Cell Pore Slabs for reducing nitrates

[skipm]

Has anybody used the cell pore slabs (bio slabs) that are 9"x9"x4" for denitrification? Kent is marketing these and claim that they will reduce nitrates to near 0. I was wondering if anyone has used or is using these and what their opinion of them is. Thanks in advance, Skip

 

[Len]

Here's my opinion on cellpore: they work just as well as any other semi-poreous media. Denitrification is a simple process that requires anaerobic conditions to function. Cellpore does this by passing water slowly across its surface, losing oxygen the further it passes through until conditions for denitrification becomes favorable. I don't see it as any more effective then plain ol' live rock and sand. It could help control nutrients if placed in the sump with slow passing water across it, but I've not encountered a healthy reef that requres additional medium for nitrification and denitrification other then rock and sand. I guess if you're attempting to cram in as many fish into your tank as possible, cellpore could help. But that's not what we're striving for I hope.

If you have a nitrate problem, I'd first address nutrient import and export first before turning to cellpore or any other denitrification-intended media (something I really don't think is necessary).

And FWIW, a lot of people will argue that nitrate really isn't that big of a problem at all, so long as it doesn't cause plague-like algae blooms.

 

[LA-Lawman]

What if you took these slabs and burried them in your DSB. kind of like a plenum...

what do you guys think?

 

[squeezix]

Most of us on this forum have natural systems. The setup of the tanks and sumps themselves use live organic animals for denitrification. We forego traditional filter median, and use live rock, Aragonite sand, and skimmers.
We replace our bio-balls and drip plates with live rock rubble. In reefs we must provide nutrients for our filter systems. The filters are very much alive, therefore we do not us high tech means to achieve high water quality.
We take care of nitrates by use of deep snad beds. We take care of silicates and phospates bt growing macroalgae in separate refuge tanks.

I haven't posted in a while, but I guess this schooling makes me a real member.

Less fish, more diversity

I left a pic, thanxs reef.org for helping me get this far

listen to some of these guys, they can teach you a lot

 

[LA-Lawman]

I agree,

I have a 90g with 120lbs of LR and a 4-5" DSB. thats it. I was brought up on the same line. I have a filter sock in my sump and a skimmer (a good one). thats it. I control almost all of my waste params by the simple idea of watching my fish eat. (not overfeeding)

I am always open to ideas of helping people with a budget get into this hobby. Dont get me wrong bigger tanks are always better, But you can get buy if you engineer your tank properly.

... now back to the idea of using this in plenum tanks..... could it be done or do you think it is best to use the multi layers of different grain sizes of sand....

 

[skipm]

Thanks for the rsponses. I guess I should tell you a little about my system and then we can go from there. I have a 75 reef ready with an 18 gallon sump (I plan to upgrade it to a 30 in the near future) and an attatched 18 gal refugium. I have very little bio load on my system, I have a small (2- 2 1/2 inch) sebae clownfish with a bubble tip anenome, a 3 inch yellow watchman gobie with a pistol shrimp of about the same size, and a 2 inch yellow chromis (it looks more like a damsel to me though)and that is basically it. I have a bunch of mushrooms, a couple of featherdusters, a smallish leather coral, and some hermits, a few snails, and an abalone. What is confusing me is that my nitrates are running near 100 ppm using a Salifert test kit. I am running an ETSS Reef Devil III in my sump and have also added a Aqua C Remora on my refugium. I have about a 5 inch DSB in my main tank and about 3 inches in the refugium, both of these are a mixture of Southdown, Aragalive type LS, and LS (I think it was Florida LS). I use an RO system for make up water with a DI system on it (I am going to add a TDS meter soon to make sure this is doing a good job). I know that city water in my area is high in nitrates but they should be removed by the RO system. I was just wondering if the Bio Slab would also help to reduce them naturally without adding any other chemicals or resins. BTW I have between 80 and 120 lbs of a mixture of base rock and LR. Sorry for the long post, I am just confused as to where all of this nitrate is coming from.

 

[Len]

ben,
I don't think it's a good idea, since cellpore is a rigid structure and will interfere with the activities of burrowing species. These cellpore slabs are 4" thick! That's gonna block a lot of sub-substrate mobility.

 

[Len]

skip,
how old is this reef system? It definitely seems like you've got all the proper gear for nutrient import and export control, so my first hunch is this is a relatively new system that will benefit from a few successive water changes (to bring total NO3 levels down). Over time, levels may decline naturally as well.

Are you experiencing algae blooms or observing any negative effects on anything in your tank?

