Can standard Oceanic 1" drains handle Ampmaster?

[Anonymous]

OK, so I finally am ordering my 120 Oceanic- I am having them put both drains in one oversize corner overflow. I am planning on having a big Agway stock tank in the basement with an Ampmaster doing the return. There is a rise of maybe 7 feet and a horizontal run of around 12.

Do you all think I need to have the drains enlarged to 1.5? I'm also planning on possibly using the return holes in the overflow to plumb a closed loop...

 

[golfish]

Dan,
Are you going to use 1.5" returns all the way or will you reduce? I found my 40 gal sump could only handle about 1500 gph so I put my AM3k on a closed loop and went with a Mag 12 for sump return. If you going to use 1.5" returns and your sump is big enough to handle the GPH and you run the AM3K full throttle then your overflows might be a little slower..................who cares, that's what ball valves are for Don't you think you'll get more flow from one 1.5" bulkhead then you will with 2x1"?

 

[Anonymous]

Figured I would run 1.5 all the way and T off at the tank to a couple of seaswirls. I'm just sticking tenatively with the 1" because they charge around $90 (I think) to enlarge the holes, and if it won't be needed why do it...

 

[SPC]

Dan, I can't say for sure on your tank but can tell you what I did on my 180. I also am using the Ampmaster for return and went with 2 - 1.5" drains. My logic was to make sure I had enough drain as opposed to not enough (know what I mean :wink: ). I could not tell what pump I might want to run 2 years from now, maybe more GPH, and I sure did not want the drains to limit me.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I hear ya.
Do you run 2 1.5s all the way to the sump of are they joined to one larger line?

 

[npaden]

I ran a tenative head loss calculation for you and it looks like the Ampmaster would get about 2,000 gph to the tank with that plumbing setup assuming you use a limited number of 90 degree elbows and streamline the plumbing as efficiently as possible.

I personally wouldn't want to run 1,000 through each 1" drain although if everything was working perfect you could probably do it. I try to use 750 gph as the benchmark for a 1" drain personally.

The other option is to just put a gate or ball valve to restrict the output of the ampmaster to match the 1" drains.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[SPC]

Posted by Dan:
Do you run 2 1.5s all the way to the sump of are they joined to one larger line?

-Join them, I run a 3" pipe to the sump.
Steve

 

[AF Founder]

OK, so I finally am ordering my 120 Oceanic- I am having them put both drains in one oversize corner overflow. I am planning on having a big Agway stock tank in the basement with an Ampmaster doing the return. There is a rise of maybe 7 feet and a horizontal run of around 12.

Do you all think I need to have the drains enlarged to 1.5? I'm also planning on possibly using the return holes in the overflow to plumb a closed loop...

IMO, it's better to have more capacity than just enough. With just enough, if something -- snail maybe-- were to block one hole the result would be a lot of water on the floor.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys- I'm making a phone call!

 

[Anonymous]

Well, the guy at Oceanic said that increasing the drains to 1.5 inch doesn't do anything because the overflow bulkheads cannot handle that much flow. Comments?

 

[npaden]

You can increase the flow through the overflows by either increasing the width or height of the overflow slots. (i.e. the slots are 1/4" wide X 1" tall with 1/4" space between and you increase the size to 1/4" wide X 2" tall you have doubled the flow that the overflow can handle.)

I know some people have done this with the all glass overflows, I'm not sure what Oceanic uses for overflow material, but if it is acrylic or plastic it should be easy to widen or lenthen the slots.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[SPC]

Posted by Nathan:
You can increase the flow through the overflows by either increasing the width or height of the overflow slots.

-Dan, this is what needs to be done and I am suprised that Oceanic has a problem with this. Let me give you an example. I had my tank built custom by Ocean View. I told them what size I wanted the bulkheads, and that I wanted the smallest over flow boxes possible that could still handle the flow. I am not in the aquarium building business so I didn't expect to have to figure out for them how this could be accomplished :roll: . In the end they simply built my tank the way I requested and made sure that everything would work.
Steve

 

[liquid]

Nathan,

What program did you use to calculate the head loss for Dan?

