why southdown why not silica?
- Thread starter Grandczar
- Start date
IMO regardless if it won't make diatoms grow like crazy or leach anything into the water i would only use calcium carbonate based sand in my reef. With deep sandbeds the pH becomes low in the lower depths from biological activity and some calcium and carbonates are released into the water column. Of course thats a good thing but it's also whats going on in natural reefs. Theres probably other reasons, not like the release of small amounts of calcium is that big of a deal (still have to dose), but it's the way it is in the ocean, why stop natural processes with inert media just to save some money? Bottom line for me is that silica sand just ain't natural reef sand. Do what you please, just my 2 cents.
I talked to a guy the other week who used silica for his DSB. He said he had diatom blooms on his SB the entire time he used it...switched it over to arAgonite and hasn't had them since. I would rather not take the chance. And as far as what the ocean uses for it's sandbeds...that's kind of a pointless argument. There's a lot more going on in the ocean than we could ever dream of replicating in out tanks.
My sandbed is silica and I have zero problems after 8 months in the new tank. No diatoms to speak of, and the sand critters don't seem to mind either. I have a 300 gal and I wansn't going to spend $35 a bag for aragonite. Instead, spent $4 for 100lb bag of pure white silica. I also use a Bullet 3 skimmer to maintain great water quality along with a 5 stage RO/DI. Regardless of sandbed, you still have to buffer a reef tank.
monkeyboy:
Let's make a bet. You put several grains of Aragonite into some vinegar and water, when they dissolve we'll continue the conversation on the sands buffering capacity and calcium supplementing capabilities (why wait, Grab a Snickers, cause your gonna wait a LONNNGGGG time). As for diatom blooms, i would watch what sand you buy. There are things in "non-pure" silica that could cause as many problems as using tap water. (The previous statments were no flames, just my feeling obtained from R. Shimek and E. Borneman.)
IME with my first 10 gal tank, the silica sand from HD was exceptional. It did have a bad case of diatoms and cyano, but that could have been contributed to my initial heavy feeding before "full" population took effect. Also could have been caused by my inexperience. Well, after 3 years, that sandbed is unmatched of contents of life/area by any LFS, nearby mail order (it's great being in the middle of Indiana with Premium Aquatics, Inland Aquatics, and Harbor Aquatics), or any friend's aquarium. So, yes it can be done. If your on the West coast and need to fill a 300 gal. tank, i'd go silica before i would even consider paying the price of Aragonite from a LFS or being shipped in by HD.
Now that's said, i still didn't say i don't or wouldn't go out of my way to use it. I made a trip one weekend to Maine to satisfy my "lobster" tooth and drove down the coast in search of Southdown. I found it in Maryland and bought 10 bags, some for the new 55 gal and some to have on hand. Remember that i'm 8+ hours away from the East coast, so yes i'm as crazy about SD as anyone else.
Whatever you choose, you'll be satisfied.
Just my $0.02.
DW302
Let's make a bet. You put several grains of Aragonite into some vinegar and water, when they dissolve we'll continue the conversation on the sands buffering capacity and calcium supplementing capabilities (why wait, Grab a Snickers, cause your gonna wait a LONNNGGGG time). As for diatom blooms, i would watch what sand you buy. There are things in "non-pure" silica that could cause as many problems as using tap water. (The previous statments were no flames, just my feeling obtained from R. Shimek and E. Borneman.)
IME with my first 10 gal tank, the silica sand from HD was exceptional. It did have a bad case of diatoms and cyano, but that could have been contributed to my initial heavy feeding before "full" population took effect. Also could have been caused by my inexperience. Well, after 3 years, that sandbed is unmatched of contents of life/area by any LFS, nearby mail order (it's great being in the middle of Indiana with Premium Aquatics, Inland Aquatics, and Harbor Aquatics), or any friend's aquarium. So, yes it can be done. If your on the West coast and need to fill a 300 gal. tank, i'd go silica before i would even consider paying the price of Aragonite from a LFS or being shipped in by HD.
Now that's said, i still didn't say i don't or wouldn't go out of my way to use it. I made a trip one weekend to Maine to satisfy my "lobster" tooth and drove down the coast in search of Southdown. I found it in Maryland and bought 10 bags, some for the new 55 gal and some to have on hand. Remember that i'm 8+ hours away from the East coast, so yes i'm as crazy about SD as anyone else.
Whatever you choose, you'll be satisfied.
Just my $0.02.
DW302
I've never used anything but silica sand. Been doing this about ten years. Never had a problem. Most of the folks who will say you must use aragonite have never tried silica. The southdown craze is just another one of these things where people read on this board that it is the "right" way to do it, and they begin to repeat this any time silica sand is mentioned. Make your own choice, but silica works. Period. Those who say it doesn't most likely haven't tried it. They've just been brainwashed
I had a small tank set up with a 6 inch sand bed of the local "play sand" from Home Despot. Although the sand was nearly pure silica in origin, I did not have any problems with algae nor diatom blooms that everyone seems to be concerned with.