 

[skipm]

Thanks for the reply Len,
That is one of the main things that has me going, this tank has been set up for a little more than 2 years. I am starting to wonder if maybe my RO membrane is going bad so I have bought a TDS meter online today to check it. As I said before, I know that nitrates are really high in my city water and the only well water that I know I can obtain easily is from a farm (who knows what all is in that water with fertilizer runoff and all). The second skimmer (the Remora) I added a couple of days ago so it hasn't had much time to make much of an impact as yet. I don't feed the tank but a couple of times a week at most, sometimes I don't feed it for a week or better. I do think I need to add some more life to my sandbed (mini brittle stars, spaghetti worms, etc.) but I don't think this is the answer to the nitrate problem. Does anybody else have any other ideas? I am at a loss as to why my nitrate levels are like this.

 

[Markymarklar]

i think lawman may be onto something. if you look at any plenum, they are about 4 inches thick. you place those 4inches under another 4 inches of sand. plenums are usually wrapped in a screening material to keep burrowing animals out of it. the cell pore would probably do this as well. i see no difference in using the cell pore as apposed to using a plenum made out of pvc and screen. if you ask me, cellpore would do the same thing. we just need someone to test the theory now :wink: if you don't want to spend the time or money constructing your own plenum, then try the cell pore. if it works, get back to us and take all the credit

 

[Len]

Hmmm, you could also try a FW nitrate test kit on your RO water. TDS will tell you there's stuff in there, but not exactly what If your municipal water is extremely nutrient/metal rich, you're gonna have to change the membrane quite often. I have very clean city water where I live, and I still find it necessary to replace the membrane at least once a year (a lot shorter then what the manufacturer suggests of once every 3 years). Cyanobacteria is a good indicator of when I need to replace mine. Of course, your mileage will vary, but if you haven't changed your RO membrane yet, I recommend doing so.

Aside from water, food/additives, and introduced livestock (fish, corals, flora, rocks), there isn't much else that can contribute to your N levels. Nitrogen fixation doesn't contribute much. Has it always been high, or increasingly steadily?

 

[danmhippo]

Have you jet blast areas behind and between LRs? Accumulated detritus could lead to constant high NO3 readings like yours.

 

[Len]

I've never been convinced of plenums in closed, captive reefs. The Nice public aquarium may have done it successfully, but keep in mind they're an semi-open system (exchanges high volumes of captive water with fresh NSW). Deep sand beds do essentially the same thing without the complication (complication that may explain notorious crashes for old plenum tanks). Whether there is a plenum or not, there will always be an active gradient between the surface of the sandbed and what's beneath. So why bother with a plenum at all, I say. Why throw an extra cog in a well designed machine?

Cellpore placed at the bottom of a sandbed (where little fauna activity occurs anyhow) might not be a bad idea, but neither is it a better idea IMO. I can't see any logical reason why cellpore would serve a better function then plain old sand substrate. And 8" worth of substate (4" sand + 4" cellpore) is really what I consider overkill. Sandbeds have been demostrated to become anoxic 1.5-2.0" below the surface.

FWIW, I don't think Cellpore was ever designed for this function. It's used as a media bed to stagant water, thus facilliating anaerobic respiration. It's really not much different then what's been already availble, like Nitrex, except now it's in an easier-to-use form.

 

[Markymarklar]

i totally agree. i've heard lots of horror stories with plenums and i never intend to use one. i was just saying that lawman could be right in thinking that cellpore could be used for a plenum. if some people want to incorporate a plenum in their setup, then the use of the cell pore may have some advantages. that's the only point i was getting at. if i were setting up a tank, i would just stick with the DSB.

 

[squeezix]

I have never tried a plenum, nor will I. The concept is great, and I believe that they work, but I slo believe it is splitting hairs, as well as it is with any way of building a natural system.
Plenums work, as bare bottom tanks do as well. The reason they di is that there is enough bio-filtration going on in these tanks. Hell, fill a systen with enough live rock and you are set, so long as other parameters are on the money
There are many ways to acheive a natural system, and all do away with bio blocks, drip plates, and bio balls. (my drip plate is a vary large wide pieces of fiji rock. Most do you not use cel-pore or even phos-sorb

I believe these systems need very little man made filter and adsorbing products.

Sounds to me like you have the perfect system.

Something large has died in your system and you can't see it
OR
You have dead areas in your system that need circulation
OR
you have some type of filter, drip sock or sponge, or adsorbing/absorbing media.
OR
Your overflow is disgusting and need a vinegar bath
OR
you have bio-balls
OR
Your water purification system is overdue for an overhaul. Replece filters when you buy that TDS meter.
OR
You have a spouse or children who like to feed the fishies
OR
a recent additive may have harmed you detrivores or nitrifying bacteria

My nitrates are 0, I do not measure phosphate

Nitrates 0 because:
Bio balls are replaced with LR rubble, Drip plate is LR, refugium with bio-sediment,
6" dsb. I am an amatuer and have had many problems, but the ammonia cycle is not and will never be one.

E-mail and tell me your setup and exact NO readings. I have a few friends that can help you out.

 

[squeezix]

oops, double post