are they ok to use? Beneficial? I have one from my old salt tank that i used as a supplement to the bio system with great success... I would assume that they dont breed nitrate because of the suspension of the sand and the prefiltered water? Am i off base? What do you think?
fluidized sand filter + reef = ?
- Thread starter ebaybrad
- Start date
You really need a media that can support all of the bacteria needed to break down waste.
The problem with a fluidized-bed filter is that it only supports aerobic bacteria. This is a problem because the bactria that break down nitrate are usually (read this as "always") anerobic.
You'll have no problem creating nitrate, but you will have a problem getting rid of it.
Essentially you only have half a filtration system after spending a reasonable amount of money.
In a system with live rock it is entirely adequate just to have a good flow of water in the tank to provide filtration. The rocks themselves are very porous and provide all of the surface area needed to grow bacteria.
However, to denitrify you need to look at a deep sand bed. Search the posts on this board for the opinions of people have used these. There's lots of old wives tales you'll hear from people who have not used these because they're too scared to (for various reasons - all of which are invalid).
It's kind of lucky that what happens to look good to us i.e. roskcs and sand, just happens to be the perfect filtration system too.
The problem with a fluidized-bed filter is that it only supports aerobic bacteria. This is a problem because the bactria that break down nitrate are usually (read this as "always") anerobic.
You'll have no problem creating nitrate, but you will have a problem getting rid of it.
Essentially you only have half a filtration system after spending a reasonable amount of money.
In a system with live rock it is entirely adequate just to have a good flow of water in the tank to provide filtration. The rocks themselves are very porous and provide all of the surface area needed to grow bacteria.
However, to denitrify you need to look at a deep sand bed. Search the posts on this board for the opinions of people have used these. There's lots of old wives tales you'll hear from people who have not used these because they're too scared to (for various reasons - all of which are invalid).
It's kind of lucky that what happens to look good to us i.e. roskcs and sand, just happens to be the perfect filtration system too.
reeferbrad-
I agree with AnotherGoldenTeaPot, and, (UNBELIEVABLY
) DISAGREE with Steve on this one.
I don't TOTALLY disagree with Steve, mind you.
His stance is just a little too ABSOLUTE, in my opinion.
Indeed, there ARE needs and uses for fluidized bed filters, as any wholesale marine aquaculture outfit will attest to. If they won't admit it, just try to find a large one that DOESN'T utilized an INDUSTRIAL SIZED Fluidized Bed Filter!
Like AGTB said: it serves as only HALF of a filter for coral tanks. Think of it as a super-duper wet/dry filter.
It will break down ammonia to nitrite and nitrites to nitrates in an incredibly efficient manner. Problem is: excess nitrates are VERY detrimental to corals.
BIGGER PROBLEM (IMO): if your fluidized sand bed filter is causing elevated nitrates, then your tank has elevated ammonia and/or nitrite levels to start with!
BOTH of which are more detrimental to corals and fish than are nitrates alone... "gallon per gallon", as it were.
If you use a FBF and find that your nitrates increase, then you have solved half of the problem (and, consequently, "created" another).
You must then fix the OTHER major half, or the cycle will be incomplete, and the nitrates will eventually do the same damage that you've tried to prevent. You will have merely POSTPONED it by removing the ammonia and nitrites.
This applies to corals in particular - fish are MUCH, MUCH more nitrate tolerant... probably the reason that you had such excellent results with a FBF in your fish-only tank.
To finish the OTHER half of the filtering, you need a NITRATE filter.
Do this next step, and brother, you're good to go!
(Paying attention to trace mineral levels, lighting, etc, not withstanding).
What's the BEST way to remove these nitrates?
(Remember though, that your nitrates wouldn't be highly elevated in the FIRST place if your FBF wasn't doing an EXCELLENT job of breaking down your ALREADY detrimental excesses of ammonia and nitrites!)
Algae, brother, MACROALGAE!
Put a large refugium seeded with macroalgae, in-line, right after that fluidized bed filter, and problem solved.
(You need good lighting for the refugium, of course).
EXCELLENT water quality. Period. Make that a large PERIOD.
The best mechanical equipment we have available to us today only mimics the natural environment. That said, no single piece of equipment can do the job nearly as well as live rock and a deep sand bed.
