Newbee needs help

[Doug M.]

I am some what new to this stuff. A freind of mine gave me a 70 gallon tank with a wet dry filter, pump, protein skimmer, and an ozone purifier. I was trying to do a reef tank with an undergravel filter and a canaster filter a few years ago when I lived in Chicaago without much success. I was able to keep fish very well but no invertabrates. This was my dream system then but I couldn't afford it. Now I have the system but am still limited on funds. I do have a definate advantage, I am living in a house with direct access to the Gulf of Mexico. I am planning to get most if not all of my water from the Gulf. I have a small boat and will go out about five to ten miles to collet it.
I began by getting sand and rocks from an island about 50 yards out. This was my second mistake. My first was getting my water from the canal from behind my house. The first time I did it everything seemed fine but the second time I found the salinity was really low. I did this after I cycled the tank with a few fish that I caught in the Gulf. I released them when I bought a few damsels ten red legged hermit crabs, six mexican tubo snails, and four emerald crabs. Unfortunatly I did the water change after all of the pet stores in the area were closed and had to leave my newly purchased fish in low salinity over night. The next morning I got the salinity up but all of the hermit crabs disappeared and all of the snails were pretty weak. I watched them die the next day. I then got five more turbos. They too were lethargic. I know snails don't move fast but these wern't going to make it I was sure. I then had a thought; maybe the snails were reacting to something that was in the sand as the fish and the emerald crabs that stayed on the rocks and in the water seemed very active and healthy. I took the snails and put them on the rocks and they slowly came around. Since then I scooped as much of the sand out as I could and siphoned off more of it. I replaced the substrate with with crushed coral. I don't have the money for the live stuff but what I got looks good. I am going to siphon more of the sand with each water change. I am now expiriencing a small spike in my amonia, nitrite, and nitrate. I don't know if I killed all of my bacteria and am going to have to cycle again or what but I will watch it closely and see.
I know this sounds like a diaster but there are some victories. My rocks are covered with all kinds of cool plants and wild life: bugs, worms. oyters, and banacles. Maybe some of you think they are a waste but even ugly creatures deserve a chance. One of my fish, a domino damsel, immediatly showed signs of an ich-like parasite. After a few days he is now velvety black and extemly active. If anything he may have a tape worm as he is always hungry. The emerald crabs have settled in and seem happy. They are decimating my plant population though. The pet store guy said they don't eat plants only algae. I guess he was wrong. I don't care I can get new plants easily enough.
Sorry to make this so long but I got carried away. I know more than a few of you will roll your eyes and think some of the things I did, like the sand, was stupid but it wasn't it was ignorance. There is a difference. I know better now. Anyway if anyone would like to comment and help me prevent another stupid mistake like that I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance. Doug.

 

[wade1]

I worked in the Dept of Oceanography at A&M while down there and did a good bit of work in the Galveston and Padre Island areas... I personally would not use any water from anywhere near shore at all. I would even hesitate about using water from 5 miles out, unless you get lucky and find blue water that close to shore. If you do want to use the water, you will need to run it through a good filter first or you will end up polluting your tank. There are just too many boats and oil rigs in the area to avoid toxicants.

Sand and rock from nearshore areas are also risky. It could probably be used if you got it from greater than 10 feet under the surface, but I would spray/scrub it clean of debris before putting it near my tank.

Now for the kicker. I doubt seriously that you will be able to keep Indo-Pacific corals in water of the quality you will be finding. They are used to oligotrophic water... which you can find in the gulf, but its more like 20-30 miles out. You'll likely be getting runoff effect and excess nutrients and bacteria and and and....

In all, I would highly suggest you just invest in the salt and RO/DI water if you want to keep a successful reef.

But, if you decide to go with this plan, get lagoonal coral species used to higher nutrient environments.

Let us know how it goes...

Wade

 

[Doug M.]

Thanks for the tips. I might need to rethink my plan. I don't want to kill a single thing. It's not the cost but it breaks my heart. I hate to see anything suffer. I also don't want to be a one of those people who rent fish and corals. I esspecially don't want to add to the problem of reef destruction. I need to find a place that sells home grown fragments.
I you or anyone else has more suggestions I would be happy to read them.
I was under the impression that natural sae water was better for tanks than sythetic. Since I have such good access I thought I should take advantage of it.
As far as scrubbing the rocks wouldn't that kill all of the little critters on and if it did wouldn't I be just as well off not using live rock?
On one of my rocks I have a hydra(?). A small grayish clear anenome looking creature. Two questions: Is he cool or should I get rid of him? How hearty is he? He seems to be doing well but like I said I seem to be cycling again for some reason.

 

[wade1]

Scrubbing the rocks might remove some of the life but not a whole lot. Fiji rock usually sits on a dock for a good amount of time before actually shipping and it still has life on it. The point is to remove anything that might harbor pesticides, etc.

As to the hydra, most hydroids are not good things, they have a rather potent sting. And what is worse is that they use medussa form (little jellyfish) to reproduce and can way populate a tank in a hurry.

What area of TX you from btw?

Wade

 

[Doug M.]