The article is interesting, hopefully people will begin to realize that alot of what we are being fed as aquarists is BS designed to make bucks.
Also, when people are on holy grail-like quests for Southdown sand, why not consider crushed limestone? It is calcium carbonate too.
The article is interesting, hopefully people will begin to realize that alot of what we are being fed as aquarists is BS designed to make bucks.
Also, when people are on holy grail-like quests for Southdown sand, why not consider crushed limestone? It is calcium carbonate too.
cwa46,
The sand around coral reefs in Florida is not mostly silica. In fact, it is mostly aragonitic chloralgal sediments much larger than those prescribed for deep sandbeds. Sediments smaller than 2 mm are strained and removed by energies. I'm also a bit confused by your statement that the buffering properties of aragonite. It does indeed occur, and is the foundation for hermatypic element maintenance in the Jaubert system, in which organic acids produced by biological activity do dissolve the aragonitic sand (of proper size might I add
) into its elemental/ionic components.
The sand around coral reefs in Florida is not mostly silica. In fact, it is mostly aragonitic chloralgal sediments much larger than those prescribed for deep sandbeds. Sediments smaller than 2 mm are strained and removed by energies. I'm also a bit confused by your statement that the buffering properties of aragonite. It does indeed occur, and is the foundation for hermatypic element maintenance in the Jaubert system, in which organic acids produced by biological activity do dissolve the aragonitic sand (of proper size might I add
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I've never heard of anyone who has been able to rely solely on an aragonite sandbed to maintain desired alk and calcium levels. Does aragonite dissolve and add some buffering effect? Probably. Does it do away with the need for other supplements? Nope. So what is the big benefit here? Not much in my eyes.
I've never heard of anyone who has been able to rely solely on an aragonite sandbed to maintain desired alk and calcium levels. Does aragonite dissolve and add some buffering effect? Probably. Does it do away with the need for other supplements? Nope. So what is the big benefit here? Not much in my eyes.
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[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: galleon ]
Well, lets start with NOAA and the Center for Tropical Research in the lower Florida Keys. They rely on the Jaubert Microcean system (which uses solely the above described method for maintaining hermatypic elements at reef-quality levels, nothing else is added besides topoff, a yearly replenishment of sand, and no water changes are made other than addition of what is lost through due course of experimentation, etc.). The systems at the Center for Tropical Research maintain consistent alkalinity levels of 2.8-3.0 meq/L, the same of natural seawater. These systems are stocked with veritable caclium sinks, Acropora cervicornis, the 3 species of Montastrea, etc., and the list goes on. In other words, these systems are stocked about as densely or more so than many hobbyist's systems with calcium demanding organisms (the only difference being the oceans they come from). The trick is budgeting carbon and nutrient input to coordinate with the calcium sink efficiency of the sandbed. If the carbonate sand were not dissolving and functioning as described above, then the alkalinity would decline, as it does in a Berlin system when kalkwasser is not added nor a calcium reactor is used.
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: galleon ]
I'm no expert on natural reefs but i don't see how sand surrounding reefs could be mostly silica sand. The sand is produced by grazing fish and other critters scraping algae off the rock and chipping away small pieces of sand. Correct me if i'm wrong but corals do deposit mostly calcium carbonate, and not silica, in their skeletons and that's just whats in the rock! Natural forces also free grains, it just doesn't seem logical or make sense that reef sand almost everywhere (except around volcanos like in hawaii, no idea what the heck is in that stuff) isn't aragonite! If i'm wrong i want a good explanation because i don't see how that would work.
Whoa, I didn't say that you don't have to buffer your water or add calcium, just pointing out that these are some of the natural processes that happen in calcium based substrates, nothing more. I understand the cost issue with larger tanks and since there seems to be no problem with silica sand you could "water down" the aragonite w/ silica. Everyone does their tank a different way, i would just do mine w/ aragonite. And no i haven't used silica sand in my aquaria.
To each his own, and to me aragonite!
"I've never heard of anyone who has been able to rely solely on an aragonite sandbed to maintain desired alk and calcium levels. Does aragonite dissolve and add some buffering effect? Probably. Does it do away with the need for other supplements? Nope. So what is the big benefit here? Not much in my eyes."
Where did this come from? Who said you dont need to suppliment??!! In my first post i said you still have to dose...
Keep the posts comin!
Whoa, I didn't say that you don't have to buffer your water or add calcium, just pointing out that these are some of the natural processes that happen in calcium based substrates, nothing more. I understand the cost issue with larger tanks and since there seems to be no problem with silica sand you could "water down" the aragonite w/ silica. Everyone does their tank a different way, i would just do mine w/ aragonite. And no i haven't used silica sand in my aquaria.
To each his own, and to me aragonite!
"I've never heard of anyone who has been able to rely solely on an aragonite sandbed to maintain desired alk and calcium levels. Does aragonite dissolve and add some buffering effect? Probably. Does it do away with the need for other supplements? Nope. So what is the big benefit here? Not much in my eyes."
