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If Doc Ron has a thought about DSB's any different thoughts are automatically invalid because we are not real scientists.

I was being sarcastic. Bickering, in fact!

Personally, I think DSB's are more robust than most people give them credit for- and will work to a certain degree in all kinds of configurations. I would be inclined to not vacuum a DSB- but if somebody's bed seemed to be compacted for whatever reason- and they appeared to gain some increased functionality from vacuuming it, well who knows?

I have started DSB's seeded only from live rock and rock rubble, and also started with detritivore kits. In the long run they seemed superficially to have similar inhabitants and both functioned fine.
 
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dimaggio":2iq3g1i8 said:
I don't think anyone in those threads stated that the DSB don't work.

i agree with nearly, if not all, you said but this one quote.

there is even a thread named "is there a way to make a DSB work?" and the first page has reference to what a ridiculous concept that is.

i have hopped on the conversation here and there on the different threads and find that some don't care to discuss any of it in depth or consider any view but their own. don't get me wrong, there are those DSB proponents that lack in consideration too.
i also think both sides need to accept the other's methodology. this enables these boards to function for the newbies who are confused as to what kind of filtration they wanna use.

i use a DSB. it works for me and it keeps me from vacuuming my tank all the time. i can keep animals in it that are interesting to me.

i also think a bare bottom tank is a fine way to go too. hell, put a trickle filter on it if you want!
if you can walk and chew bubblegum you will probably find a way to keep a reef tank with one.

as for handing out advice on DSBs at these other boards...no, i think i will pass. it wont be worth the headache of debating and will likely confuse the person asking for advice.
let the hobby go back to the strickly Berlin method if that's the way these accredited scientists want them to. it certainly works... i prefer to do the odd thing anyway.
 

dgasmd

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Well, I guess I had not seen that particular thread you are refering to. I do apologize if I included that thread in my statement for I did not intend to. :oops: :oops:
 
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http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showt ... adid=20279

Podman said:
there is even a thread named "is there a way to make a DSB work?" and the first page has reference to what a ridiculous concept that is.

If you are referring to this thread, I don't see that at all. Actually, I see the total opposite. A discussion on figuring them out and how to make them work better. Especially for people that have set them up and might be having problems with them.
 
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Heifer":1f08rlgr said:
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20279

Podman":1f08rlgr said:
there is even a thread named "is there a way to make a DSB work?" and the first page has reference to what a ridiculous concept that is.

If you are referring to this thread, I don't see that at all. Actually, I see the total opposite. A discussion on figuring them out and how to make them work better. Especially for people that have set them up and might be having problems with them.

how about this......
"Let's put our collective minds together and see what we can come up with to make them work."

OK...ok...I got it. Take all your sand. Siphon it out. Do this only once. Now, you know the black garbage bags? Put it in one of those, preferrably one that has the tie built into the top of the bag. Next (carefully! sand is heavy!) heave it up (some explicatives usually help this part along) on to your shoulder. Walk it to the nearest playground, dump in the sandbox: you now have the most useful DSB possible!
 
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You know, there are all these people in that thread trying to figure out how to remove detritus from a DSB. How do they know its even a problem? Are people just making up all this negative stuff about DSB's, or is there a rash of crashed tanks out there I don't know about?
 
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DanConnor":3170b5h0 said:
You know, there are all these people in that thread trying to figure out how to remove detritus from a DSB. How do they know its even a problem? Are people just making up all this negative stuff about DSB's, or is there a rash of crashed tanks out there I don't know about?

i don't know that they are making anything up but they attributing just about every reefing problem to the DSB if the tank contains one. i searched for rock solid reasoning and didn't find any.
i have been informed that the reason my tank crashed in my 110 degree F home is the DSB created additional heat :roll:

the theory is the bed will become so septic that a crash will happen. so far i have only heard of Dr Shimek's tank crashing. the other problem tanks are touted as neverending algae bloomers.
 
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I'll tell ya, the only problem algae tank I ever had was bare bottom...
 

SeanT

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Podman":2sxqyk89 said:
i would add some genuine live sand (not a fellow reefer's sand that is considered live because he has had it in a tank with LR). there are a few places online that sell the stuff.

You think they have special sand?
LOL It just comes out of their tanks as well.
 
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I believe he is referring to collected live sand, which may contain a greater diversity of sand-dwelling organisms. Sand populated from live rock can be pretty good (I'm using it) but I could imagine that collected sand could have more real sand dwellers.
 

MLVA123

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Ok, so speaking as one of those oft-referenced noobs who will browse this thread and become confused...
I find it hard to believe that there is no useful scientific studys of DSBs. Of all the brainy folks out there who've been doing this for years upon years, I would bet that some decent, objective facts have been collected and documented relative to this topic, especially since Jaubert-style systems rely so heavily on the substrate.

