phosphate/silicate removers?

[zeldapinwheel]

Does anyone have a recommendation about phosphate/silicate removers? I am having problems controlling algae growth in my system and this is the next thing I am thinking of trying.

I am running a dual-biowheel filter, a new protein skimmer, and performing weekly water changes of 5%-10% on my 45 gallon system. I have mostly green hair algae and a little of a red slimy algae in my system. I also go through the tank daily and siphon out what I can with a turkey baster and/or razor blade. Among the fish in my aquarium, I have 2 herbivores- a yellow tang and lawnmower blenny- so I do not want to totally destroy the blenny's source of food, obviously. The tang readily eats dried algae formulations, so not as much of a concern. I have several mushroom rocks, a clove polyp, cup coral, frogspawn, and I don't want to hurt them, either. Other tank cleaners include hermit crabs, snails, and an emerald crab, cleaner shrimp. Is a phosphate/silicate remover the next best step? Also, I have about 1-2 inches of live sand at the bottom, would adding more be helpful to this problem?

Thank you for your comments in advance! I know the topic of algae has been covered on the chat channel; I have read many transcripts to take me this far and am just hopeful some of you will have some more experience to lend to my question?

 

[dustint]

Well we have almost the same setup, except mines a 29 gallon. I actually want to get a 45 or 50 gallon show someday

But I have the dual wheel emporer(wheels removed), a new redsea berlin skimmer with 2 55watt pc's white and a 20watt fl actinic.

I have been fighting a micro algae problem for a few months now. Phosphate remover entered my regimate and Ive been pleased with its results. I got into a routine of removing large clumps of green hair by hand, then taking a toothbrush attached to a siphon and scrub the rocks and do a 10% water change. Of course I test for everything, but with your question I immediatly noticed my phosphates drop.

I use SeaChem PhosGuard, which are small white balls that turn yellow when fully absorbed with phosphate(claims to not leach anything into water). I use about a quarter of the small bottle($8) in a container in the emporer, and replace this once a week. And of course test right before I change it to see how high it has risen if at all. You'll notice the media turns an almost dark yellow, and you know your removing phosphate.

Another tip, although im sure you know this, is really try and see if you have any dead current spots in the aquarium. Also remove or reorganize any pieces of live rock that collect detrius etc and dont allow good flow. This has helped me alot, although I am still getting a little growth, its nothing like before.

Good luck...

Dustin

 

[zeldapinwheel]

Thanks for your input. I'm definitely going to try your suggestions; they were very helpful. How did you rig your toothbrush/siphon contraption?

 

[ddavis4um]

I have tried a couple of products that supposedly removes red algae in particular. The best one is a dry product that seems to pull out the silicates and the red algae is gone until the tank becomes "over-nutrified" again.
The product is available from Pet Warehouse, called chem-pure, or something like that.

I have two tanks that I have tried it on. I have used it about 3-4 times on my reef tank. The only suspected mortality might have been some X-mass tree worms but that cannot be separated from other, not-so-good water quality issues- after all, I was in the midst of a red -algal-tied. Otherwise, everyone healthy- frog spawn, hard corals, soft corals.

Water changes always followed in 24-48 hours too.

Good luck.

 

[esmithiii]

First, how old is the system? Many systems that are under a year experience blooms that are short-lived in nature.

Second, you need to address the root of the problem, not look for a quick fix. The problem is that you have a nutrient import/export imballance that is fuelling the algae. Your biowheel is a big part of the problem. It is a nitrate sink. It is very good at turning toxic ammonia to toxic nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, too good maybe. The nitrate has nowhere to go except to be consumed by the algae which you scrape up and siphon out.

Do you have a sand bed (referred to by many here as a DSB)? Sand beds if done correctly can process the nitrate before the algae has a chance to. Have you tested for nitrates? If you have crushed coral or crushed shell then that too is a nitrate trap. Detritus falls between the cracks and turns into nitrates. Crushed coral or shell does not support the life needed to process all the detritus.

The second place to look is your water. Do you use RO/DI water for water changes and for top offs? If not you are probably dumping nutrients into the water in the form of phosphates. A phosphate sponge will pull some out but you will be dumping more in every week if you don't use RO/DI water.

How much liverock do you have? Do you have any macro-algae like caulerpa in the tank? Macro algaes also consume the nutrients in the water and compete with the algaes you are now battling. I have a sump that is lit in which I grow macro algae. When it gets thick, I prune. Some goes to my tang, the rest in the trash can. This effectively exports those excess nutrients before the microalgae can use it.

The next place to look is your feeding schedule. Overfeeding will fuel the nitrate problem. The problem is that reef fish eat all the time in nature. To be healthy in home aquaria they should eat enough. I prefer to feed less but more often.

Do you have a sump?

Ernie

 

[esmithiii]

Zeldapinwheel:

Hows the algae problem going?

E

 

[loonz]

Hi, one thing about the Seachem phosguard. On the label it says that it can be reused after drying, but I'm not too sure about that.Has anyone actually tested the usefulness of this product after baking or whatever methods?Thanks for your inputs.

