your thoughts on a petition for ethical collection practices

[Anonymous]

i'm currently working on a hobbyist's petition for the ornamental marine industry

given all of the recent developments in the industry forum, and what is now going on(hopefully for the good) with the various industry organizations, i feel strongly that the various organizations need to be made aware that a good number of hobbyists/consumers in the marine hobby DO care about getting healthier fish, and having the collection of all livestock from the reefs in the world be carried out in a sustainable, environmentally non-damaging way, that will also enable the various fisherman(specifically the phillipinos) to support themselves by providing a superior quality(net caught) product.

i'm interested in two things:

1)would you sign ?

2)do you think your voice will make a difference, and help to provide presssure on the phillipine end of the trade to stop using cyanide, and push for better implementation/incentive of non damaging collection methods?

 

[reefNewbie]

I am very interested in signing such an agreement. I do not agree with some of the extreme measures used on those poor fish.

 

[wade1]

So, outline this petition... or perhaps write it out in full detail. Lets see what we would be signing our names to. If its only a statement of "yes, we care" then all you will get with this post is those who care (those who don't, won't bother). Make sense?

So, are we voting that we would support an industry based entirely on sustainable harvest without chemicals? Are we just saying "Yeah, thats good idea." or what?

Wade

 

[Anonymous]

the petition will adress the following:

use of cyanide

the support of exporters who deal only w/net caught livestock-(i.e. undercutting of those suppliers prices by those who further cyanide use)

making sure that economic incentives are in place for the phillipino fishermen who use non destructive methods

fwiw-i already made up a first draft, and am working w/someone who is in the industry, for their help and input.

the idea here is not to just draw up a sensationalist 'tree hugger' type petition-but to contruct a reasonable, and sensible voice of concern to help make the industry aware that the hobbyists, upon whom this industry depends :wink: that there are concerned people here, who will support the efforts of all those involved in wanting to truly help finally reform the ornamental marine collection/export industry for the better

conditional upon REAL results :wink:

it's my hope that making all the various industry players aware of this concern(and the larger the voice, obviously the better)-will help give them the incentive neede to truly help do the work needed to provide hobbyists with:

a) a truly environmentally sustainable industry

b)ending the despicable practice of using cyanide

c)helping to support the phillipino fisherman w/a respectable, honorable, livelihood that doesn't poison them, their children, or the environment

d) aid the hobbyist's success in the hobby by providing a much higher quality product



when the final petition is ready, it will be posted here-should be w/in a few weeks

 

[Anonymous]

I think it's a very good idea, however, I think that when we're dealing with collectors who are clearly living at sub-poverty standards we need to put our money where our (collective) mouths are. It's very easy to say we care, but are we willing to pay more for the product, just as with, say..organic produce? I know that it's worth it to me to pay more for meat/poultry products that I know have been raised in a particular manner. On average, it's about 15%-20% more.

What do you think, vitz? (Or anyone else with an opinion on that.)

 

[Anonymous]

I think it's a very good idea, however, I think that when we're dealing with collectors who are clearly living at sub-poverty standards we need to put our money where our (collective) mouths are. It's very easy to say we care, but are we willing to pay more for the product, just as with, say..organic produce? I know that it's worth it to me to pay more for meat/poultry products that I know have been raised in a particular manner. On average, it's about 15%-20% more.

What do you think, vitz? (Or anyone else with an opinion on that.)

here's some info, and food for thought:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25163

 

[reefNewbie]

you know, fish or inverts, are the cheapest part of this hobby. people with spend 3-12g's setting up their tanks with all the high priced eqiptment. Whats a few extra dollars on an inexpensive fish to make sure we dont $!@k up our oceans more than we already have?

 

[JonF1]

i would cynically submit that if a co the size of Nike can't control what conditions its shoes are made under there's very little effect our LFS will have upon collection practices by 3rd world folks in far flung islands in the indo pacific.

don't want to discourage you from improving the world but time would prob be better spent elsewhere.

 

[Anonymous]

I would gladly sign but am also skeptical about what good it would do. I guess its better than doing nothing.

 

[ChrisRD]

1)would you sign ?

