A Moral Dilema

[jdeets]

IMO, the reason they stock these "no-no" corals is that people DO buy them. As long as people keep buying them, they'll keep stocking them. If they have a few hundred or a few thousand dollars worth of bad corals die in their tanks, them perhaps they'll quit stocking them. So if you buy them out of compassion for the coral, you're just helping the problem to continue. The only way anything will change is if you leave them there to die in the dealer's tanks.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Anonymous]

Ditto what James said.
That almighty dollar is the one that came out of your wallet!

 

[DaktariEd]

I have to agree with jdeets. The only way to make a real impact is in the pocketbook. If we stop buying them, the dealers will stop stocking them.

My 2 cents...

Ed

 

[Lefty1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2poor2reef:
<STRONG>Never mastered tone of voice while typing. I'm not losing my cool Lefty. Just enjoying the conversation. Yep, I understood that people were talking about not buying hard to keep fish from the LFS. Why would that change what I said?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sweet! Lets keep talkin'.
I don't know if it would change what you said. I just wanted to make sure I understood you.

Here is my concern. If "Conscientious hobbyists are such a small minority of LFS customers that you will have no meaningful impact on LFS purchasing decisions by boycotting", then it seems that it makes no difference if I buy wild caught animals over farmed animals. I mean, if they are gonna take them from the wild no matter what, hard to keep or not, why shouldn't I enjoy cheaper, bigger wild caught specimens? Why should anyone be a "responsible hobbyist" if being responsible makes no meaningful difference?

RR

 

[Tim Tessier]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

There is, however, another possibility that the LFS obtained these "hard to keep" fish or corals through no fault of their own. For example, a LFS that I frequent has told me that it is not unusual for a distributor/wholesaler to included non-ordered fish and corals that have been included as substitutes. If this is true, than the LFS faces the same dilemma.

This is true but it does not start with the lfs. It starts with the local(indigineous) collectors that some exporters use overcollecting to get paid more so they can feed their families. Consequently they bring extra, unordered animals to the exporters. Some exporters will then pass them onto their unsuspecting customers, the importers. The importer must then sell the extras or eventually go out of business. Some importers offer discounts(does the LFS buy them?) on these products to the LFS while others send them unbeknownst to the LFS.

My personal opinion is that people viewed acropora and other sps the same way 10+ years ago. "Leave them in the Ocean because they just die anyways", now we are fragging and captive growing them and they grow like weeds. Could these "impossible" corals become easy to keep in 5 years? ie. I have some fragged goniopora that is doing great after 3 months.

What really burns me is that people still buy cyanide caught fish. Here we discuss boycotting lfs that carry hard to keep corals when the reefs are being decimated by cyanide use to provide cheap fish to the lfs/hobbyists. Next time you see that coral beauty angelfih real cheap, stop and think about how many other fish and corals died to provide it, then if you buy it and when you bury it, ask yourself, was it really worth it. That is where the real problem lies! Ask your lfs to carry certified cyanide free fish, both Mary(MSI http://www.reefsource.com/) and Keith(Ecovitality - Goodfish Program) carry them in the US.

I know there are only two stores in the Vancouver area where you won't find cyanide caught fish. They actually have "Cyanide free" certificates for their Philippine fish from the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources mounted in the store. Shame on the rest!

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Mouse]

God damn it guys i didnt pay £4000 for my reef to keep mushrooms, i thought this is what its all about. These animals require a greater responsibility, one wich i can provide. Just because some guy on a budget with no brain thinks that corals have the same life expectancy as a bunch of roses doesn't mean that i do! Its unfortunate that life is full of these morons, and its our job to educate them.

 

[Mac1]

Not only do dealers and distributors include unsolicited items from time to time, but sometimes it's an economic factor for the store. A fellow who recently attended one of our club meetings runs the SW section at a LFS around here. He said the reason he sells goni's is to make money to pay for all the other things:
He gets Goniopora for a buck a piece. Sells them for 36 dollars, make's 35 on the deal. The 35 dollars pays for the Anthias he gets in, that he has to let go at $1 over his cost, just to keep up w/ the internet MO places. He actually explained it all to me the one day. Kinda sickening, but he said if he wouldn't do it, that section of the shop would lose money, and he wouldn't be able to pay for all the other things he gets in (he has to assume all the losses, and pay for it somehow...). Sad to say, but Goni's are dying so we can get wild caught fish and coral's in at our LFS. They know damn well that those animal's are going to die. They also know the schmuck that came in and bought it, is going to buy another one in a couple weeks after the first one goes... Buy Tank Raised, and you eliminate the moral dillema.
Just my 2-bits.

