article in Marine Fish 2002 annual magazine????
- Thread starter chris_h
- Start date
Lynn I wish I had the discipline to setup my tank up like R. Harkers. When I bought my 240 thats how I wanted it to look. But my corals are much smaller and I wanted more hiding places for my fish. Plus I have too many "weed" type corals really just too many corals. I don't see why you would need much rock the most powerful wastewater treatment plants use no substrate just large tanks of aerated water. With the sand to handle the nitrates such a system should work. Bill W
anyone want to post a link to this article ? I always run about 1 lb a gallon and most people think thats low
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Ferrari 312PB
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Ferrari 312PB
The bacteria that colonize rock and sand are the same. There is a whole lot more surface area in the sand than there is in the rock. For years people used only LR and skimmer with no substrate, the classic Berlin method. Adding sand gives more surface area for bacteria to colonize so the rock is not needed for the filtration that it performs. That is not to say the critters in the rock aren't needed. They help with detritus, food scrap, etc. I look foreward to the day I can set up a large tank and use a cross between his method and Steve Tyree's using a cryptic zone.
Found the article by Richard Harker very interesting. The part I have questions about its this: quoted from the article "It is also now clear that much less rock is needed (or perhaps no rock at all) for biological filtration if the systtem has a substrate such as aragonite sand on the bottom." Is this the newest or what?? whats your opinions on this.
Veng68, our Chapters has ZERO fish mags....this is not fair.
I simply can't go into a Petcetera or Petsmart here...it's bloody awful.
And our Big Al's is another huge story. But...so far, no mag. One guy laughed at me and said "2002" - not quite YET....
Sigh...Maybe January as you say..something to look forward to !!
I simply can't go into a Petcetera or Petsmart here...it's bloody awful.
And our Big Al's is another huge story. But...so far, no mag. One guy laughed at me and said "2002" - not quite YET....
Sigh...Maybe January as you say..something to look forward to !!
EmilyB,
You could always contact Fancy Publishing at http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/default.asp
I think you can order it directly from them.
I agree that going into a petcetra/petsmart or Big Al's is pretty depessing but hey have some uses (like getting the Annual every year).
Good Luck.
Cheers,
Veng68
You could always contact Fancy Publishing at http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/default.asp
I think you can order it directly from them.
I agree that going into a petcetra/petsmart or Big Al's is pretty depessing but hey have some uses (like getting the Annual every year).
Good Luck.
Cheers,
Veng68
Aside from aesthetics, the primary purpose of live rock is to provide nitrification and denitrification, particularly denitrification. On the reef the two occur more or less simultaneously. Where ever nitrite is created, there's denitrification bacteria nearby that quickly consume the nitrate.
In a substrate-less tank, most of this occurs on a thin veneer of rock. There's little denitrification deeper in the rock because the nitrite is consumed before it can penetrate the rock, so we don't need as much rock as has been preached even in a substrate-less reef tank.
In a tank with substrate, the rock is even less useful. Most denitrifacation occurs in the sand (and even gravel). The reason most denitrification occurs in the sand is that diffusion is greater in sand (not so much because of the greater surface area, although the two are related). That is, the nitrite can reach more bacteria in sand than in rock. Since the bacteria gets first dibs on the nitrite by virtue of water motion, there's little left that is broken down by the live rock.
All this takes place in the first inch or two of sand, so it is not a deep bed that changes the dynamics, it is the presence of any sand. A deeper sand bed provides little additional benefit because the nitrite is consumed before it has a chance to diffuse any deeper.
Richard Harker
In a substrate-less tank, most of this occurs on a thin veneer of rock. There's little denitrification deeper in the rock because the nitrite is consumed before it can penetrate the rock, so we don't need as much rock as has been preached even in a substrate-less reef tank.
In a tank with substrate, the rock is even less useful. Most denitrifacation occurs in the sand (and even gravel). The reason most denitrification occurs in the sand is that diffusion is greater in sand (not so much because of the greater surface area, although the two are related). That is, the nitrite can reach more bacteria in sand than in rock. Since the bacteria gets first dibs on the nitrite by virtue of water motion, there's little left that is broken down by the live rock.