Yes.

2)do you think your voice will make a difference, and help to provide presssure on the phillipine end of the trade to stop using cyanide, and push for better implementation/incentive of non damaging collection methods?

IMO, signing a position would be one small (but good) step to helping create more awareness, but as hobbyists I think the only way we can really effect change in the industry is with our dollars.

 

[ChrisRD]

we need to put our money where our (collective) mouths are. It's very easy to say we care, but are we willing to pay more for the product

I routinely go out of my area and spend extra money to get specimens from responsible fish suppliers. In the end, I bet I actually spend less money on livestock than many because I don't have much trouble with disease or death.

 

[ChrisRD]

you know, fish or inverts, are the cheapest part of this hobby. people with spend 3-12g's setting up their tanks with all the high priced eqiptment. Whats a few extra dollars on an inexpensive fish to make sure we dont $!@k up our oceans more than we already have?

I agree 100%. Not to mention - isn't the purpose of all that expensive equipment to keep our specimens healthy and thriving in the best environment we can provide? Why condone mistreatment of these animals to save money? Why settle for adding stressed/diseased/poisoned animals to our carefully planned and maintained systems to save a few bucks?

 

[ChrisRD]

i would cynically submit that if a co the size of Nike can't control what conditions its shoes are made under there's very little effect our LFS will have upon collection practices by 3rd world folks in far flung islands in the indo pacific.

This is a cop-out IMO. It's not up to someone else. It's up to US as hobbyists to apply the pressure with how we spend our money.

If hobbyists refuse to buy cyanide collected fish, how would this NOT effect collection practices in the trade?

How many collectors will be interested in collecting fish with cyanide that won't sell?

Nike can't control what conditions its shoes are made under

Why do you believe this?

don't want to discourage you from improving the world but time would prob be better spent elsewhere.

Unfortunately, I think this is a popular attitude and why this hobby/industry could be headed for trouble. :?

 

[Expos Forever]

you know, fish or inverts, are the cheapest part of this hobby. people with spend 3-12g's setting up their tanks with all the high priced eqiptment. Whats a few extra dollars on an inexpensive fish to make sure we dont $!@k up our oceans more than we already have?

I agree whole-heartedly! I've spent 5000$ easy so far in this hobby. An extra 10-20$'ish extra per fish truely is a drop in the bucket. If it eases my conscience (about possibly harming the oceans) the slightest bit, it is well worth it IMO. I'm proud to say I haven't lost a fish in almost 2 years.

While a petition may be useful, I believe true change will only come when hobbiests educate themselves and demand responsably collected, sustainable marine organisms (tank raised if available.) Supply and demand is the governing rule of business. If people refuse to buy fish of questionable origin then the business will have to adapt and provide responsably collected animals.

I read somewhere that an upcoming Disney movie will feature a clownfish caught from the wild to be imprisoned by an evil dentist. IMO this a closer view of reality than many hobbiests (and myself) would like to admit. Especially when you consider the fact that these fish can be bred , relatively easily, in captivity.

Guesstimate that 10% of hobbiests read the message boards and/or educate themselves regarding cyanide collection issues. Some of these 10% still view the animals as disposable and easily replaceable. What you get is an incredible uphill battle, but one that is well worth fighting IMO.

 

[Anonymous]

fwiw:

net caught fish should not even require a higher price, if my understanding of the thread in the above(see mt previous post) link is correct.

the fault seems to lie w/the phillipino exporters organization. (PTFEA ) w/regards the pricing/compensation issue

a 10% increase in what the collectors make for catching is probably 10% of a nickel, or a dime-not 10% of the final retail price, and the offset in lower mortality at the importer level should more than compensate for that, anyway.

my idea is that a boycott of some sorts would be far more effective than paying more for a healthy fish-there really is no reason at all why a net caught fish should cost the hobbyist more money.

having said that, even if it did-it's still cheaper to buy a slightly more expensive fish once, then a slightly cheaper fish twice :wink:

and having said that-i think that the hobbyist shelling out more money at the retail level is not going to go where the money should,-i.e., the divers.
it will most likely go to the org.s in the industry, and i, so far, am skeptical as to whether they will then direct the money to the proper target.

