Confusing situation (long)

[Anonymous]

Alright, let me give you the total history of this in the hopes that someone can offer advice.

Details:
*75 gal tank set up approx 1.5 yrs ago
*Miracle Mud sump lit 24/7 by 18wPC from Home Depot. Couple small frags of rock for caulerpa-anchors
*Lighting = 2x 175w MH + 2 48" URI VHO (1xactinic, 1x50/50)
*In-tank circulation 1xCap1800, 2xMaxiJet 1200, 1xSump return line
*Approx 130 lbs rock, mostly Figi and Marshall
*3-4" sandbed, sugar sand
*Inhabitants: 1xStichodactyla Gigantea anemone (16" oral disc), small colony button polyps (approx 15 polyps), 2xMaroon clown (mated pair), 1xCoral Beauty angel, 1xLineatus tang, approx 3 astrea snails, approx 10 hermit crabs

My problem? I can't grow algae. None. Zip. Zilch. Any caulerpa placed in the system dies off within a couple weeks. In the sump a thick layer of reddish/black bubbly slime algae will grow to cover the surface of the water (but nothing else, just water surface) within a couple days. In the main tank I get a very fine dusting of red powdery stuff, this takes about 2 weeks to build to even noticeable levels. I have to wipe down the walls of the tank about every 2-3 weeks. I don't even bother trying to add snails any more, they just die off within a month, probably from lack of algae. Sump has good population of bristle worms, limpets, copepods, etc. Main tank has several smalls starfish (the tiny bluish ones with asymmetrical bodies) that seem to be able to reproduce and thrive.

About 2-3 months ago I thought my main problem might have been a lack of denitrification from the sandbed in the main tank, as the clowns were constantly spawning and were fanning the sand all over. Only about 1/3 of the sandbed ever stayed put. At that point, all corals were smothered by the sand settling constantly (grr!). Nitrates began to rise, despite water changes. Still no algae. I might interject that I do feed pretty heavily, at least I think so...average per day is one 3" prawn shrimp, chopped and soaked in selcon, plus one whole shrimp to the anemone. Anemone began to shrink slightly and went off of feeding cycle (ate only once a week or so).

Thinking the sandbed was the problem and wasn't going to improve so long as the clowns were in there, I bit the bullet and changed it out. Pulled all the rock, scooped about 8/10 of the sandbed out, replaced it with new aragonite in a heavier grade.

A month later the anemone was back to it's former size, all fish are super healthy, button polyps still refuse to open. Nitrates are very low, but measurable (3-4ppm). No visible denitrification in new substrate, but it's staying put a hell of a lot better than the sand did. Calcerous algae (corraline) beginning to grow again.

Fast forward to today. Anemone is bigger and healthier than ever, eating every day. Fish are fat and happy. Button polyps are still closed. Nitrates up to 5ppm. Added fresh caulerpa about 3 weeks ago to sump. Last weekend there was still a little left, so decided to try a couple more changes. Dropped a small Maxijet into the sump itself to agitate the surface (hoping to keep that bubbly slime algae away). Also changed light in sump to opposite of main tank lighting cycle (no longer 24 hr). After a week no signs of improvement--the last dregs of the caulerpa continue to die off. The 'stems' will last awhile, but all the grape tips or feather tips shrivel and die. It's not like the caulerpa goes sexual (although it did once about 9 months ago), it just dies off. Also added one small colony of xenia as an experiment last week. It looked pretty good for 2 days or so, then started to shrivel. It's still alive, but I doubt it will make it till christmas. Last I heard, xenia was supposed to be able to help export nitrates. It's not shocked either, as I did a 4 hr acclimation.

Soooo...I've laid the frame of one hell of a mystery here, folks. Not one single person that I've talked to has any clue whatsoever what could be going on in that tank. Things that make the mystery that much more enigmatic to me are the fact that the buttons (and one or two small mushrooms left on the rock) are shriveled and closed, yet the anemone is gigantic and healthy. Crabs seem fine, but snails don't last. I am utterly at a loss and frustrated as can be. I don't mind the lack of algae, but these contstantly, slowly rising nitrates are keeping me from getting corals; I refuse to put anything else in there until I know it's going to live.

So any thoughts??????????

-John

 

[Ben1]

Just a guess but maybe you should test your iron and magnesium levels. Most sea salts lack iron and for macroalgea growth it really helps, of couse it can start other algea problems but test it. Maybe this will help?