 

[zeldapinwheel]

Thanks for following up with me on this issue, Ernie. I was out of town, so I delayed.
The history on my system is as follows: it is 15 months old. After having the system up for 4 months, I discovered a mantis shrimp in my tank, (the LFS that sold it to me promised that the rock was cured- it was not killed properly before curing) so the whole thing had to be taken down and the rock re-cured. So that happened 11 months ago. After that happened, I experienced the algae bloom again.
I have a sand bed- about 30 lbs of sand, which is about 1.5-2 inches in my system. I also have about 75 lbs of live rock in the 45 gallon system.
Water quality parameters are checked often- I have never had a problem with nitrate, nitrite, pH, alkalinity, or Calcium levels. I do not have a sump on this system. THere is not any macroalgae to speak of, really- maybe one or two bubble alga, but they are small. Coralline algae abounds- it is growing on everything- rocks, snails, powerhead cage, etc. The sponges and filter feeder worms in the tank are also doing really well, multiplying and getting larger. The sand bed has a sifting star.

I think that my problem is that I assumed that since all my water quality parameters were good that I would see the algae bloom go away. It did not, and now, as some algae dies, it re-releases phosphates in the tank to fuel more algae growth. At first I let it go, and then it got ahead of me.

I feed my fish twice a day, but very sparingly- only what they can eat in a very short time.

What I have done is to add the Phosgard to the filter media. In one week it has cut my phosphates in half, and I am measuring it again this weekend when I change it. I am not reusing it- too big a pain. I am also doing water changes, and every other day or so I am aspirating out the algae. I *think* I may be getting ahead of it.

I use DI water.

Hope you read this and supply anymore feedback you have. Thanks!

Sara

 

[AnotherGoldenTeapot]

I've used Phosguard - nice product IMO. Just be sure to rinse it before you add it - the dust does irritate leathers.

Once the product has been exhausted it can not be recharged using the sorts of tempreature you can acheive in your own house - Seachem's webist say this anyway.

 

[AnotherGoldenTeapot]

It always amazes me how the text I see I have typed only slightly correlates with what my brain thought it had typed.

 

[FishDaddy]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I discovered a mantis shrimp in my tank, (the LFS that sold it to me promised that the rock was cured- it was not killed properly before curing) so the whole thing had to be taken down and the rock re-cured.

Sara,
I'm a bit confused by what you meant by "not killed properly"

Live rock is not "killed" during the curing process. Curing is simply keeping the rock in circulated saltwater while any organic matter that dies during shipping decays, rendering the rock fairly safe for putting into your tank without triggering an Ammonia spike. There is much beneficial life in cured rock: bacteria; pods; worms; coralline algae; etc., all of which makes the rock "live". Curing rock is not intended to kill off invertebrates, such as a Mantis shrimp.

What did you do to "re-cure" the rock?
Dick

 

[Mouse]

Sorry to be a natzi, but your tank is only a third of the size required to keep a tang. There very fast moving fish and require allot of swimming space. Their nutritional requirements mean that they produce allot of waste, probably double that of a fish of simmilar size.

IMO id get it out ASAP before you start to add to many corals and breaking down the tank becomes a real mission.

The fish may seem happy for the minuite, and i know your LFS probably told you it was ok. But then again they also sold you a tank with live rock and additional redundant Biological filtration in the form of the wheels. This is probably the cause of most of your algie worries anyways. If you do have live rock in the tank you want to remove the biowheels from the system as the Live rock will supply 80% of your denitrification needs. The other 20% sould be some sort of oxygen free zone (either phlenum or deep sand bed) this will provide you with total denitrification down to a gas. The biowheels are only going to screw things up.

Anyway, back to the tang. Essentially it wont live for longer than a few years, its growth will be stunted and its just not cricket really.

 

[zeldapinwheel]

Well, I know that there are many beneficial life forms that come in on live rock- the curing process, as I have been told, is to get rid of things that cannot survive it, like mantis shrimps, bristle worms, etc, that are harmful to livestock. I have not been back to the LFS that sold it to me. That store was an abomination.


When I re-cured my rock, I took it out of the tank, brought it to another LFS who agreed to re-cure it for me (for free!) since I had been one of their better customers. They put it away for a day away from light and just in standing water (kills off everything, and makes "good things" dormant) and then put it in a big tub of running water for 3 weeks. I then put it back in my tank. The store also 'boarded' my corals for me while this was going on. That was essentially the only way, I was told, that I could be certain of getting any mantis shrimp out of there. In fact, the owners of this second store told me that when they recured the rock, in addition to mantis shrimp, they also saw a great many bristle worms come off the rock, too. Since this re-curing process, there have been no more issues with "fish disappearances" so I have to assert that it worked.

The re-curing process did not harm the rock at all, I found. The coralline algaes and feather dusters came back out, as well as some yellow and blue sponges that had never started growing.