I'm getting ready to set up my 125 reef tank, and I think I am going to put a DSB in the sump and just enough coarse stuff in the display tank to look nice and make the stock feel right at home. But hey, I'm just a noob who's read a lot of books and forum posts... :twisted:
 

Jiggaboowhat

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i am completely on the side of cwa46 on this convo. i have been a reef keeper for almost 8 years and have found that i have had little trouble w/ detrious accumulations in my 6" sand bed. i do have 5 hermit crabs and 2 fromia stars, but as far as deep sand beds go, it is suggested by every research book that i own. in the years i've been doing this, i've only had one crash and that was because of macroalgae in my refugium, never because of my dsb, as said in those links attached.
 
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galleon":28khsfl0 said:
it is suggested by every research book that i own.

:lol:

that was kinda funny :D

Jigga,
first off never, ever say you are completely on the side of anyone, much less Smiley :wink:

secondly, what books are you referring to?

i can't think of many aquarist handbooks that state the authors preferred method much less suggest the reader use one in particular instead of the others.
 

Jolieve

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Personally, I came up with a revolutionary concept... I thought I might put salt... in my saltwater tank. You know, so the saltwater fish will be happier...

Smart aleck remark aside, I have seen no evidence that adequately explains to me why it is that tanks with DSB's crash. I know many reefkeepers that have tanks with deep sand beds that are 8+ years old with no ill effects.

I think it is highly more likely that these tanks crash due to other ignorances on the part of the hobbyist, like using swing arm hydrometers, which build up with crud over time and do not measure specific gravity correctly. Not throwing away old test kits and replacing them when they have expired, and hence, not knowing when ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels are getting out of control in your system. The addition of animals that are just plain dirty, and failing to do regular water changes to compensate for that, inadequate protien skimming and too many fish...

All of these things are far more likely causes for a tank crash than the use of a deep sand bed IMO.

J.
 

Jolieve

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Some fish dirty more than others. The difference between say... freshwater goldfish and a black skirt tetra.

If you put a tang in a tank, he's going to produce more waste than say, a clownfish. If you've got him in a tank that's really too small (for the sake of argument lets say 30 gallons)... you're going to need to do more water changes to compensate for that fact.

J.
 

dgasmd

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You know, I truly believe that the least unnecessary things to make A or B work the same the better.

When I started in the hobby, I ran into this guy, Ron Hudsicker (sp?), that spent nearly 4 hours telling me about how to set up a tank that would run forever. He had been in the bussiness and hobby for well more than 2 decades. He goes on to show me his bare bottom tank with tons of flow that is random from close loop outlets colliding against each other, he shows me his ozone unit and his reactors using carbon 24/7/365, he shows me this huge counter current skimmers and the nasty never ending stuff coming out of it, he shows me the tons of rock he uses in a separate sump and how he thinks refugiums are a waste of time and effort, he shows me his UV unit he runs in all tanks, he tells me about how he does consistant water changes, and he goes on to tell me how DSB are a pretty bad concept altogether that makes no sense at all. He then goes on to show me this huge and gorgeous tank packed to the rim with extremely healthy fish and corals. I had been reading in RC and here for a year+ by then and like every single person that thinks that they know it all I thought he was just a very old school guy that could not get with the times. I thought, he must be an idiot that does not know the latest about these great DSB, about wave makers, about not using UV or ozone because it is bad for your tank, and about not having many fish in a reef tank. He just refuses to get with the now. However, I thought that it was peculiar and gave hin credit because he had been doing this for years and years and things looked amazing in his tanks. Maybe it was just luck I thought.

2 years later, I know better. I now respect the guy and have ended up doing tons of stuff pretty much like him. He was not a scientist like me and many of the so called "authorities" in the hobby, but he knew what worked and what made sense.

You can believe what makes sense to you and do what works for you. I aplaude you because in a sense you are doing no different than me. However, I can tell you that commons sense tells me that you cannot continue to pour poop and biological waste in a sand bed, regardless of how many critters are in it. Physics tell you that one object only can occupy one space at one time. The poop may be eaten by the critter to a small degree, but the critter can't make it disappear. It has to produce waste too. Unless you have the infinite power of nature in your small glass box, my friend, it has a finite limit.

If you feel your poop collection and your critter/bug farm is doing something for you, whatever it may be, I highly encourage you to continue it. However, don't argue what you or anyone else can't and has not been able to prove. Does a DSB work? Yes, in nature they do have a role and function. Do they work in a tank or close system? It depends how you define "work". I rather spend my time enjoying my corals and fish than looking at bugs and the poop they live in.

I am not attacking anyone here. I am just stating what seems the obvious to me. You are free to disagree as I am. :D
 

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