Weekly debate

[Debater]

This week's debate:

Do you really believe in old tank syndrome? Do you believe its caused by metals accumulating in our tanks? From Dr. Ron Shimek's opinion we should all tear down our tanks after four years, is that really a wise thing to do? What is your opinion?

Remember, this a debate, so don't treat it as a newbie that is trying to get information. State your opinion and, if available, use material that will back up your opinion.

If you have an idea on a topic that would be good to debate about, please let one of the ops know or email me by hitting the email icon below this post.

 

[npaden]

Heh, I guess I'm the only one that likes these debates! I was the first post last time so maybe I will get the first post again this time if I don't type to long! I think last time everyone knew I was right and so they didn't want to disagree with me!

In a nutshell I think old tank syndrome is BS! Heh. There are just to many guys around with tanks > 4 years old that are doing great. I think it is a good idea to restock various detritivores and do some periodic large water changes but the whole OTS is overblown. Sure there are some guys out there with 4 year old tanks that suddenly developed problems but there are way more 1 year old tanks that suddenly develop problems. (Of course there are way more 1 year old tanks, but I think you get my point! )

The biggest problem that I had with Ron's study is that he doesn't compare the results of the tests to how the individuals tank was doing or even how long it was set up. The highest ratio of heavy metals might have come from one of the youngest tanks that was doing horrible. Or it might have come from the oldest tank that was doing great. Ron says that the person who gave the water sample wouldn't be able to tell if their tank was doing well or not. His conclusion basically says that every animal in every tank that he tested is on the verge of death. I would like to see a list of the people who provided samples to him and see if all the livestock in their tanks have died by now.

Oh well, I think I started enough rambling to maybe get us going.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[danmhippo]

One single uncontrolled sample analysis does not justify a statements such as what Dr. Shimek has made. Unless he can provide data that a tank under controllecd environment with regular water change still accumulates those heavy metal compounds, I would call what he has said an overstatement. Like many on this board, I too have seen too many tanks doing superb running 4, 5, or seven years without much changes to the sandbed or LRs. These tanks all received regular and religious water changes monthly.

 

[Anonymous]

agreed-it would seem that if dr.ron's implied conclusion was correct-all tanks over 4-5 yrs would either be crashing, or losing lots of animals-the evidence of what occurs with hobbyists seems to indicate that the danger is nowhere near what he contends, if non-existant-not that i don't think that the accumulation of metals/minerals doesn't occur, somewhere,but they may get, and STAY bound with other materials.

personally-the only 'ots' i've seen occured in tanks that were 'neglected', or run for long periods of time w/no water changes!,and they were, for the most part, freshwater aquaria.

it would also seem to me that some kind of slow 'deterioration' should be observable-i've never seen, or heard of such, occuring in long running tanks.

 

[npaden]

Just some additional thoughts on this. The people that I've seen break down tanks due to "OTS" typically have done this due to a nusiance algae they couldn't get rid of or slow growth of certain corals or something similar. I don't think this would fit the pattern Dr. Ron would be reaching in his conclusion where corals & fish should be dying.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[jamesw]

FWIW, I had a problem with "old tank sydrome" on my last tank that was set up for 3 years.

That's because I was using tap water for all of my makeup water. Over those three years, I was adding metals and orthophosphate (Houston water) but I wasn't taking much out. Get my drift?

After a time it got so that any SPS or LPS that I added to the tank would bleach a pale white, then die after a few weeks.

I broke that tank down and started brand new w/ new rock and sand and a GOOD ro unit from Spectrapure.

Maybe OTS is not a problem for people who do things the "right way" but boy...do things the wrong way and it can go to the extreme.

Cheers
James Wiseman

 

[reefland]

For a long time I've read about people who claim to do nothing with their tank other than clean the glass, feed, and topoff. And it always bugged me that I had to spend hours and hours each week working on the tank and it never looked that good.

My tank is nearly 5 years old now and for the last 8 months or so I can finally say it is doing fantastic. Not just ok, but thriving. Incredible growth rates, vibrate colors, haven't had a fish loss in years (other than anemone grabbing some smaller fish).

I'm at the point where the tank should be crashing yet it has never been better. I personally feel OTS is nothing more than Lazy Reefer Syndrome. It is hard to fight. After many years of being in this hobby you don't get excited about seeing little bugs or worms crawling around anymore... You don't measure water parameters every week and keep fancy graphs showing the parameter trends. Often you don't even bother with water changes anymore. I'm guilty of all the above. The care you provide slips a little at a time and keeps slipping. These wild animals that have adapted to captive care are amazing at hiding stress. By the time you have signs it can be too late.

You make OTS your own reality. Even if I believe in nothing Dr. Ron has claimed about in older tanks he has opened my eyes enough to put tank maintenance back in perspective.

 

[Anonymous]

From my experience OTS can be from a number of sources - I agree with James on the heavy metals from tap building up over time I also think that terpenes and other noxious chemicals from soft corals play a big roll unless aggressive water change and carbon schedules are followed with tanks containing softies.