I not in Texas I am in Port Richey Fl, about an hour north of Tampa. I have a lot of family in Texas.
So I should do in this Hydra? What other dangerous little beasties should I look for? I saw barnacle ejecting some granular sustance. It might have been sand, eggs, or waste. I don't know. I have a little crab that came off of the rocks. I couldn't describe him as he is less than a quarter inch long. Big enough to look like a crab but too small to really see anything remarkable. I also have the oysters and a small black thing that looks like a muscle. I have also seen several bugs. I did soak all of these rocks for several hours in tap water.
I think I am going to get a book or two or eight. There are too many things I don't know. Have any sugestions?
Thanks again for all of your help. Rest assured that it will be quite a few months before I put any delicate invertabrates in this tank.
Where in N.C. are you? My brother lives in Raleigh.

 

[wade1]

As for life to watch for... mantis shrimp are common, but more common are the crabs in the area. You don't want any of the crabs crawling about the tank. The water north of the Tampa area is actually not as bad as the southern TX water, sorry. Its not great, and still way shallow until 20-30 miles out, but better since the inflow from the carribean is nearer. If you go a few hours south though, you won't have those issues. Sponges, bivalves, etc on the rock are not an issue.

I'm also in Raleigh... if your brother is into reefing, let him know we have a 65 member statewide coral trade group... we meet a couple times a year to trade/sell frags.

Wade

 

[Doug M.]

I might have him meet you to buy a couple of frags for me if it's O.K. He comes down here every couple of months.
I can get to pretty deep water with a twenty minute boat ride. I only have a 19 foot boat that is completly open and am a little nervous about going further than that. About 25 miles out there is a pretty great looking reef. I was considering collecting a few on my own but after reading about the destruction going on I think I would rather stick to frags from other reefers.
As for water changes I was thinking of doing about 7-10 gallons a week, weather permitting. I think I will try "harvesting" that myself. What's the worst that could happen? Everything is new so I don't have a lot to lose.
again I appreciate the advise.
Thanks, Doug

 

[Doug M.]

Mantis shrimp- are they the ones at the bait shop? I have four left overs from a recent fishing trip that I put in to help clean up the die off from the rocks I picked up. I am getting rid of them the next time I go fishing.
Forget it I found out I am fine with these. For a few days.

I also found the critter section to ask some of these questions.

 

[wade1]

Mantis Shrimp-

http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/

Not the kind you fish with, although some asian cultures eat the larger versions... They are strong enough to blow out your fingers (ie- the name Thumb Splitters) or crack open hard shells with their impact (there are 2 types, but usually only see the smashing kind). They can do a number to mobile invertebrates or little fish in a home tank when they get hungry.

As for the frags, no problem. The boards here have a trading post, lots of places sell frags, and I could readily send some at you once my tank has matured a bit more.

Wade

Ps- I may be in the Tampa area later next month (St Pete) for a conference... I'll have to let you know.

 

[Doug M.]

I wasn't thinking of adding any corals for a few months. I may change my mind but...
The first thing I want to do is to learn to get my chemistry exactly right and keep it that way. Then I want to encourage lots of coraline algae. Then maybe i'll be able to keep some corals healthy and thriving.
That is the most important thing.
If you do make it to St. Pete you are welcome to come up and see my system. It won't be much to look at but any sugestions you have would be appreciated. If you want I could take you out on the boat. It's not much to look at either but there is no better expirience than just being out on "big" water. Nothing beats looking out at a true horizon.
Thanks for the link to the mantis shrimp. It's too bad they are "bad". They look pretty cool. If I do find one i might have to set up a little tank and keep him there.
I am having a problem with my Na, No, and Am. They are not high they just won't disappear. It could be that I am experiencing a mini-cycle, however; I have some detritis on my bioballs from that ****ing sand that I put in the tank. Dead plant material ect. Could this be my problem? It is not much but I can see it in there. I was thinking of washing them off with the water change. I would not use fresh water. I would use the siphoned water from the tank. I have been told that I should never disturb them and I can see that point but if that junk is keeping my nitrates up then what other choice do I have? I guess I could replace them with LR. I am worried about the expense though. Right now money is a definate obstacle. I am starting a new line of work and don't know exactly how it is going to go. The big problem is that right now I have the time but no cash. Later I will have the cash but less time. Catch 22, huh?

 

[wade1]

If I were you, I would eliminate the bioballs altogether. They will serve to increase your nitrate concentration over time. A skimmer and water movement combined with frequent water changes should suffice (assuming you have enough rock and a deep enough sandbed). The same goes with filter floss/other media. Its not needed in a reef.

As to the presence of the ammonia, et al. It does indeed sound like things are still dying off in the tank. I would keep circulation high and give it time. Once the die-off is completely gone, then it will finish the cycle and levels will come back to normal.

Good luck with it.

Wade

 

[Doug M.]

