Am I nuts?? I want to keep corals with non-reef safe fish (u

[M.E.Milz]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Probably you should be taught that corals are living organisms and you MUST give them a good tank in which to thrive, not survive.

Well, couldn't the same thing be said about reefkeeping in general?

Are you telling me that you can provide an environment in your tank that is absolutely as good as in the wild? I doubt it. Therefore, the capture and importation of corals or fish should be completely banned. How can you justify keeping a reef tank, fish tank, or any other kind of tank?

Moreover, do not triggers live in the wild and feed/nip at corals on the reef? Is this behavior acceptable in the wild? Should we prohibit preditory fish from eating corals or other fish in the wild? Why not? And if this behavior is ok in the wild, why would the same behavior be morally wrong if it takes place in our tanks?

It seems to me that you are drawing arbitrary lines on the morality of what we do in our reef tanks.

 

[pathos]

I sold my undulate back to my LFS because he/she was too aggressive. I wouldn't get one again, they hide out most of the time anyhow. Truly a beautiful fish though.

I had no idea that this subject was so controversial. Let me say this again for the record: I AM ONLY ADVOCATING THE ADDITION OF SOFTIES TO A FOWLR TANK! Do not attempt to keep LPS or SPS in a FOWLR. Based on my personal experiences, I stand behind my statement. The aggression level on this thread is alarming. I'd better go get my suit...

 

[M.E.Milz]

Controversial? I suppose so, but isn't everything in this hobby?

Anyways, I didn't intend to be insensitive to the concerns that have been raised by several. After all, that is why I started this thread. I do not want to add any corals (or other organisms for that matter) to this tank that will likely be destroyed. But it does seem apparent that many types of corals can be kept with these types of fish, even though the general thinking has been no. This is what I am trying to learn as well as share with others.

By the the way, the sinularia that I added to the tank yesterday is still looking good. All the polyps are extended and nobody appears to be picking on it.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: M.E.Milz ]</p>

 

[smokinreefer]

Milz

first off, i want to say that i have seen the thread with your tank pics and i am very impressed. you have a very beautiful reef tank.

second, i think what you are doing is cool and i wish you success. please keep us updated.

and i agree with you in that i see nothing wrong with what you are doing. if anything you are creating a more natural environment. sure corals are animals and we as hobbyist should do our best to provide them an adequate if not ideal environment to thrive in.

and yes, i think somepeople may be overreacting here.

 

[yabby]

With hungry fish I have has the same experience with leathers- they are just niped. Also had no problems with hammer coral. Open brains are destroyed in no time. Green polyps, like you mentioned, also seem to be safe. Pulsing Xenia also are not bothered by my angle fish same with mushrooms -both are worth trying.

 

[Emmitt]

M.E.,

What exactly is the "reef putty" you're talking about? I recently obtained a bunch of frags and while I attached most to small rocks outside the tank with epoxy or gel, I'd like to affix some to large rocks underwater. Does this putty (or anything else) allow that?

Tia,

 

[M.E.Milz]

Update - The sinularia looks great this morning. The branches are nicely spread out and the polyps are extended. I cannot see any visible damage to the coral, and none of the fish appear to have been bothering it over the weekend. Since this tank is in my office, I was concerned about mischieve as the weekend progressed and the fish became hungry.

Encouraged my this modest success, I will be adding 2 cabage leather corals (1 green and 1 brown) and a colony of green fuzzy mushrooms.

Smokinreefer, thanks for complement on my reef tank.

I want to also thank EVERYONE that responded to this thread (including those that called me idiot, inhumane, or worse). After all, I started this thread for the purpose of getting feedback, both positive and negative, as well as to share my experiences on this effort.

I will post another update at the end of the week.

Mike

 

[esmithiii]

IMO, yes, you are nuts. As for coral's rights to a good home:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>
I don´t think that´s a responsible reefer thinking. I feel sorry for you. Probably you should be taught that corals are living organisms and you MUST give them a good tank in which to thrive, not survive.<hr></blockquote>

Thats a crock. If you propogated the corals yourself then you aren't really impacting the reefs of the world.