I also think it's quite overblown.

 

[CaptiveReef]

:roll: Reef tank's are like a bottle of wine they get better with time. I would do multiple water changes to freshen up an old tank/system. I would not tear it down and redo it!!!!!!!
I have a system that has been running for 8 years and no problems. The buildup of metals will occur if tap water straight from the tap is used. I live on Long Island and I filter all my water before it goes into my tanks.
Looking at my tank/system, I could never tear it down it looks too good!!!!!!!!!


CaptiveReef

 

[Anonymous]

Do you really believe in old tank syndrome?

i think there are many possible reasons a tank may get difficult after some years.
to me, the word syndrome implies that there is a particular disorder that has particular causes.

so, i can't claim to believe in this as i don't think there is adequate information that any particular pattern exists.

i will say that my 46g tank is now a tad over 5 yrs and it is increasingly difficult to deal with.

Do you believe its caused by metals accumulating in our tanks?

could be. i don't believe this to be the problem in my tank, i think it's the fact that the tank is becoming heavily stocked and the calcium/ alkalinity is difficult to keep up with and the small amount of water in this system further complicates things.

i think it is possible that some animals living in our systems may have a life span that doesn't last over 4-5 yrs. and it may be that reproduction in all closed systems is not possible. this could lead to increased tank crashing at this interval. who knows?

From Dr. Ron Shimek's opinion we should all tear down our tanks after four years, is that really a wise thing to do? What is your opinion?

wise? no. the cost of this is enough to steer anyone but the elite out of this hobby. i'd say a wise person would continue business as usual until some concrete evidence is displayed.

i thrown this out there before, but i see no reason why WC, GAC use, and harvesting of caulerpa or other harvesting means (xenia? aiptasia?) would not prevent a toxic buildup of these metals.

 

[Len]

I don't presently have the time to voice my full opinion, but I will state I have a 7 year old reef that is doing terrific.

 

[Mike King]

I also think that the build up of heavy metals in our tanks can cause problems after a period of time.

Many trace elements have very narrow windows of optimum concentration in our tanks go a few parts per million over that and they become deadly to living organisms. Certain forms of the same elements/compounds can be very toxic take Chromium for example, while Chromium is a very non toxic metal and its oxidized state Cr+3 is still safe add 3 more O2 molecules and it becomes Cr+6 a very nasty chemical that has been associated with everything from skin reactions to genetic deformities.
Many times these elements/compounds and their extremely toxic counter parts have a natural equilibrium in which a percentage of the element/compound occurs naturally i.e. say 1:10000 or more. So as their concentration increases so does the concentration of the bad form.

When we add live sand or Aragonite to our tanks we are adding all the elements that are contained in it also, not just Calcium Carbonate. As the substrate slowly dissolves it releases elements and chemicals back into the water where some are reabsorbed and incorporated back into the structure of our plants and animals. Some however may not be (studies show that pH can have a large influence upon elemental uptake by corals) and this lack of incorporation can lead to a build up of these trace elements over time. We may actually speed up the "old tank syndrome" by adding trace elements to our aquariums and therefore sending some of the trace element levels to their lethal levels even sooner.

Does this mean we should break down our tanks and restart them every 4 years?
No I don't think so, water changes can help correct the unbalance, just remember use the purest water available to do the change. Some Compounds will also precipitate out of solution when their levels get to high so doing water changes may take awhile to show any results. Remember good old diffusion and osmosis are natural processes and they are at work in our tanks all the time.

There are good Heavy metal removers, Phosphate removers, ect. on the market these days that can be used to help correct such overdoses of Trace elements. The main thing we need now is ready supplies of high quality additives that have little contamination, This is very important when we use things like Calcium and Kalk. Reactors. We also need trace additives that are formulated for use in tanks using LSB and reactors. (personally I dont put trace element additives into my aquariums).

A correctly set up tank that after 4 years shows signs of continued decline is most likely one where the owner did not do proper water changes to maintain the needed water quality or neglected to consider the environmental effluences on the system.

BTW I think that one of the largest overlooked factors in heavy metal contamination is airborne Dust that can contain large amounts of heavy metals and other toxic compounds. It is also one of the largest contributors of phosphate into our aquariums.

If we keep all these factors in mind when we set up and maintain our aquariums we can overcome the
Old Tank Syndrome, so the Old tank syndrome becomes one of success and need to move on to bigger and better things rather than the demise of the reef and its inhabitants.

My 2 cents worth..Mike

Back to U master debater

 

[DK]

I would guess that problems could develop if you didn't do water changes etc. The biggest potential problem area is probably the sand bed, a likely place for toxic things to settle. Bob Stark ( apparently some years ago) had suggested replacing portions of the sand bed where you remove a small section without disturbing the rest of the sand bed and replace it with new sand. His main concern was that disturbing a sand bed would release a massive amount of bacteria into the water potentially affesting corals, SPS in particular. Assuming you siphon out that portion of the bed, you wont mess up the tank.
At this time, I have no intention of doing this. In my limited understanding, the metals are bound in organic and inorganic forms and therefore not directly toxic. Since my 7 year old tank is doing great (wich replaced a 5 year old tank) I will just wait and see......................

