficient container size, with filtration and heating), and use it EVERY TIME you aquire new specimens. Assuming your problem is Cryptocaryons, it can indeed be eliminated by leaving the system fallow for the 6-8 week time period. By fallow we mean fishless, as this is an obligate parasite which must find a vertebrate (fish) host to continue its life cycle. I am a proponent of freshwater dipping all new arrivals before they enter quarantine because I have found that in home and commercial settings this practice goes a very long way towards preventing this and other pathogens from taking a strong hold. Black Spot or Black Ich is one parasite that can be eliminated entirely by freshwater dipping. Amyloodinium is very difficult to treat, and seems to require freshwater dipping. As JohnF has said, please search our site, we have ich threads coming out of our.. well, you get the idea.

I'll only change one parameter, JohnF, and that is the period of quarantine. 30 days.

I do disagree on one point, though, and that is precipitating triggers. I believe that we can all agree that Cryptocaryons and Amyloodinium are constantly present in the oceans from which we get many of our specimens, and the reason(s) why they don't succumb are, logically, optimum water quality and good nutrition. They do suffer stress, so that alone doesn't seem to be sufficient. If one addresses these issues ich won't be the only pathogen the fish will be able to fight off on their own.

I'll also point out that Amyloodinium is a very difficult bugger to clean a system of.

 

[reefsnreptiles1]

Dude, the causative factor is CRYPTOCARYON. It is NOT stress, temp drops, food, etc. These can be precipitating factors, but a fish CANNOT get Ich if cryptocaryon is not present in the system.

It can be eliminated from our systems..........for good. I know 'cause I have done it.

Also, if you remove the fish from the reef tank for 6 weeks and don't add anything like live rock or corals, you have eliminated the cryptocaryon from the tank.

I agree completely.

Here is a great article on ich that clears up some of the myths:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevo ... neich.html

 

[kyabk]

Well Thank you all for your input. I think that I have learned a LOT from you all. I do have one question though... I plan on getting my damsels out of the tank but do I have to remove my live rock? I hope not because I have about 70-80lbs and I do'nt know where I would put it and keep it "live" during this healing process... Oh BTW my temp is 78.

 

[Anonymous]

Sharkky,
Ich can very easily be erradicated from the system. C. irritans CANNOT survive without completing it's life cycle, it's an obligate protozoan. None of the 3 stages, trophont, tomont, theront can go into what you call a "dormant" stage. A basic understanding of the life cycle of this will lead you to the same conclusion.
I agree completely with Seamaiden and John, they know of what they speak, and so does the research, and scientific papers that have been written on the subject.

I sound like a broken record, pretty soon I'm going to stop responding to all "ich" threads. :roll:

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Well Thank you all for your input. I think that I have learned a LOT from you all. I do have one question though... I plan on getting my damsels out of the tank but do I have to remove my live rock? I hope not because I have about 70-80lbs and I do'nt know where I would put it and keep it "live" during this healing process... Oh BTW my temp is 78.

Damsels are going to be among THE toughest fish to remove from a tank full of hidey holes such as live rock. However, the methods to get around this are myriad. You haven't exactly got a whole bunch of time to teach them to feed from the net, so nix that. If it were my tank (and I weren't much good with a net), then I'd place as much rock as possible to one side, and get a screen (fiberglass cut and framed to size) to block the tank. You can place it so the fish can get back and forth, then, luck being with you, after no more than a few hours you'll find them on the "wrong" side of the screen where you can net them up. You may have to go at it for a couple of days. One trick would be to stop feeding for a couple of days, then feed ONLY the tastiest junk food (such as live brine) on the screen side, and ONLY a teeny tiny bit. When they get on the wrong side of the screen, block entirely and net them up. Don't be discouraged if you have to take a few tries, just be persistent and you'll get the little buggers.

Then again, if you think you have the time, the best story I got was from a woman in Texas who taught her fish to feed from inside the net! It worked like a charm! There are those also who have literally gone fishing for them, if you're squeamish about removing hooks (barbless, please) then don't try that one. Lots and lots of methods.

 

[hillbilly]

If you remove all fish from your tank for a
couple of months, the ich parasite will die off
if it doesn't have a host.

I don't claim to be an expert,but this has worked for me in
the past. 2 yrs. later, it has not returned.

 

[fishfanatic2]

I guess I'm not alone!

 

[Anonymous]

:?:

 

[Aneille]

Jumping in here to ask a few questions.

After you QT your fish for approx. 30 days w/hyposalinity do you then go ahead with a FW Dip as well?

If you do FW dip how long do you leave them in the FW?

Thanks,
Kim

 

[john f]

OK,

Freshwater dips do NOT work for cryptocaryon. Period.

They do help with amyloodinium....however..........If you have fish live through a 30 day QT period there is no chance they have amyloodinium.

A short freshwater dip upon introduction to the QT may be a good idea if you are worried about oodinium. If you buy the fish from your LFS and they have held them for a few days, your chances of amyloodinium are very low. Your chances of cryptocaryon are very high under these same circumstances, and that is why each fish must be treated BEFORE placing into the reef system.


John

 

[Anonymous]

Ok....Ok..I have a better solution. Just purchase a gallon of Bangbangs Superdooper Marine Tank Sterilizer. Only costs $19.99 Kind of smells like Bleach. Don't know why? This will treat up to 500 gallons of fresh or salt water. Gets rid of Damsels too! Really! No more ich....no more nothin! Treat it and forget it! Your entire house will smell as clean as a crystal clear swimmin pool. Cash Only sent to Legton Sector 205 of the Galaxy of Boobs. Oh...yeh I almost forgot. You can also get my Tiny Eeensy Weenie Damsel Treble Hooks(line and rod included) for an additional $5.00. Now if you can not afford that...I have a special hammer for demolishing your problem without wakin up your neighbors. Just send $5.00 to above address. just tryin to help!

 

[Anonymous]

johnf, Cryptocaryons and Amyloodinium aren't the only "bugs" we have to worry about. Black spot or black ich is something that is very easily eradicated with freshwater dips, for instance.

As for when and how long, I've always dipped (only fish that have arrived in good shape, with transshipped fish) both before intro to q/t and before intro into main system. I've never timed my dips, I've always done it "by eye", watching the fish the whole time. I remove them when they "fall over".

Also, one thing to know with Amyloodinium is that it can be so persistent/resistant that if a system is infected, you will often need (in my opinion, at least) to sterilize everything that's come into contact. It's generally a good practice to sterilize nets, cups, etc., that are used between systems, but often a must with velvet.

Bangbang, you, sir, are a smart aleck.

 

[peacetypes]

do some water changes and lower you bioload

 

[john f]

"Black spot or black ich "


Agreed........

This is not all that common except on tangs. Also, if a tang does develop black spot, a few formalin baths while in QT will quickly eliminate the problem.

Also, hyposalinity can reduce black spot as well.

I see NO reason to freshwater dip a fish that has just been through 3-4 weeks of hypo. At that point, there is no chance of 1. cryptocaryon 2. amyloodinium 3. black spot 4. most gill flukes

So why subject the fish to the stress just before it enters a new ( and already stressful) tank?


John