Where did this come from? Who said you dont need to suppliment??!! In my first post i said you still have to dose...
Keep the posts comin!
For what it's worth, I've recently set up a large tank with about half silica sand and half aragonite (over 300 lbs. each). I purchased the former at a local landscape supplier. It supposedly comes from the Oregon coast and is even finer than southdown, tho' not as white. I'm very happy with it: no diatom blooms, no water quality problems, etc., etc. In fact, if I did this again I'd use more of the Oregon coast sand since it isn't nearly as prone to blow all over the place like the Southdown. It cost $2.50/5 gallon bucket (about 60 lbs. worth)--much less in larger quantities--and so saved me a fair amount of $$.
George
George
FWIW we use 2/3 prewashed silica pool filter sand and 1/3 Aragamax for DSBs with no problems whatsoever. Pool filter sand is about $5 for 50 pounds. It is thought, however, that the sharp spots on the silica sand can be hard on microfauna. There is no appreciable difference in function between 100% silica and 100% aragonite DSB. There is, however, a big difference in on the bank account. HTH.www.lonestarcorals.com
monkeyboy,
What type sand do you think is in Hawaii? How about Florida? Both are almost totally silica. You think all of the sand in the ocean is aragonite? Also, the buffering effect of aragonite sand has hever been proven and if it does in fact help it is so small as to be useless. Many people use silica sand successfully. Take a look at these threads.... http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=18227 http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=20988
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: cwa46 ]
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: cwa46 ]
What type sand do you think is in Hawaii? How about Florida? Both are almost totally silica. You think all of the sand in the ocean is aragonite? Also, the buffering effect of aragonite sand has hever been proven and if it does in fact help it is so small as to be useless. Many people use silica sand successfully. Take a look at these threads.... http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=18227 http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=20988
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: cwa46 ]
[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: cwa46 ]
I did like Cubera did and used filter sand for my base, and then aragonite on top.
I previously had 2" to 3" depth of aragonite in my 60 gallon, and had blooms off an on.
When I moved to my 80 gallon setup, I put 150 lbs filter sand, then another 120 + lbs of aragonite sand on top (from previous tank plus some). For about a 6" DSB now. About a month into it I had good bubbles forming in the sand, and no major blooms. Now my DSB is progressing along quite well.
I will say that if money were no object, it would all be aragonite sand. No matter how much or little Ca is released from the sand, it can only be good! Of course some pickling lime is a LOT cheaper!!!
I for the most part run closed loop, only have about 40 ish lbs LR (soon to be more). And recently setup a 29 refugium with a DSB in the works.
I have a light bioload for now, and it will very slowly increase for a while. The tank seems to be QUITE a happy tank. Snails reproduce like mad. And two condalactus (sp?) are very happy and growing faster then I thought! They don't even move around, they are just happy! With one Clarkii clown that likes both of them.
I know this doesn't matter for the Ca argument (I would rather have all aragonite), but I have seen no evidence of the silica sand causing problems, and my DSB is developing great so far.
Ok, my 2¢ for today.
I previously had 2" to 3" depth of aragonite in my 60 gallon, and had blooms off an on.
When I moved to my 80 gallon setup, I put 150 lbs filter sand, then another 120 + lbs of aragonite sand on top (from previous tank plus some). For about a 6" DSB now. About a month into it I had good bubbles forming in the sand, and no major blooms. Now my DSB is progressing along quite well.
I will say that if money were no object, it would all be aragonite sand. No matter how much or little Ca is released from the sand, it can only be good! Of course some pickling lime is a LOT cheaper!!!
I for the most part run closed loop, only have about 40 ish lbs LR (soon to be more). And recently setup a 29 refugium with a DSB in the works.
I have a light bioload for now, and it will very slowly increase for a while. The tank seems to be QUITE a happy tank. Snails reproduce like mad. And two condalactus (sp?) are very happy and growing faster then I thought! They don't even move around, they are just happy! With one Clarkii clown that likes both of them.
I know this doesn't matter for the Ca argument (I would rather have all aragonite), but I have seen no evidence of the silica sand causing problems, and my DSB is developing great so far.
Ok, my 2¢ for today.
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I've seen other people saying they have done this. Makes no sense to me. For aragonite to dissolve is needs to be in water with a low PH. These conditions are supposed to be found at the bottom of the sand bed. So why do you put the aragonite on top of the silica? Would make more sense to me the other way around. Althoug, once again, I believe the benefits would be minimal.
I've seen other people saying they have done this. Makes no sense to me. For aragonite to dissolve is needs to be in water with a low PH. These conditions are supposed to be found at the bottom of the sand bed. So why do you put the aragonite on top of the silica? Would make more sense to me the other way around. Althoug, once again, I believe the benefits would be minimal.
Primary reason for aragonite/oolitic substrate is primarily asthetic as silica pool filter sand can be quite brown and the aragonite lightens it up some giving a more natural look. Anyone who relies solely on substrate to maintain Calcium and Alkalinity is in for a shocking disappointment. web page
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