Mixing Kalk and vinegar

[Ryan22]

This should be a fairly simple one for you guys. When I mix my Kalk in vinegar, should I be mixing them together and then adding that mix to my fresh RO/DI water, or should I mix the vinegar with the water and then add the Kalk to that? Does it matter?

Thanks,

 

[moogoomoogoo]

Why would you want to mix these two?

 

[Garry thomas]

Perhaps i'm missing somthing here? but what is the vinegar for. GT south wales


A VERY CONFUSED REEF KEEPER! but always got the blinkers off for new IDEAS?

 

[ChrisRD]

When I mix my Kalk in vinegar, should I be mixing them together and then adding that mix to my fresh RO/DI water, or should I mix the vinegar with the water and then add the Kalk to that? Does it matter?

Mix the vinegar with the water first, then add kalk.

 

[Ryan22]

Here guys, this should explain it better than I ever will be able to.


http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13770

 

[ChrisRD]

Ryan22:

Just to clarify - I tried dissolving the kalk in the vinegar first as suggested in the thread that you provided, and I didn't find it worked as well. Randy Holmes-Farley suggested adding the vinegar to the water first and then adding the kalk powder. This seems to work better for me...

Here's an article by Craig Bingman that explains the advantages of adding vinegar to your kalkwasser.

HTH.

 

[Ryan22]

Wolfman,
I've been doing it that way, adding the Kalk directly to the vinegar and mixing it with the water. Two things bothered me about it and caused me to ask this question. First the Kalk would sort of clump, and didn't disolve as easily as it had when I was adding it directly to the water(before it tried vinegar) and second, I can feel the cup that I was mixing the vinegar and kalk in, heating up in my hand. I guess the fact that I was causing a chemical reaction that was producing enough heat to be felt through a plastic dixi cup caused me to worry about driping that mixture into my tank.

Thanks for the responce,

 

[ChrisRD]

Ryan:

The same thing happened to me. It's not the heat of the reaction that concerns me, but the solids (which I think might be calcium carbonate precipitate) that settle out. My Ca/Alk levels actually dropped from doing it that way as opposed to just adding the kalk to plain water!

I asked Randy about this, and he suggested adding the vinegar to the water and then adding kalk. I seem to get more kalk powder dissolved in the overall top-off mix if I spike the RO/DI water with vinegar first and then add the powder...

 

[auto_loader]

I dont know if its right or wrong but heres what I do and it works for me.

I put a heaping spoonful of kalk powder in a cup. Then I add just enough vinegar so that I can disolve the powder. Then I stir it up with a spoon.
I then fill my 1 gallon water jug (thats how much evap I get per day from my 55) with RO/DI water. I add a little water to the cup of kalk and vinegar so its easier to pour and add it to my gallon of water. Then I shake it a couple of times to mix it up. I let it settle about an hour or 2 before the lights go out and start dripping. Sometimes I start dripping right away if I dont pre-mix the kalk.

 

[esmithiii]

Kalk with vinegar first, then add to water. That's my approach anyway.

Here is what BReefCase has to say about the matter:

To avoid this, try mixing and adding your Kalkwasser like this: pour 15ml of 5% Acetic Acid (or ordinary Distilled White Vinegar from the grocery store -- same thing) into a 1 liter (1 quart) container. Dissolve 1/2 teaspoon of lab-grade Ca(OH)2 (or commercial Kalkwasser mix) in the Acetic Acid, and then dilute to 1 liter (1 quart) volume with either RO/DI water, or even tank water.

15 ml is more Vinegar than some people are comfortable with, but I use it constantly with no problems. There should be no sediment in the mixture, or just a little bit at most. You can let the sediment settle out if you don't like the white flakes in your tank. I just drip the liquid and the sediment both into my tank.

Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.

First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.

Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.

Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).

Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers -- it has a great up side and I've yet to encounter a down side to doing it. I don't know why so few reefers do it -- lack of understanding of the chemistry behind it maybe -- but a lot more are starting now that some respected reef writers have discovered it and have recommended it and even written up detailed instructions for it.