I do think that there are very good reasons why the fish are labeled "not reef safe." I think you are asking for trouble by adding the corals.

I also think that you have to expect a certain amount of sarcasm and scepticism when you go against the grain of what is considered smart practices. It is incensing to some that you would try what many before you have tried before without success. Like so many newbies that post questions about compatibility and then ignore the advice given, you too seem to want to have your cake and to eat it too.

Ernie

 

[M.E.Milz]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I also think that you have to expect a certain amount of sarcasm and scepticism when you go against the grain of what is considered smart practices. It is incensing to some that you would try what many before you have tried before without success. Like so many newbies that post questions about compatibility and then ignore the advice given, you too seem to want to have your cake and to eat it too.

Good points. However, I am not convinced about your assumption that "many before [me] have tried before without success." Nobody responded to this post saying that they had tried what I am doing. To the contrary, many have stated that they have tried this in a few circumstances and have had success. I guess what I am doing is "questioning the conventional wisdom" because, like so much in this hobby, the conventional wisdom seems to change. Remember wet/dry filters?

My other

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Nobody responded to this post saying that they had tried what I am doing. To the contrary, many have stated that they have tried this in a few circumstances and have had success. I guess what I am doing is "questioning the conventional wisdom"

Has anyone in this forum tried keeping a yellow tang in a sandbox? I think I'll try it, since no one here has tried it with negative results.

Reading Scott Michael's Marine Fishes he notes:

<ul type="square">[*]regarding Arothron nigropunctatus- not recommended for reef aquariums[*]regarding Pomacanthus Anularis- will nip at sessile invertibrates, including stony and soft corals and tridacnid clam mantles.[*]regarding Odonus niger- Can be housed in a reef aquarium, but may nip at sponges, tunicates, ornamental crustaceans, and snails. Harmless to corals. To keep with cleaner shrimp, add the crustacean first.[*]regarding Rhinecanthus aculeatus- Will attack many invertibrates, with the exception of large, stinging cnidarians, such as the carpet anemones.[*]regarding Chilomycterus schoepfi- Not reccomended.[*]regarding Pseudobalistes fuscus- Not Suitable. Eats many invertibrates.
[/list]

I wish you luck in your endevour. I hope your main reef tank can grow the corals fast enough to sustain the FOWLR experiment.

E

 

[pathos]

ok maybe we should go about formulating a list of soft corals that we have had success in mixing with a FOWLR predator style tank. I have successfully kept the following with a Niger and Undulate trigger:

galaxea
leather coral
button polyps
various mushrooms
common BTA
gonipora

IME here's what was severely nipped at:

turbo snail
brittle star
xenia
crayfish (a trigger snack)

I have no experience with the annularis angel.

 

[M.E.Milz]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Has anyone in this forum tried keeping a yellow tang in a sandbox? I think I'll try it, since no one here has tried it with negative results.

That is really not a fair comparison.

In any event, the quotes from Michael's book (which I agree is probably the best source of info out there) do include a lot of generalities. For example, some of these fish are listed as preditors of shrimp and similar types of inverts, but there is some suggestion that these same fish will leave some types of corals alone.

Since most of us that keep reef tanks have a variety of corals, shrimp, and other types of inverts, it understandable that a fish that will go after any one of these should be labled as "non-reef safe", and should be avoided in a full-blown reef tank. Is it any surprise that fish that are labled as "non-reef safe" are subsequently assumed to be preditors of all types of inverts?

All I am trying to do is go beyond the general classification of these fish as "non-reef safe" to determine what types of inverts, if any, CAN be kept with them. Again, my goal is to create a more diverse (& healty) environment in my FOWLR tank; and I am trying to approach this task in logical manner.

As for the list pathos has started, I have 2 FOWLR tanks.