BUT, unless you can mimic the crashing, turbulent ocean waves in your tank... somehow well enough to take the place of a protein skimmer, then you really need a protein skimmer to mimic that portion of nature's big and complex picture...
AND, unless you are willing to point a powerhead STRAIGHT down into your sandbed to stir it into the oxygenated portions of your tank every few days or so, you would do well to use a FSB.
FURTHERMORE, unless you get into those coiled thing-a-ma-jigs that remove nitrates (I have NO experience with them, but inherently distrust them for some reason), then you would do VERY well to use an algae-scrubber type of refugium.
In fact, you MUST use something to remove the nitrates if you use FBF' wet/dry or some other rapid means of breaking down ammonia, 'cause unless you have an absolutely HUGE tank with tons of live rock and sand to support VAST amounts of anaerobic bacteria, the nitrates won't be broken down as swiftly as they are created.
If that one extra step (the algae refugium) is too much for you,then you should just stick to the deep sandbed, live rock thing. Using a fluidized bed filter without a VERY efficient nitrate removel system is a recipe for disaster, eventually.
Take this all with a grain of salt though, because I am writing from what I have learned from OTHER reefer's experiences and through (many) books. Truth is, I haven't used a FBF yet, but intend to. I was initiated in the hobby during the wet/dry, "nitrate sink" dark ages. Therefore I've been WELL educated in the nitrate thing.
In my opinion, it's all a matter of degree. If you don't have enough live rock and live sand to do the "trick" (keeping the tank stable for years), then you need a protein skimmer to get most of the crud out before it needs to be broken down by the bacteria in the LR/LS...
If you STILL have measurable amounts of ammonia and nitrites, then you should go with a wet/dry, or preferrably a FBF (because of it's incredible efficiency versus space requirements).
If you have to go with a W/D or FBF to meet your ammonia and/or nitrite challenges, then you MUST have a means of breaking down the inevitable nitrate build-up into gas, slowly and safely. I think the best answer lies in an algae refugium.
If you do a "reverse" day/night cycle with it, then your pH will also remain much more stable 24 hours a day. Also, you'll have an abundant supply of super-nutritious food for your herbivores.
Problem is: you'll get to the point that you'd rather mow the lawn than to "thin-out" your refugium of algae... it seems to grow much faster than lawn grass or weeds!
If you decide to do this, you will need to throw out (or SELL to others!) 99% of your algae. But either way, in doing so, you will be "exporting" TONS of nitrates and many other harmful chemicals that would otherwise build up in your tank over time.
LR, LS, skimming, FBF and algae "scrubber" refugium = a great place to live for corals, IMO!
Not to mention a GREAT place to hang out and thrive (and survive) if you happen to be sandbed fauna... they LOVE macroalgae and, of course, the protection that a refugium provides.
Whew! Sorry, but y'all got me going again.
Joe Mac
[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Joe Mac ]</p>
I agree with AnotherGoldenTeaPot, and, (UNBELIEVABLY
I don't TOTALLY disagree with Steve, mind you.
His stance is just a little too ABSOLUTE, in my opinion.
Indeed, there ARE needs and uses for fluidized bed filters, as any wholesale marine aquaculture outfit will attest to. If they won't admit it, just try to find a large one that DOESN'T utilized an INDUSTRIAL SIZED Fluidized Bed Filter!
Like AGTB said: it serves as only HALF of a filter for coral tanks. Think of it as a super-duper wet/dry filter.
It will break down ammonia to nitrite and nitrites to nitrates in an incredibly efficient manner. Problem is: excess nitrates are VERY detrimental to corals.
BIGGER PROBLEM (IMO): if your fluidized sand bed filter is causing elevated nitrates, then your tank has elevated ammonia and/or nitrite levels to start with!
BOTH of which are more detrimental to corals and fish than are nitrates alone... "gallon per gallon", as it were.
If you use a FBF and find that your nitrates increase, then you have solved half of the problem (and, consequently, "created" another).
You must then fix the OTHER major half, or the cycle will be incomplete, and the nitrates will eventually do the same damage that you've tried to prevent. You will have merely POSTPONED it by removing the ammonia and nitrites.