seems to me that if hobbyists simply boycott any importer/ exporter that deals with anything other than guaranteed net caught fish (which is currently not a condition of mac certification)-the pressure for true industry reform could come about

 

[MaryHM]

seems to me that if hobbyists simply boycott any importer/ exporter that deals with anything other than guaranteed net caught fish (which is currently not a condition of mac certification)-the pressure for true industry reform could come about

Vitz, your heart is in the right place and I appreciate your sincere concern. However, how is a hobbyist going to boycott an exporter or importer? You don't buy from exporters or importers. And you have no way of knowing which exporter/importer is bad and which are good and which your LFS is using (they usually don't publicly announce their suppliers). And as you pointed out, MAC certification at this point is virtually meaningless and doesn't tell you a thing about who is good or bad.

 

[reefNewbie]

Guesstimate that 10% of hobbiests read the message boards and/or educate themselves regarding cyanide collection issues. Some of these 10% still view the animals as disposable and easily replaceable.

you know, i was thinking about what was said here and was wondering: If the boycott idea was used, how many people would really be doing this? There are so many people that buy fish from local stores and dont do any type of reading on them or posting on message boards. So if 10% of a stores customers stop buying from them (and this is a high overestimate) how will that really effect them? They will still have the majority of their customers (either un educated or immorale) buying from them.[/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

vitz,

i am willing to sign anything that is written out and explained explicitly that can help in this situation, though i am very weary to sign any old petition today.
if this is regarding your own draft of such a petition i would probably sign without hesitation, but the petition of a stranger would have to show me where the benefit was, and who would be benefiting beyond a doubt.

there was that question asked in a "sticky" poll that asked if one would be willing to fund a 'Johnny Appleseed' type of program. i wouldn't because i am not convinced that there would be any benefit to the wild or to person not working for such a program.

i will pay extra and have done so for net caught fish. actually i have no way of telling for certain, but often the LFS will try to excuse a particularly high price by reason of collection.
i will always pay the extra bit if i do want the specimen.

and i will sign your petition if it has the motive of slowing the unethical poisoning of our oceans and aquarium livestock without exploiting them in the process.

 

[Forest Reef]

1)would you sign ?

2)do you think your voice will make a difference, and help to provide presssure on the phillipine end of the trade to stop using cyanide, and push for better implementation/incentive of non damaging collection methods?

1. Yes, after I read it and if I agree - probably will, but always read-before-sign. (why I didn't vote, "Where do I sign??" - gotta read it first).

2. My "voice"? A little. My VOTE - YEAH!!!! :twisted: And, how, you may be asking, does a hobbyist "vote"? With our MONEY! I am the Consumer. What does Mr. Alan Greenspan et al say drives the big ol' USA economy??? The Consumer!! Those of you who don't think the li'l guy has any say - you couldn't be more wrong. Boycott? Why bother? In the marketplace, I vote with my pocketbook - and that vote is going to the best chance I have of getting net caught fish (doing my research here!). Not *technically* a boycott :twisted:

Also - what Wolfman said. Exactly. I've driven 100miles checking out not-so-L-FS and will get around to a similar trip to another city later this spring....possibilities, but they're too far away for me to develop the relationship so that I could trust/believe their protestations of "net caught". Have lost faith in such from LFS - via fish death ratio (new vs. old suppliers - but this is another thread). Maybe MAC & company will get their collective act together so I & other hobbyists can have faith in a certification program...but that's gonna take some time. [Big Hint: "Certified" = NO POISEN!! Get a clue, people! :roll: ] In the meantime - maybe those not-so-L-FS will have some of the equipment I want. :? Maybe I'll find out (from this board) of a trusty wholesaler I can ask if they sell to a FS (L or not-so) I am comfortable driving to. Last resort - on-line, also researched. Believe any claim? Certainly not - but it can be done. I did it - y'all checkout SeaCrop.com, as one example. Big "check mark" on my list of stuff-to-do on the road to the big aquarium upgrade - source of net caught fish - One found! (though I'd still like to get a L source....)