In my 90g that is home to a piccasso trigger, a spiny boxfish, an adult corris wrasse, a purple tang, and a sailfin dottyback, I am successfully keeping:

green star polyps
yellow button polyps
brown (green center) button polyps
large hermits (common, not blue-legged, red-legged or scarlet)
mexican turbo snails

In my 175g that is home to a fuscus trigger, a niger trigger, an annularis angle, a dogface puffer, and 3 morays (zebra, white mouth, and Hawain dragon), I am successfully (so far) keeping:

Sinularia leather
green cabbage leather
brown cabbage leather
green fuzzy mushrooms

 

[M.E.Milz]

By the way, the biggest problem that I have noticed so far with my fuscus (blueline) trigger is his tendencey to try and pick everything up. In other words, if the coral (and the rock it is attached to) is not securely attached to the live rock structure, the trigger will pick at it in an effort to move it around - usually by grabbing the rock the coral is attached to. Once I securely epoxied the coral (ie, the attachment rock) into/on the rock structure, he quit bothering it. I have not noticed this behavior with my niger trigger, who seems to completely ignore the corals.

 

[esmithiii]

I don't want to belabour any points, but I guess where I feel a bit of discomfort with your "experiment" lies in the fact that most on this board would consider this not responsible reef keeping. I simply do not want the "experiment" to convey the wrong message to newbies. The fact that you may have a limited amount of success with your particular specimines of the species listed may encourage others to make some foolish decisions.

Also, what is the difference between your post and the countless other posts that ask, for example, if a atlantic blue tang can be kept in a 10 Gal tank, and then after sever rebuke by others on this board the posting party announces that just because others failed, he/she may have better luck and will try it anyway? What about all the times we tell people to research, research and then do more research? Should we also state that if you have done your research but you still want something really, really bad that they can ignore the research and follow their own desire and expect to have good results?

What, BTW, was ambiguous about Michael's note on Rhinecanthus aculeatus and on Pomacanthus Anularis?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Again, my goal is to create a more diverse (& healty) environment in my FOWLR tank; and I am trying to approach this task in logical manner.
<hr></blockquote>

If you mean divirse in that many of your fish will get a more diverse diet, then I can see your point. Otherwise I am not sure of the benefit to adding corals to your FOWLR. I am ignorant on this point so maybe you could enlighten me.

Anyway, it is late, I had a rough day at the office, so please don't take this as a flame.

What you do with your corals and your money is your business. I wish you the best. I am sorry that I cannot comment with personal experience on this topic as I have avoided all the species that you mentioned due to the advice I was given by many sources, including books and this site. I could give you advice from personal experience on keeping tangs in a small tank against the advice of others on this board: if I had followed their advice I would have saved some dough and a couple of fish.

As for the fairness of the tang in the sandbox analogy, it seemed like a reasonable analogy to me. Analogies are meant to be extreem to illustrate a point. Many on this board probably feel that your experiment will have the same end result as if you had simply planted the corals in a sandbox.

Good luck.

Ernie

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: esmithiii ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

Here is what I have kept with a porcupine puffer (diodon holacanthus) and a dogface puffer (Arothron nigropunctatus). Both fished were in the same 100g aquarium at the same time. None of the following corals or inverts were harmed at any point.

-xenia
-large derasa clam
-green star polyps
-large zoanthid colony
-some large, slimy thing that cjdevito gave me.

I didn't keep any triggers in this tank, but I'm sure I could have kept some species. I did end up giving away the clam a few weeks after getting the dogface puffer, as I didn't want to take any chances. During those 3 weeks, I don't think the puffer even looked at it twice though. For the record though, clams are not a good idea with dogface puffers, as I have fed them clams in the shell before (from the grocery store).

 

[Mouse]

My personal opinion on this subject would be that if an individual has enough expirience in marine aquarium husbandry then yea, go ahead and blur the line. If the corals (soft or hard) that you are intending on introducing have been responsibly collected/propogated then its your money down the drain should your test prove a failure. At the end of the day every animal is an individual, and should be trated as such. But this is something that comes with expirience.