Ernie

 

[Anonymous]

Speaking of kalk mixing techniques, I make up 6 -1/2 gallons at a time in an empty IO bucket. I usually add the ro/di, then the kalk, then the vinegar. Then I toss a PH in the bucket for 5 minutes to do the mixing part.

I know there is some concern about overmixing kalk. Anyone think the PH is a bad idea?

I guess I should also start adding the vinegar before the Kalk.

Louey

 

[esmithiii]

Yes, the powerhead in an open container will cause precipitation of Calcium Carbonate. Here BReefCase spells it out for us:

The advice not to mix the Kalk too much is right on target. As the equations I posted show, if you are not using any Vinegar in the mix you certainly DO need to avoid mixing the Kalk powder with CO2 until AFTER it's dripped into the tank.

Look again at the equations. Both the GOOD reaction that liberates useful Calcium ions (Ca++) into your tank, and the BAD reaction that wastes the Calcium ions as solid Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3), require the addition of different amounts of CO2.

The problem with allowing the CO2 reaction to occur as you mix your Kalk in a container without Vinegar is that you are mixing it in a comparatively small quantity of water that contains only a very limited amount of CO2. So, instead of having enough CO2 to go all the way to useful Bicarbonate ions (HCO3-, or Alkalinity) as you want it to, the chemical reaction stops at the undesirable Carbonate ion (CO3--). This is what sets the stage for the Calcium ions to precipitate out as useless solid Calcium Carbonate while still in the mixing container -- the Kalk mixes with SOME CO2, but not with ENOUGH CO2.

 

[Newts]

I mix up 2 to 2.5 gls. a day.I first put 100ml of vinegar in plastic cup,than add 4 to 5 teaspoons of kalk. and lightly stir trying to not mix a lot of air into it when I stir.Than add this to RO/DI water and stir lightly again to mix up solution.Let this sit for at least a couple hours preferably 12 hours to let settle than drip slowly.My calcium as around 420 to 480 and DKH is always around 9 to 11.I haven't had to add buffer to my tank since using this method,witch has been about 7 months now.I also do this with my other two tanks.

 

[randy holmes-farley]

Anyone who is mixing the lime and the vinegar, and getting it to all dissolve in that tiny volume is converting all of it to calcium acetate. They are then adding way more vinegar than was originally proposed by Craig, and are then going to miss out on many of the potential benefits of limewater (the precipitation of phosphate, the precipitation of all of the lime impurities in the water prior to delivery to the tank, etc.).

 

[esmithiii]

I add 200 ml of white distilled vinegar to a 250ml florence flask. To this I add 10 teaspons (3.5 tablespoons) of kalkwasser powder and I swirl gently (not all the kalk powder dissolves). I then add this to 7-8 gal. of cold RO/DI water which gets added to my tank over a two day period.

Ernie

 

[Garry thomas]

Right so u ad vinegar to make solution acidic to dissovle kalk which lowers ph MMmmm..why risk possibly introducing impurities to tank? WHY not add CO2 to lower PH and dissovle precipitated calcium carbonate? GT s wales

 

[esmithiii]

There are other benefits (see this thread: Everything you wanted to know about Kalkwasser and vinegar but were afraid to ask )

Dissolving the Kalk powder in the Vinegar first will accomplish several very good things.

First, it will get more Calcium ions (Ca++) into the solution because you are dissolving the Ca(OH)2 in an acid instead of water, and forming Calcium Acetate, which exists as a dissociated equilibrium of free Calcium ions and Acetate ions.

Second, the Acetic Acid (Vinegar) provides an equivalent of all the CO2 you need to avoid precipitating the newly-added Calcium ions as useless white Calcium Carbonate powder.

Third, after all the cool Calcium ion chemistry is over, the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon in the water that feeds the bacteria in your tank so that it converts more poisonous Nitrates to NO2 gas (a very good thing).

Adding Vinegar in Kalkwasser is one of the few win-win situations for reefers

 

[Garry thomas]

And the vinegar wont harm my tank i'd be a little scared i thinkGT s wales

 

[esmithiii]

Aquarists have been doing this for years- I have used this method for last 12 months.

Enrie

 

[Garry thomas]

I'v never seen it any where else but ill give it a go GT s wales