A real good question for those who are well read.

[Josh's Reef]

After 16 years of reef keeping I switched back to a FO(my infant son now has most of my time). I have read pretty much all there is out there, as well as monthly articles. Here is the problem; I got rid of my live rock (and just added a ton of coral skeletons(not the real stuff b/c I care about the reefs), I filled my sump with bio-balls and I am still running my AEROFOAMER 830. I know the bio-balls will create nitrate, so how do I export them?
I have heard and read conflicting reports on a DSB. The latest coming from The Consciencious Aquariest(or however you spell it) in the live sand section under filtration. Who reports that DSB are good nitrate reducers, but when he speaks of FO tanks with fish loads he suggest a light vacuming as well as changing the sand after a year or two.\
Can you have an effective DSB (nitrate reducer) in a FO no live rock system? Is fish waste to much to handle? How much water and how often would you change in this type of system? Would macro algae help the cause(probably need to cover the tank bottom)? And if you think a DSB or live DSB would help what kind of critters would you use to stir it up? Dont forget we have large wrasses and triggers. Only large hermit crabs come to mind.
Thank you.

 

[Mouse]

Or you could get something like an Aquamedic Denitrification tower, they denitrify the water in an Oxygen free zone transforming it into Nitrogen gas. You may find this a little better suited to an FO system.

 

[Josh's Reef]

Who has used a dentrator? I hear they clog readily, and are nothing more than 50-100 ft of airline tubing. I thank you for the input. If Im not mistaken thay too thrive on anerobic bacteria like a DSB. I would however be avoiding a detritus buildup in the sand.

 

[Ben1]

Why are you worried about Nirate? A FO system is very acceptable at 20 ppm of Nitrate, it wont go over this level as long as you do your water changes. A DSB cant hurt as wrasses love to dive and hide under the sand. As long as you dont overfeed, you wont have a PO2 problem so you wont have an algea problem. HTH

 

[Anonymous]

Most fish commmonly kept in fish only systems (i.e. wrasses and triggers) really aren't that susceptible to nitrate anyway. They can withstand much higher levels and can usually be maintained just through water changes. Unless you are going to keep some extrememly delicate species or are going to really overload the tank, I wouldn't worry about it.

Glenn

 

[afss]

The way the DSB works is through the creatures that live in it and continually "work" the sand. If you don't seed the bed, or if you have fish that will dig in the bed for food such as the bedds live inhabitants, then I would think that its ability to process the nitrates could be hampered.
What about a sump. If you have a sump you could put reverse lighting on it and grow carlurpas etc in it as a form of nitrate export.
Scott
_________________
grand daddy purple marijuana

 

[Josh's Reef]

I mentioned triggers and wrasses only as a heads up as to the type of fish that I might keep in the future that are critter eaters. The things that make live sand what it is.
So you guys think that a DSB is only effective in a reef type tank where the fish load is on the lighter side and that it cant compete with a FO load?

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

So you guys think that a DSB is only effective in a reef type tank where the fish load is on the lighter side and that it cant compete with a FO load?

I think that a DSB is only neccessary in a reef tank. It is not essential to maintain nitrate levels at zero in a FO tank as the inhabitants don't require it. And for the reasons you mentioned earlier it is often not very practical to maintain a DSB in a FO tank.

IMO...
Glenn

 

[Kitta]

Instead of trying to remove nitrate, isn't it better to spend the money on buy a better skimmer so nitrate wonldn't be a problem?

 

[Anonymous]

For your system I would rely mostly on your trickle filter (

) , skimmer, and water changes for nutrient export. Unless you just want a DSB for fun. Without the live rock in the tank, you need the surface area and waste processing of the bioballs (

). It sounds to me like the whole reason you took this approach was due to time constaints and I think an inline DSB caulerpa refugium would probably take up more time than it's worth. There really is no reason to maintain a nitrate level of zero in an FO tank. You will export your nitrates primarily through water changes (around every two weeks depending on your bioload) and partially through your skimmer. Make it simple and enjoy the time with your son.

Glenn

 

[afss]

It was my understanding that a DSB did more filtering than the live rocks did. Is this wrong?
Scott
_________________
reccession

 

[Crazyman]

I am trying to come to some kind of conclussion as to whether or not DSB is effective in a FO system. There are no complete published studies as of yet.
Kitta . what type of protien skimmer do you have on your tank? It was my understanding after a years of reaserching products that the AEROFOAMER 830 is one of the larger and more powerfull skimmers on the market (without going custom). Not to mention its design wich entails downdraft, with a swirling chamber,sump type base, and a removable beckets air valve. Maybe you have a better suggestion? I would be happy to spend another $900 setting up a new skimmer.

I dont want to achieve a nitrate reding of 0ppm. I just want to know if a DSB will reduce nitrates enough to buy me another 2-4 weeks between water changes. As I dont have that much time for my tank any more. Once again I am not trying to avoid water changes all together-)) Just create a more self sustaining system.

 

[Crazyman]

We have all heard of people not changing the water in their reefs for a year+. Help me and fellow hobbiests create a FO system that can do that too.

 

[Kitta]

Phatfish,
My suggestion didn't mean that your skimmer isn't good. My idea was if skimming can remove all or most of the waste in the water, then nitrate is not going to be a problem.
I know my Turbofloter for my 120g isn't good enough, but no money to upgrade

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I just want to know if a DSB will reduce nitrates enough to buy me another 2-4 weeks between water changes.

Yes, but.....

It will strongly depend on your stocking level and what kind of fish your going to keep. If it's gonna be a reef minus the inverts, then it would probably work. If it's gonna be a tank full of big show fish or predatory types then the DSB would probably get eaten as well. Also depending on what you stock you could probably get away with one water change a month as long as you are using R/O for your top off. Just don't overstock.Without live rock in the tank the surface area of the trickle filter will be more than adequate for a heavily fed tank, especially if you have a decent skimmer.

Glenn

 

[Anonymous]

A protein skimmer removes organics that are protein. It does not remove all waste. Some feel free to correct e but I do not think there is a protein skimmer in the market that can remove all wastee before the Ammonia - Nitrite - Nitrate cycle begins.

I would be most concerned with a good system.

If you built a large enough refugium I am sure you could get away from water changes all together, but then as Glenn said you are defeating the purpose of less time in maintanace.

For your fellow FO keepers a deep sand bed, Live rock and various waste exporting plants in a refugium would save water changes but in the long run you would get off much easier with a good wet/dry filter and water changes.

 

[Darkreignn]

I'd go with a little refugium in or next to the sump full of calerpa. This algae will absorb the nitrates which in turn will take care of your little problem there. Only thing it grows really fast, you have to be on top of it and not let it go crazy. Trim it every once and a while and feed it to your Tang, they love it. It worked wonders for me on my 38 gallon tank till I gave up and decided to go bigger (125 gallon hehe). Its not set up yet but when it does I am planning to use calerpa on it. Oh and I had whats called grape calerpa. Ok bye...

 

[Crazyman]

Thamks guys I think I have all the info I need for now.