As for the tang, yes, now that I have it, I found out (of course after the fact) that I should have it in a tank with 4 ft of swimming space. But, what do I do? I don't know anyone who will take it- and if I take it back to the LFS they will just sell it to someone else who shouldn't have it. I feel like I made a commitment to take care of it. Getting it out of the tank doesn't bother me, I don't mind the work if it is best for the fish, but what do I do with it? Do you want to adopt it? I don't mind giving it away to someone who has the system for it, as long as I am comfortable knowing the fish will be happier there. So, instead of berating me for having it, tell me what I should do. I can't afford a new system, so that is out. Does it matter at all that the tang's only company is a basslet and a clown fish, and a lawn mower blenny? It does have the run of the place.

Why is it that you guys feel the biowheels contribute to the algae problem? I have live rock and a sand bed, so how does the biological filtration get 'overridden' by the biowheel?

 

[SaltHead]

This might be of some help. First ,How much flow do you have in your tank ,from what I have seen when someone has a red slime problem and/or a hair alge problem ,upping the flow will almost always do the trick. I have a 29 gal tank with a 10 gal sump. Flow for the system is powered by two Maxi-jet 1200's ,one per side ,a cap 800 behind the rocks ,and a cap 1800 for the return ,placed in the back middle. This = about 48 turns per hour. So you might try adding another powerhead. If the detritus cannot settle on the rocks it cannot be as big a problem. For an extra hand I also have 2 cucumbers that help clean the rocks ,one cucumber that filters the water ,and 5 brittle stars , 2 serpent stars and 6 pepermint shrimp that help clean up any leftover food. As for the tang. I have a yellow tang + a clown + 3 green chromis + a square spot anthias. MANY corals ,from assorted mushrooms and leathers to staghorns and other acros. ALL of which are doing just fine in the confines of a 29 gal. Hope this helps!!!

C Mitchell

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Well, I know that there are many beneficial life forms that come in on live rock- the curing process, as I have been told, is to get rid of things that cannot survive it, like mantis shrimps, bristle worms, etc, that are harmful to livestock.

First, bristle worms are a good thing; they process detritus and uneaten food and IMO are an important part of the mini-ecosystem.

Properly curing the Live Rock will not kill mantis shrimp. I am not so clear as to what the second LFS did to the rock to kill the mantis. The curing process is intended to allow all the rotting dead matter on the rock that died during transportation to completely decompose before sticking the rock into your display tank.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I have a sand bed- about 30 lbs of sand, which is about 1.5-2 inches in my system.

A sand bed under 4" is ineffective in processing nitrates. I would add another 3 inches.

I feel quite confident that the bio-wheel is part of the problem. Also, DI water may be adding organics to your water. Have it tested.

The bio-wheel is converting ammonia to nitrites and then nitrites to nitrates. It is a very effective filter, but it stops there. Your sand bed is unable to convert the nitrate to hydrogen sulfide gas (which escapes into the atmosphere.)

You said that you didn't have a nitrate problem. What was the reading? My tank reads 0.

Ernie

 

[jethro]

Since the Humane Society doesn't seem to have a problem with keeping Shamu in a swimming pool, I don't feel guilty about having my tang in a 38 gallon tank.

 

[zeldapinwheel]

My nitrates are also 0.

 

[zeldapinwheel]

I was told that bristleworms eat corals, and therefore are not a good hitchhiker to have in the tank. Is this not true?

At any rate, after 2 weeks of using the phosgard, the phosphate levels have dropped ten-fold, from 0.2 to 0.02 ppm. I am getting the hair algae out of the tank and it seems that it is not coming back.

 

[PManz]

Well I 'spose I could toss in my two cents...

I have 29 g with 2 powersweep powerheads, a prizm skimmer, (2) 65wPC's 30lbs of LR I cured myself , and a 3 to 4 inch DSB. I have no sump, refugium, carbon, plenum or other filtration.

I use Aquarium Pharm Tap water purifier for top off water. I don't want to sound cocky but the tank is lucky to get a 10% water change once a month.

I feed what i consider to be heavily. That is: 1 cube of frozen fish food, 1 TBS of Marine snow and 1TBS of DT's phytoplankton daily. I have 3 fish and about 10 corals including a clam and one SPS species. I also add trace elements weekly.

Initially I had a small problem with red slime algae but removal of my emporer 280 w bio wheel and the addition of a queen conch snail took care of all of that. I was lucky to get some nice Macro algae with the LR which I prune every once in a while to export nitrates. It seems to me that things went better when I ditched the power filiter and went bare bones on the filtration system.

Also, the sand sifting star isn't going to help you with your DSB as it will eat most of the microfauna you need. I have had nice success with Nassarius snails. They burrow in the DSB and like to come out when I feed and clean up the left overs the fish don't snatch up. (That and the fact that I think the Macro is pretty are the reasons I feed heavily)

What do you have as a clean-up crew in your tank? A well thought out clean up crew could take care of a lot of the other algae.

Best of luck...
Paul

 

[PManz]

Oops...
I meant 1/2 TBS each of Marine Snow and DT's Live Phytoplankton.

Sorry...
Paul