This applies to corals in particular - fish are MUCH, MUCH more nitrate tolerant... probably the reason that you had such excellent results with a FBF in your fish-only tank.
To finish the OTHER half of the filtering, you need a NITRATE filter.
Do this next step, and brother, you're good to go!
(Paying attention to trace mineral levels, lighting, etc, not withstanding).
What's the BEST way to remove these nitrates?
(Remember though, that your nitrates wouldn't be highly elevated in the FIRST place if your FBF wasn't doing an EXCELLENT job of breaking down your ALREADY detrimental excesses of ammonia and nitrites!)
Algae, brother, MACROALGAE!
Put a large refugium seeded with macroalgae, in-line, right after that fluidized bed filter, and problem solved.
(You need good lighting for the refugium, of course).
EXCELLENT water quality. Period. Make that a large PERIOD.
The best mechanical equipment we have available to us today only mimics the natural environment. That said, no single piece of equipment can do the job nearly as well as live rock and a deep sand bed.
BUT, unless you can mimic the crashing, turbulent ocean waves in your tank... somehow well enough to take the place of a protein skimmer, then you really need a protein skimmer to mimic that portion of nature's big and complex picture...
AND, unless you are willing to point a powerhead STRAIGHT down into your sandbed to stir it into the oxygenated portions of your tank every few days or so, you would do well to use a FSB.
FURTHERMORE, unless you get into those coiled thing-a-ma-jigs that remove nitrates (I have NO experience with them, but inherently distrust them for some reason), then you would do VERY well to use an algae-scrubber type of refugium.
In fact, you MUST use something to remove the nitrates if you use FBF' wet/dry or some other rapid means of breaking down ammonia, 'cause unless you have an absolutely HUGE tank with tons of live rock and sand to support VAST amounts of anaerobic bacteria, the nitrates won't be broken down as swiftly as they are created.
If that one extra step (the algae refugium) is too much for you,then you should just stick to the deep sandbed, live rock thing. Using a fluidized bed filter without a VERY efficient nitrate removel system is a recipe for disaster, eventually.
Take this all with a grain of salt though, because I am writing from what I have learned from OTHER reefer's experiences and through (many) books. Truth is, I haven't used a FBF yet, but intend to. I was initiated in the hobby during the wet/dry, "nitrate sink" dark ages. Therefore I've been WELL educated in the nitrate thing.
In my opinion, it's all a matter of degree. If you don't have enough live rock and live sand to do the "trick" (keeping the tank stable for years), then you need a protein skimmer to get most of the crud out before it needs to be broken down by the bacteria in the LR/LS...
If you STILL have measurable amounts of ammonia and nitrites, then you should go with a wet/dry, or preferrably a FBF (because of it's incredible efficiency versus space requirements).
If you have to go with a W/D or FBF to meet your ammonia and/or nitrite challenges, then you MUST have a means of breaking down the inevitable nitrate build-up into gas, slowly and safely. I think the best answer lies in an algae refugium.
If you do a "reverse" day/night cycle with it, then your pH will also remain much more stable 24 hours a day. Also, you'll have an abundant supply of super-nutritious food for your herbivores.
Problem is: you'll get to the point that you'd rather mow the lawn than to "thin-out" your refugium of algae... it seems to grow much faster than lawn grass or weeds!
If you decide to do this, you will need to throw out (or SELL to others!) 99% of your algae. But either way, in doing so, you will be "exporting" TONS of nitrates and many other harmful chemicals that would otherwise build up in your tank over time.
LR, LS, skimming, FBF and algae "scrubber" refugium = a great place to live for corals, IMO!
Not to mention a GREAT place to hang out and thrive (and survive) if you happen to be sandbed fauna... they LOVE macroalgae and, of course, the protection that a refugium provides.
Whew! Sorry, but y'all got me going again.
Joe Mac
[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Joe Mac ]</p>
I used a fluidized bed sand filter FB600 for a long time. It worked great except it needed a lot of water changes to keep the nitrates down to an acceptable level. I'm using live rock, DSB, good skimmer now, and my tank is almost maintenance free. I gave the FB600 to my ladyfriend for her cichlid tank.
I don't recommend it for reefers, unless you like extra maintenance.
I don't recommend it for reefers, unless you like extra maintenance.
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