- Mac

 

[2poor2reef]

Lefty, your last question cuts to the heart of the "moral dilemma". The answer depends on a person's personal ethics. Why do people buy less polluting cars, not cheat on their income taxes, return the money when they're given too much change. You do it because it's the right thing to do and you have control and responsibility for your own actions. Does that mean you think that everybody does that? Or even the majority of people? No. Does that mean you don't wish they would or encourage them to do so? Of course. But you don't do things that are wrong simply because everyone else does. Every parent's favorite line.

Now, what do you do when the majority don't do what they should?. The majority of customers at the LFS? Do you control them by taking away their choice to do the wrong thing? That's what you do when you ban importation of certain "hard to keep" species. Not only does this reduce everyone's rights good or bad, but not everyone agrees on what is hard to keep. As noted above, nearly every sps would have been on that list five or ten years ago.

Personally, I believe in personal freedom and responsibility. I make sure I'm not part of the problem, and I make sure I get my point of view across when I can. But I don't impose my will on others by controlling them against their will. That is what ban's do, which is the more effective alternative of the two options being mentioned: boycotting or banning.

To me there is no moral dilemma. Don't buy something you can't keep. Don't take away other people's freedom of choice. Teach others whenever you can. Accept that not everyone is going to be responsible. Find and support more effective solutions to the problem. We know people are influenced by their wallets, if not by ethics. Make it more expensive to waste animals. Tack on a "species import duty" on hard to keep species. Require a "keep alive" deposit on certain species. Some options are harder to implement than others but there are ways to incent collectors or customers not to waste animals while preserving their choice of what to keep.

 

[reeferguy1]

So who is to say this coral is okay and this one is not?That is something that will never fly.Who is to say that because you cant keep a certain coral ,that I or someone else may not be able to?I personaly have had a gonipora for over 5 years that has had many offspring in the tank (which are still going strong).I have also kept many species of carnation with great success(feed a lot of phytoplankton).So my big argument is we will never be able to keep some of these species if we dont try to see what it is they need to survive in a closed system.I REALLY DO agree with part of it as far as the fish go.There are some species that will never be able to survive in an aquarium no matter how large.Some fish need to be kept in such large groups and need WAY MORE room to swim than even the largest home aquarium.So in my honest opinion you should just buy the things you either know you can keep or take a chance on something NEW that may be a little harder to keep but will be a great learning experience for you.The hardest thing about this hobbby is to keep an OPEN MIND to new ideals.If you are convinced that you cant keep something because of what someone else has tried and failed at,than you are already beat.These are just my 2 cents worth(plus a nickel)hehe
Let the flames begin
(games)hehe
Respect
reeferguy

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: reeferguy ]

 

[SPC]

Reeferguy, a few questions if you dont mind.
1. What do you atribute your success with Gorniopora to? Have you published your findings?
2. Have you discussed your success with Eric Borneman, he has a forum on reef central and I'm sure he would like to hear about this.
3. Have you participated in Mary's Gorniopora study?
Steve

 

[DEADFISH1]

Reeferguy I'm with ya, us Texans have to stick together you know.

 

[belling]

I was thinking about starting a blacklist website for LFS. Stores found to be irresponsibly selling livestock get to be listed on the site. Users can check all the LFS in their area for the best to shop at.

My wive and I do a weekly tour off all the pet stores, and are routinely disgusted to see tanks full of baby sharks. These stores know better, they just happen to make $$ not caring.

Jeff

 

[pupeluv]

I don't know that boycotting a whole store is exactly what has to be done, unless the whole store is nasty. But I think it's appropriate to boycott buying wild animals that you know are caught in an unhealthy manner, are mistreated during storage, or will not survive in captivity. Nobody says one person can change the whole world, but what about each person's individual obligation to conserve the animals we enjoy? We can't control what other people do, even if we try to educate them. But we can control what we choose to support with our dollars. And I agree that we have to also tell the lfs why we're not buying certain fish...and also tell them why we're spending a few more dollars for captive bred species!