 

[Anonymous]

Just a guess but maybe you should test your iron and magnesium levels. Most sea salts lack iron and for macroalgea growth it really helps, of couse it can start other algea problems but test it. Maybe this will help?

Never tested the levels, but forgot to mention that I do dose iron, iodine, and calcium (aragamilk).

 

[danmhippo]

Hey, would you like to do a small experiment?

Stop all chemical dosing other than calcium and alkalinity. No I2, No lugols, No iron, No Mg, Nothing. After stop using them for a week, do a 25% water change, and another 25% a week later.

After the second water change, try the caulerpa again. I know MM system recommend against using skimmer, but you may want to put it on your system for now as you have no nutrient export! There are lot's more stuff skimmer can pull out other than nitrogenious compounds. As later, IF, your macro algae flourished, you can throttle the skimmer down. But for now, you need a good skimmer to pull out all that junk MM is leaching into the water.

Also, macro's prefer higher water temp (81-82F). They grow faster at this temp.

Remember, Macro's must not be shielded from the lights. They die off easily if smothered or shielded from light for a couple of days. Powerheads pointing to the surface helps.

Good Luck

 

[Anonymous]

I'm willing to try almost anything at this point. I was planning on a water change tonight, anyway, and was contemplating getting the skimmer down out of the attic and hooking it up. :-\

Man I wish I could figure this out!!!

 

[SPC]

Posted by John:

Never tested the levels, but forgot to mention that I do dose iron, iodine, and calcium (aragamilk).

A few questions John:
1. Are you acclimating your caulerpa?
2. Do you test for iodine, and if so, how do you know what level to keep it at?
3. How do you acclimate your snails?
4. This algae that floats on the surface, is it like cyano?
5. Aragamilk, does this also keep your alk level in check? If not, what are you using for that?
Steve

 

[Anemone]

18 watts of lighting isn't very much - pc or not. I'd at least double it, and wouldn't be adverse to getting a 55 watt pc from home depot and putting that in there.

Kevin

 

[danmhippo]

Ditto on the light issue.

 

[Emmitt]

jmho, but I'd take Jimmy's suggestion one step further. Stop the Calcium additions too. There's nothing in you tank that requires supplementation. Do 10 - 15% water changes (with a quality mix) once every week for 3 or 4 weeks. You need to get back to a "neutral" environment.
I don't know all the ramifications of adding excess supplements, but most good salt mixes provide acceptable environment for most setups until you get a bioload of creatures that require specific supplementation.

I've got macro algae growing out of my ears in the 'fuge, have to harvest it every couple weeks. I've never added iron or anything else (except B-Ionic for the SPS).

good luck,

 

[mountainbiker619]

I have brown algae in my tank, should I stop adding B-ionic Calcium and Alkalinity and see if that stops the brown algae growth?

David

 

[danmhippo]

619, you should look into how to decrease ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate concentration in your tank. I don't think your problem is triggered by B-ionic.

 

[mountainbiker619]

Jimmy,

Here is my water test as of two days ago:
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-10
Ammonia-0
PH-8.4
Phospate-0

I just ordered Julian Sprungs book on algae, in hopes to educate me more and thus resolve this problem.

David

 

[31-2c]

One other thought. You say that your crabs are just fine, but your snails keep dying? Is it possible that your crabs are actually killing your snails and picking at the mushrooms and polyp's (causing them to contract) Dead snails can really mess with water chemistry, especially if they fall in the rocks where the crabs cant finish them off.

Maybe I am way off base, but certainly something to think about.

One more thing, Is that the EcoSystem with the MM (Includes Bio Balls) or your own sump with MM put in it? If it is the EcoSystem with the Bio Balls, that might be your problem

 

[Anonymous]

Posted by John:

Never tested the levels, but forgot to mention that I do dose iron, iodine, and calcium (aragamilk).

A few questions John:
1. Are you acclimating your caulerpa?
2. Do you test for iodine, and if so, how do you know what level to keep it at?
3. How do you acclimate your snails?
4. This algae that floats on the surface, is it like cyano?
5. Aragamilk, does this also keep your alk level in check? If not, what are you using for that?
Steve

Steve...