Shane

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc.htm

head loss calc from reefcentral

 

[liquid]

I don't think that's the program Nathan used tho. Based on that calculator, @ 3000 gph, 1" or 1.5" pipe ID, 12 ft horizontal run, 7 ft vertical climb, one 90° elbow gave the following numbers for the total head loss from sump to tank:

1" pipe (friction factor = 0.01366387):
Frictional head loss is 32.52 foot head or 14.05 psi.
Elevation head loss is 7 foot head or 3.02 psi.
Total head loss is 39.52 foot head or 17.08 psi.

1.5" pipe (friction factor = 0.0149733):
Frictional head loss is 5.35 foot head or 2.31 psi.
Elevation head loss is 7 foot head or 3.02 psi.
Total head loss is 12.35 foot head or 5.34 psi.

Based on this and the pump curve for the Amp3000, you couldn't even push water thru from the sump to the tank w/ a 1" pipe. A 1.5" pipe you could tho.

What prog did you use Nathan?

Shane

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, when I use the suggestions on Dolphins plumbing page it looks like I would only be running about 1200 gph...

 

[npaden]

Shane,

Who said I used a program?

Actually I used a spreadsheet that Sanjay is working on for an article he is doing on plumbing. It's not ready for distribution or anything and I'm not entirely sure what his plans are for it (an attachment to article or what). I think he is going to try to get it published in advanced aquarist in the July or August issue.

The problem with most calculations are that the whole thing is a circular argument. You don't calculate the head loss at 3,000 gph because the flow isn't going to be 3,000 gph because there is going to be head loss. You have to guess what the flow rate will be and calculate the head loss based on that and keep doing it over and over again until the flow rate you used to calculate the friction losses actually matches the performance curve of the pump you are using. If you use the same facts and circumstances as you ran on the RC calculator at 2,000 gph you get the following:

Using the following input parameters:
Friction Factor = .0155
Vertical Length = 7
Horizontal Length = 12
Pipe Diameter = 1.5
Flow Rate = 2000
90° Elbows = 1
45° Elbows = 0

Head losses are calculated as
Frictional head loss is 2.42 foot head or 1.05 psi.
Elevation head loss is 7 foot head or 3.02 psi.
Total head loss is 9.42 foot head or 4.07 psi.

When you look at the ampmaster performance curve they show 1,800 gph at 11' head and 2,520 gph at 8' head so if you split the difference to get to 9.5 you would get 2,160 gph. So my friction loss calculated at 2,000 gph would actually be to low and I would need to guess again and do the whole calculation over. Say maybe using 2,075 gph. You can see it is a circular argument and it actually takes multiple calculaitons. Sanjays spreadsheet includes a solver to tackle the circular calculation.

I actually used 3 - 90 degree elbows in my calculation with the spreadsheet and thats why I got a little lower number.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[golfish]

You can increase the flow through the overflows by either increasing the width or height of the overflow slots. (i.e. the slots are 1/4" wide X 1" tall with 1/4" space between and you increase the size to 1/4" wide X 2" tall you have doubled the flow that the overflow can handle.)

I know some people have done this with the all glass overflows, I'm not sure what Oceanic uses for overflow material, but if it is acrylic or plastic it should be easy to widen or lenthen the slots.

FWIW, Nathan

Dan,
I did this because my two 6x6 corner overflows couldn't stay up with the Amp Master. It was a big mistake because after I cut them I realized trying to shove 2500-3000 gph through a sump was useless. The return bubbles and noise was more then I could bare. I was lucky tho because the level in my tank is not too bad. I made the slots more wider then deeper.

Good Luck

Mark

 

[liquid]

<A little light pops into Shane's head>

AAaahhhhh!!!! Escobal was very cryptic on where that GPH value came from. Now I understand!

</A little light pops into Shane's head>

Shane

 

[npaden]

I am planning on having a big Agway stock tank in the basement with an Ampmaster doing the return.

I'm also planning on possibly using the return holes in the overflow to plumb a closed loop...

Mark - I'm not sure what size stock tank he is going to use but at 100 gallons on up they should be able to handle the ampmaster pushing 2,000gph.

Dan - you might check on just using a good dependable pump like an Iwaki for the return and hooking the ampmaster up on a closed loop. I'm not sure if Oceanic would drill the back of the tank for bulkheads for a closed loop or not but 2 - 1.5" bulkheads on the back of the tank would work great.

FWIW, Nathan