Regarding many hard to keep species now being kept due to advances by hobbyists, I highly doubt those advances were made by anyone but the most highly educated and responsible keepers who did their homework before trying something new. I don't know if that justifies having any delicate or at risk species available to anyone who walks through the door with a few bucks.

This is a great thread!

 

[reeferguy1]

SPC
I think the only thing I do any different on the Goni tank is that I do dose iodine daily,as well as not running a skimmer on that system(a old style ecosystem)with RDP.I also feed the tank with DT's Phytoplankton.The only other thing I do Is to keep a few of the Gonipora's touching each other(they seem to really stimulate each other).Again, this is no scientific study ,just my own observation over the past 5 or 6 years of working seriously with these guys.
And yes we did get the info from Mary so we can send our info over to the study.
I will make sure to send some of my pics and info over to Eric.
Just as a side note,When I started keeping marine tanks back in the mid 80's it was very rare to see a very nice reef tank at all.They were mostly dead bleached corals,because(those live corals are just to hard to keep).That was what everyone thought because we didnt yet know what the lighting,water flow,trace elements were required to keep them.Now it is nothing to keep and grow corals in a closed system(something that was thought impossible at one time)
Sorry for the long post but I really see both sides of this debate because I hate to see the sharks and butterflys and things that should be in the ocean on our wholesale sheets every week.I never order them ,but that does not stop them from being on the list ever week.It really makes me very sad knowing all the poor fish that are killed during transport and then at the wholesalers and then in some poor unknowing hobbyist.So all I ca say is ALWAYS RESEARCH what you are going to buy BEFORE you buy it.Dont make that impulse buy without knowing you have the means to keep it.
Respect
reeferguy

 

[SPC]

Reeferguy, thanks for the reply. The more I read the more it seems to me that Gorniopora require alot of nutrients in the water. All the people I have heard of that have had success with this coral have used algae filtration and no skimmer.
Steve

 

[Lefty1]

2poor2reef,

It seems that making certain animals more expensive in the ways you expressed is just controlling people through their wallets. Making something more expensive limits most peoples choices because they can't afford it anymore.

Also, by not purchasing these hard to keep animals, or only purchasing captive raised animals, aren't you participating in a boycott of those animals?

RR

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Lefty ]

 

[2poor2reef]

Yep, I don't buy animals at the LFS that I don't feel I can successfully keep. Buy definition that's a boycott. I just don't think that's going to have an impact on what that LFS sells. That's all I was saying.

There's a big difference between having the freedom to choose to buy a more expensive animal, and not having any choice. I thought that was obvious. The real problem when dealing with unknowledgable buyers or ones that just don't care is that there is no relationship between the cost of a critter and it's difficulty to care for. Nor should there be any connection economically. I just said that if you wanted to truly motivate a purchase by means other than ethics, you could use money. That's the same mechanism that people who boycott use. It's just that one method works and the other doesn't.

 

[Lefty1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2poor2reef:
<STRONG>
There's a big difference between having the freedom to choose to buy a more expensive animal, and not having any choice. I thought that was obvious. </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this may not be true, but it is a discussion for the sump!

RR

 

[gkrane]

Most LFS go on the system of if they can sell it they will keep stocking it regardless of lifespan, ecological considerations etc.....How many LFS have you been in that dont sell mandarins...None for me, even though the majority of them are purchased for their stunning colors but will most likely starve to death shortly after purchasing them....Just dont buy them...If the LFS has to eat the cost things may change, but until then...

 

[BradB]

Discuss the questionable items with the LFS. If they are trying to sell them to people with no idea what they are buying, I wouldn't even buy 'easy' animals from them - I'd run like hell.

If the LFS has different opinions about the difficulty in keeping them (and is generally right about other species), ordered them in special as a customer request, didn't order them (customer brought in, shipping substitute, etc), or other good reasons, I'd buy it.

Most of any reef store money comes from successful reefkeeps, not clueless newbies.