 

[C5H403N4]

:lol: I have 9 systems,(900gallon the largest current,250 gallon the smallest) and all are reefs.

I have had the larger and two others running for 18yrs+. I am working on a project :NH4+ +H2O-NH3 + H2O+
2NH4= + 2OH- + 3O2 -nitromonas
2h+ + 2no2- + 4h20

with the inorganic phos
po43- hpo42- = h2po4-
Ca2+ - (Mg2+

With many concentration of dissolved phos and with our super reactor +
chilled co2,ozone, we have had these tanks grow everthing and kill off All the bad system parts.
The theory of the crash sindrom is a farce, we have the results and can prove otherwise. :lol: :lol: :lol:

"Can we Fathom our reality?"

 

[Anonymous]

I wonder as well how much control he actually had over the experiment. How many people have traded live rock, swapped frags, swapped samples of sand, detrivore kits, algae etc. Who knows the history of it before you got it? Who knows if the live rock in your tank wasn't in a newbies tank for a month or two coppered and them traded back in. I've seen it happen. Unless you pick the rock from the ocean, from a clean unpolluted place, transport it all the way home and then put it in your brand new tank you can never be sure. Maybe some people are just unlucky.

Glenn

 

[C5H403N4]

We do resurch in the Philip and the locals are very mad at the Caya discussions.
They and others have been told to send copper and chem laced rock into the market. This has been seen in the Figi/Marshial Isl/Philip and through out the hobby, from the wholesale market.

This has been a closley watched problem and is now raising its ugly head.
If we all are not carefull, we will all be purchasing bad rock or selling bad rock to one another throughtout the world.

It is not the tanks that crash it is the controller behind the tank.

 

[plankton123]

As previously pointed out, It's a complex issue with many variables.

I believe Dr. Shimek's point was that heavy metal concentrations in our salt mixes, in our tanks because of the salt mixes and food we feed our tanks, are above what is normally found in natural sea water (NSW) and therefore is undesireable. [OK maybe some of his points where made with a _little_ more vigor].

The salt mixes we use and our water supplies often contain cr*p at concentrations that are not found in NSW. And, this prolly is not natural and prolly does lead to toxic levels. However, it is prolly a bit of a leap to say that x ppm of Cu, tri-EDTA, Pb, or any other polutant lead to y, since corals/fish/inverts will adapt (at least some of them).

I interpret Shimek's point as we should do everything possible to reduce the number of polutants in our tank, starting with the salt makers; since we have little control over the quality or choice with where we get our salt. I believe of all the prepared salt mixes out there there from only 2 global suppliers of the core salt?!? Yicks. 8O

Shimek and others (Strathmann 1987) have recommended not using any salt mixes made with tris-EDTA and maturing the saltwater after running it though granular activated carbon to burn up any remaining harmful organics, metals, etc. Wise words to follow. It is assumed you're using RO/DI water.

Peace...

Scott

 

[brokekyle]

hmmm?? all I can say is.. DSB for 8 years and no problems

 

[randy holmes-farley]

I recently had a very extensive debate with Ron as to whether his metal numbers necessarily mean toxicity in reef tanks:

http://www.reefcentral.net/vbulletin/sh ... did=100591

As to the "syndrome", I don't know if old tank syndrome is an issue or not (i.e., whether it is a generally real phenomenon or not). If so, I can think of many reasons that it could be:

1. Toxic metals build up, as Ron has asserted.

2. Toxic organics build up.

3. A slow lowering of macroscopic biodiversity, leading to a system more prone to problems, just as monoculture farming is.

4. A slow buildup of undesirable bacteria and other microorgansims that begin to dominate the system in undesirable ways.

5. A slow loss of desirable bacteria and other microorgansims that leave the system lacking certain chemical and biological protection against offending microorgansims or chemicals.

6. A slow loss of needed nutrients (metals like iron, or manganese, etc.).

7. A slow coating of all calcium carbonate surfaces with excess phosphate and organics (and maybe other things).

8. The purely stastical certainty that the longer a tank is around, the more likely that it is to pick up something really nasty, from pathogenic bacteria to flatworms to the acro-eating amphipods.

Some of these will be altered by fiddling with the sand, others will not. Only number 1 will be impacted by low metal salt mixes, and even that one will need help from all of the other things that will not also add impurities (like calcium additions).

 

[spongeboob]

I certainly don't know as much about the subject as you all seem to, but I would think if it isn't broke don't fix it. It sounds like there are definantly some things we can look for and test for after several years of running a tank to determine if there is a problem and if drastic measures are called for. :?