This is my entry for my tank log for today. Take a look at it and let me know what you think. There maybe better quicker ways but with this plan I will be able to afford the rocks and fish and stuff on time. BTY the tank is a 70 gallon bow front with a wet/dry filter underneath. The lighting is sketchy. It consists of a balasts that will hold four floresent kind of "U" shaped tubes. It has one fan in it and does add to the heat of the tank. The tank also sits outside on a covered patio. That area gets a couple of hours of direct morning sun but for the rest of the day it is diffused. Needless to say there would have to be a pretty drastic storm for any rain water to get to this area of the patio. Eduard came through a couple of weeks ago and that part of the patio stayed perfectly dry. He wasn't very windy though. I have a protein skimmer in the sump. After the water leaves there it goes through the pump and is piped through an ozone purifier. Anyway take a look at my log entry:


Sept. 13
AMMONIA -0.25
NITRATE -15-20
NITRITE -0.5
PH -8.2
CALCIUM -450
PHOSPHATE -2+
TEMPERATURE -85
SPECIFIC GRAVITY-1.020

New plan… run tank for six weeks adding at the most a few snails, red and blue legged hermit crabs, and some sort of substrate cleaners. I may also get more substrate now but maybe I will wait. After that the collected rock should have cured. The tank will definitely have cycled. I will then remove the bioballs, and replace them with some of the rocks that are currently in the tank. If I haven’t added the new substrate by then I will do that. Also I will get 50# of good live rock. The goal is to add a total of 70# but I will save the extra 20# for some rocks that I can’t live without. After adding the new live rock I will turn off the ozone purifier and let the tank rest and catch up to it’s new bio-load. This should take (?) 4-6 weeks. During this time if there is a rock I can’t live without, chemistry permitting, I will by it. After this time I will look for a breeding pair of clowns and an anemone that they would like. The anemone must be an easy to care for type. I’ll need to research this. I can also start looking for a few more fish to add; about one every two or three weeks depending on the chemistry. After all this I can start to add some corals. Mid January is the time that I will be shooting for. I will also need to collect some buckets and such for moving the tank in case of a hurricane next year. I also will need to look into some temperature control equipment; heaters this winter and a chiller for next summer.


Any additions suggestions or changes?

 

[ReefLion]

Two little board tips that really will help us help you. Don't be afraid to make a number of separate threads for different issues, and please break up very long posts into paragraphs. I know that's not the advice you were looking for, but it will help you get it.

Tim

 

[wade1]

AMMONIA -0.25
NITRATE -15-20
NITRITE -0.5
PH -8.2
CALCIUM -450
PHOSPHATE -2+
TEMPERATURE -85
SPECIFIC GRAVITY-1.020

All of these 'should be' 0... ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate. P04 and nitrate aren't toxic, but ammonia and nitrite are. Do not add any livestock until those numbers are 0. You may be picking up the P04 from your water source. I'd raise the sg to 1.026 which is what oligotrophic water is on most reefs. Temp is going to be a real issue for you, especially in the summer. If you can maintain a tank at no more than 85-86 it will be alright, but more than that and many of the corals will die. Unless you want to keep carribean stuff only and that can survive at times. The bigger enemy though is temperature swings.. you should minimize swings to less than 4 degrees F. More than that will (even if all other parameters are good) cause your corals to stay brown.

The phosphate will just cause major algal blooms...

Wade

 

[wade1]

As for the other stuff, your long range plan sounds like a very good one. Remember that a chiller generates alot of heat in the room where its located, so make sure its not right under the tank or is ventillated if it is...

I would not add any livestock until it has completely cycled through and the nitrogen compounds read 0 across the board. I'd remove the bioballs and wet/dry media slowly, but get rid of it anyway. It will cause aerobic breakdown of ammonia and generate high nitrates. See the following for an idea of the cycle:

Make sure you have a good skimmer and good lighting and you'll do alright, but you have to aim for stability... temp, salinity, pH all need to be stable before adding life to the tank.

Wade

 

[Doug M.]

I am now consdiering building a refugium. I bought most of the equipment last week end. That should help everything out especially in the long run.
Basically I am going to "Hit the restart button." I should have done more research before I started. :roll:
As far as temp is concerned I am going to set up a refrigeration system also. I mapped out the whole system which will include two refugiums actually. One will have macro algae andthe other will have mangove and, perhaps, other plants like salt water marsh grasses and such. :idea:
I am not going to start this for at least a weeks and some parts will not be in place for a few months. I don;t think I want to add any live stock for quite some time. If you want I will detail the plan out for you later.
Thanks for your advice.
BTW I am running Kents PO4 sponge to get that down to prevent algae blooms until I have the time to do something more permanent. It is now at .5. I will take it out tomorrow, probably. I don't think Iwill be using sea water. At least I will run a full set of tests on it first. I didn't do that. I know Ishouldhave but... I also used like five gallons or so of tap water to top off the tank. That was another avenue for the PO4. I know. I shouldn't have donethat either.
Thanks againfor your time.
doug

 

[ReefLion]

Sounds like a good plan. Probably 99% of us didn't do enough research at the start, so don't feel bad. We've all been through the wasted time, money and equipment. The most important things you can have are patience and a willingness to learn. Sounds like you have those in abundance.

Let us know the plan for the refugium. There are lots of simple ways to set something up.

Tim