1. I've tried it both ways--acclimating and just dumping in--doesn't seem to have any effect either way.
2. No, never actually tested iodine levels, just been dosing a one squirt a week of the Kent stuff (Yeah, I know...real scientific!)
3. Last time I added snails (about a year ago), I did a 2hr drip acclimation
4. The surface floating algae isn't really like cyano. It's thick and gooey and bubbly. Mostly very very dark green (nearly black) and a couple other shades of green.
5. I just got back on the aragamilk thing after not dosing Ca for quite awhile. Aragamilk is basically just super-fine-ground aragonite in a water suspension. I doubt it does much for Alk beyond basic buffering that the substrate accomplishes.

 

[Anonymous]

18 watts of lighting isn't very much - pc or not. I'd at least double it, and wouldn't be adverse to getting a 55 watt pc from home depot and putting that in there.

Kevin

I've heard both ways on the lighting issue. Some say I should have more, some say it's more than enough.

I should clarify on the lighting history of the sump. For quite awhile right after setup I had two small PC 'booklight' things (either 13W or 18W, I don't remember). Thought they were pretty dim, so changed them out with 2 clip-on trouble-light things with 75W halogen plant bulbs. (they look like a spotlamp, but have a blue coating and are supposedly especially for plant growth) Nada. When I redid the substrate, I went to one of the ice-cream-cone PCs from HD that screw into a standard light socket. Looks at least as bright as any of the previous setups (and seems to be working just as well, too :? )

 

[Anonymous]

One other thought. You say that your crabs are just fine, but your snails keep dying? Is it possible that your crabs are actually killing your snails and picking at the mushrooms and polyp's (causing them to contract) Dead snails can really mess with water chemistry, especially if they fall in the rocks where the crabs cant finish them off.

I've never noticed the crabs picking at anything they weren't supposed to.

One more thing, Is that the EcoSystem with the MM (Includes Bio Balls) or your own sump with MM put in it? If it is the EcoSystem with the Bio Balls, that might be your problem

There are about 2 dozen bioballs in thin chambers on either side of the MM partition in the sump, mainly just ot break up water flow. I have my downpipe going nearly to the bottom of the sump in that chamber, so all the bioballs that are exposed to water are continually wet (no wet-dry area). Even so, I don't think that that small amount of bioballs could contribute to the nitrification.

 

[Anonymous]

Update:

Did a 20% water change two days ago, have not retested nitrates yet. Anemone still looks a bit shrunken from the water change, button polyps have still not opened, xenia look to be still deterioriating.


So what's the verdict? Should I hook up the skimmer? Won't that strip too many of the nutrients out of the water and further keep the caulerpa from growing? I have built up a fair amount of detritus in the corners and the very low-flow areas of the sump. It'd take forever, but I could get the turkey baster out and try to suck it out as best I could. I know that could very well be adding to the nitrates slowly rising, but still doesn't explain why caulerpa can't/won't grow.

 

[31-2c]

You would be suprised how much junk those bio-balls trap. And they certainly are a nitrate factory. As for the detrious in the sump, you should siphon that out when you do a water change.

A skimmer is a must for reef tanks. A few people have been able to go without them, but I wouldn't recommend it. Don't settle for anything less than the best. A good hang on Skimmer like the AquaC Remora would do wonders.

Just my opinion

David

 

[Anonymous]

You would be suprised how much junk those bio-balls trap. And they certainly are a nitrate factory. As for the detrious in the sump, you should siphon that out when you do a water change.

A skimmer is a must for reef tanks. A few people have been able to go without them, but I wouldn't recommend it. Don't settle for anything less than the best. A good hang on Skimmer like the AquaC Remora would do wonders.

Just my opinion

David

Oh I've got a great redsea berlin skimmer collecting dust in the attic. I wanted to try the MM system, as I had had trouble keeping a good caulerpa growth in tanks years ago running skimmers. Guess a little growth is better than none, though, eh? :?

 

[SPC]

Posted by John:

So what's the verdict?

-I would definately check your alk and cal John. Get it in the correct range with a 2 part additive. Stop dosing the iodine.

Should I hook up the skimmer?

-Yes, get that water cleaned up.

Won't that strip too many of the nutrients out of the water and further keep the caulerpa from growing?

-Not in my experience it won't.

I have built up a fair amount of detritus in the corners and the very low-flow areas of the sump. It'd take forever, but I could get the turkey baster out and try to suck it out as best I could.

-No question, get this out. You might want to invest in a Hot Magnum filter with the vacuum attachment, this will allow you to syphon out the crud without loosing the water.

I know that could very well be adding to the nitrates slowly rising, but still doesn't explain why caulerpa can't/won't grow.

-Do you know what level your phosphate is? Also, you may have an iodine overdose going on.
Steve