I personally would like to set up a reef tank of over 200 gallons to house SPS/LPS corals and an emperator angel, and possibly some schooling banner fish. With regards to the banner fish i have found that henochius Dephrutes does not feed on coral polyops. And the Emperator will either be make or break but i have seen many reef tanks with emperators in them. Just go look at Dr Mac & Sons web site. I am concerned about the LPS corals though and there will be many i shall avoid, i.e. Open brain corals. This is not because i dislike them but have heard that these corals for one are especially appealing to our coral munching freinds, it actually happens to be a favorate of mine regardless.

As for all those replys that have cussed you for then owning a tank where copper medication would no longer be an option, i suggest you all take some time out and go read a couple of books on reef keeping. You obviously dont know anything of the basics, and advanced animal husbandry is defenately something you should reserve opinion about untill you can at least grasp the basic concepts of eco management. I personally welcome any thread that doesn't start, all my fish have ICK, or Why does everything die, or why does my tank look like a swamp, and can you tell me how i start a syphon. This board is about advances in the hobby, and i feel that Mr Mills has the know how to make something good of this endevour. Best of luck to you.

 

[M.E.Milz]

Ernie, I understand the points that you have raised and agree that they requre important consideration. And yes, I am one of those that would tell someone not to keep a yellow tang in a 20g tank.

But I still think your comparison of what I am attempting to do to keeping a tang in a 20g is inappropriate. Perhaps a better analogy would be the use of protein skimmers. I am sure that the vast majority on this board would tell you that protein skimming is a must. However, there are those that are successfully keeping a reef tank without protein skimming.

I also appreciate that a novice may read this thread and decide (foolishly) that they can combine any type of fish with any type of coral. Of course I do not want this to happen. But I do not think that avoiding these types of discussions (ie, controversial topics) is the answer - for how would the hobby and our knowledge of these animals ever progress?

In any event, and as I have already stated, I will continue to provide updates on the corals that I introduce to this tank and how they fare. Thanks again to everyone for the input.

[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: M.E.Milz ]</p>

 

[Jase]

Mike, You go!

I get fed up with all these people standing up for the rights of coral, but don't think twice about blasting an aiptasia with kalk.

FWIW, your tank will be one of the most natural reeftanks, after all these non-reefsafe fish do come from...reefs, don't they?

At some time, I'm going to try keeping the orangespot filefish (Oxymonacanthus longirostris), and I will feed it frags, and cheap brown acros.

 

[Jase]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SPC:
<strong> With all the reef safe fish there are to choose from, I just don't understand why someone would need to have a known coral eater.
Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not a need, but a challenge. If we didn't ry different things, we'd all have tanks full of star polyps and damsels.
If I could provide the correct food for the above fish, just as easily as I can provide food for my anthias, then where's the problem?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, an orange-spot will eat far less than a parrotfish, so its possible that you can raise an orange-spot filefish on frags you raise yourself. I personally don't see a problem with this. Now purchasing wild-caught corals to feed it would be an issue, given that we're trying to show this hobby has higher ethics than most industries.

I agree that adding a known coral eater to a reef aquarium is a bad idea...IF....you keep corals that fish is known to eat. Many fish that feed on corals (such as a parrotfish), won't eat every type of coral. It is very likely that you can keep a wide variety of soft corals with a parrotfish. This is what Mike is attempting to do basically: keep corals that are not within the diets of his fishes. Completely ethical, and will create more diversity in his tank.

Now if Mike were to add a coral that is part of the normal diet of his fish, then we'd have something to gripe about. Like my tank with the clam and puffer.....I removed the clam because it is part of a puffer's normal diet. However, xenia and any other soft coral I can think of are NOT, and my tank was a success as far as this goes. The puffers never touched a soft coral that I kept.