All this takes place in the first inch or two of sand, so it is not a deep bed that changes the dynamics, it is the presence of any sand. A deeper sand bed provides little additional benefit because the nitrite is consumed before it has a chance to diffuse any deeper.
Richard Harker
Lynn,
I would be very much appreciative if you can tell me where you purchased the 2002 annual in Edmonton, so I can shame each and every LFS in Calgary, where I have been trying to purchase it, actually for a MH bulb review. I would be happy to compensate you for any costs to get me a copy if you could...
I would be very much appreciative if you can tell me where you purchased the 2002 annual in Edmonton, so I can shame each and every LFS in Calgary, where I have been trying to purchase it, actually for a MH bulb review. I would be happy to compensate you for any costs to get me a copy if you could...
Emily B,
I purchased my copy in the local Chapters book store but in past years I've found it at Petcetra, Petsmart, and Big Al's. It just takes some places longer to get them. I remember getting mine last year form chapters in January and the LFS did not get it for another month. Good luck.
Cheers,
Veng68
I purchased my copy in the local Chapters book store but in past years I've found it at Petcetra, Petsmart, and Big Al's. It just takes some places longer to get them. I remember getting mine last year form chapters in January and the LFS did not get it for another month. Good luck.
Cheers,
Veng68
I got mine at PJ's petstore. I can send you a copy if you can't find one. Just let me know. I know that chapters here carries it and petsmart. I'm going away till almost Xmas (going to see the reefs in Mexico!!) You can e-mail me if you need me to send it.. [email protected]
p.s. I really liked the look of his tank (although being a 2000 gal is so very impressive anyways!) but not to have ALL that rock I think is great!!He makes sense to me. And when I do get my 180 I'm going to plan it that way.
Lynn
p.s. I really liked the look of his tank (although being a 2000 gal is so very impressive anyways!) but not to have ALL that rock I think is great!!He makes sense to me. And when I do get my 180 I'm going to plan it that way.
Lynn
Greg Hiller
Just a bum in Boston
- Location
- Wakefield, MA
Richard,
First, I'll admit I haven't seen a copy of the article....but...
We've had this debate before. Do you really believe that the only 'biological' purpose that live rock serves is to convert/remove nitrogenous wastes? I think that there is a lot more going on in live rock. I don't really have any wild collected live rock in my tanks anymore, but the rocks I add to my tank are quite porous, and quickly become thoroughly encrusted with filterfeeding sponges (many species) and a whole range of other filterfeeding organisms, and ecosystems, that I don't see at all in or on the sand. Seems to me a tank would suffer greatly without the extra filtration that these organisms provide. Of course, you could always go back to canister filters, UV, ozone, tons of carbon, etc...but you'd have to take me that way kicking and screaming. You could also I suppose use bioballs that had been encrusted by filter feeding organisms if you really liked the look of a bare tank.
- Greg Hiller
First, I'll admit I haven't seen a copy of the article....but...
We've had this debate before. Do you really believe that the only 'biological' purpose that live rock serves is to convert/remove nitrogenous wastes? I think that there is a lot more going on in live rock. I don't really have any wild collected live rock in my tanks anymore, but the rocks I add to my tank are quite porous, and quickly become thoroughly encrusted with filterfeeding sponges (many species) and a whole range of other filterfeeding organisms, and ecosystems, that I don't see at all in or on the sand. Seems to me a tank would suffer greatly without the extra filtration that these organisms provide. Of course, you could always go back to canister filters, UV, ozone, tons of carbon, etc...but you'd have to take me that way kicking and screaming. You could also I suppose use bioballs that had been encrusted by filter feeding organisms if you really liked the look of a bare tank.
- Greg Hiller
Whoa nelly Greg. What you are saying (and I quite rightly agree with you) is that Live Rock provides hard bottom substrate. Filter feeding organisms can recruit onto this substrate.
Then you go on to equate not providing this substrate to going back to the stone age of using ozone, canister filters, etc.
I think some of us...myself included might have missed the logical connection. Can you perhaps explain?
Cheers
James
Then you go on to equate not providing this substrate to going back to the stone age of using ozone, canister filters, etc.
I think some of us...myself included might have missed the logical connection. Can you perhaps explain?
Cheers
James
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