New Digital Temperature Controller, need your input

[Canada_Dry]

Hi, we are currently in the final design stages of our digital display temperature controller.
We need some input from fellow members, as to the temperature in which most would consider "Safe" and which temperature you would consider "Low" to activate an auxiliary heater. And which temperature you would consider "High" to activate a cooling system or fans. The unit will provide 2 set points for "Low" and 2 set points for "High"
We would like your input as to which temperatures to have for the 2 high and low set points.
For example:
80F safe.
High set point option one 82F
High set point option two 83F
Low set point option one 77F
Low set point option two 76F

Any suggestions as to which set points you would like to see? Please take a few min to post, thanks Canada_Dry

 

[Mike and Donna]

I'm being dense here...

First, why do I need two set points each for high and low. One high set point and one low set point would do it. Then, I wouldn't design the controller to only work with a fix set. They should be adjustable to suit individual preference, since there are so many opinions on the subject.

There are a lot of controllers out there designed with one adjustable high and one adjustable low set point. Maybe you're trying to accomplish something I'm not getting.

 

[Lynn]

High point #1 81
High point #2 82
Low point 1 78
low point 2 77

 

[Canada_Dry]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mike and Donna:
<strong>I'm being dense here...

First, why do I need two set points each for high and low. One high set point and one low set point would do it. Then, I wouldn't design the controller to only work with a fix set. They should be adjustable to suit individual preference, since there are so many opinions on the subject.

There are a lot of controllers out there designed with one adjustable high and one adjustable low set point. Maybe you're trying to accomplish something I'm not getting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The reason for the 2 set points is because this is part of a much larger system (details to be given soon) and to keep the cost down, we could easily give unlimited set points but that puts the cost up. second why have unlimited set points when 2-5 degrees from a safe point is all that is realy needed? Thanks for your input.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree, most temperature controllers allow you to change your "ideal" tempurature range.

If you're just asking for something to set as default, then that's different.

 

[Mike and Donna]

Assuming you are doing this as a commercial venture, I think you are painting yourself into a corner. While many reefers target 80 degrees as the "ideal" temperature, there are probably an equal number who target 76 degrees. Trying to standardize on something that is not inherently standard could limit your market. And, the "ideal" temperature depends on what you are keeping in your aquarium.

Finally, not knowing the use of the second set of set points, it is very hard to comment on what is the best number.

Not trying to be hard to get along with here...just giving an opinion.

I'll be interested to see where this is going.

 

[Canada_Dry]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mike and Donna:
<strong>Assuming you are doing this as a commercial venture, I think you are painting yourself into a corner. While many reefers target 80 degrees as the "ideal" temperature, there are probably an equal number who target 76 degrees. Trying to standardize on something that is not inherently standard could limit your market. And, the "ideal" temperature depends on what you are keeping in your aquarium.

Finally, not knowing the use of the second set of set points, it is very hard to comment on what is the best number.

Not trying to be hard to get along with here...just giving an opinion.

I'll be interested to see where this is going.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks again for your input. Ok this controller is only a small part of a complete life support system we are designing, this unit will be incredible, the features we have built into this unit are unlike anything on the market, I cant give full details now but very soon we will be posting them. As far as the 2 set points, let me define that again, it is not 2 separate outputs for high and 2 seperate outputs for low, but a choice of which temperature you want the output to be activated. From the replies so far you are right, 2 choices for high and 2 for low may not be enough.

What are your thoughts on this then, How about a choice of 4 set points for high and 4 for low, say a choice of 78, 77, 76, 75 for a low trip point, and 82, 83, 84, 85 for high?
Due to the design of this system we really would like to offer pre-set trip points as this would integrate into the master system much better. Please continue to add your valuable and much appreciated input. Thanks again. Mike.

 

[plankton123]

Mike,

If you are designing this controller slash environmental control system for aquaria then I think the feedback is quite clear. Folks want variable set points so they can control exactly when cooling/heating units turn on and turn off. Just look at the popularity of X-10 based controllers like Octopus and Neptune Aquacontroller. Also, I'd avoid using marketing hype like:

'...complete life support system we are designing, this unit will be incredible, the features we have built into this unit are unlike anything on the market...'

if you really want feedback during your 'final design stage' and not just a means of marketing your wares. Sounds like you need to do a little competive analysis of what you intend to market and what already exists (don't forget contrast features/price). And, I'm sure if you need some
beta testers you'll have no problems finding people here to beat on your product and provide valuable feedback.

For full disclosure I've been successfully using an X-10 based controller to control my entire reef tank for 2 years now; where I controll exactly when lights, chiller, heater, dosing pump, fans turn on and off. [Used to control CO2 feed to calcium reactor, but now just use a two-part calcium suppliment]

Scott

 

[Canada_Dry]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by plankton123:
<strong>Mike,

If you are designing this controller slash environmental control system for aquaria then I think the feedback is quite clear. Folks want variable set points so they can control exactly when cooling/heating units turn on and turn off. Just look at the popularity of X-10 based controllers like Octopus and Neptune Aquacontroller. Also, I'd avoid using marketing hype like:

'...complete life support system we are designing, this unit will be incredible, the features we have built into this unit are unlike anything on the market...'

if you really want feedback during your 'final design stage' and not just a means of marketing your wares. Sounds like you need to do a little competive analysis of what you intend to market and what already exists (don't forget contrast features/price). And, I'm sure if you need some
beta testers you'll have no problems finding people here to beat on your product and provide valuable feedback.

For full disclosure I've been successfully using an X-10 based controller to control my entire reef tank for 2 years now; where I controll exactly when lights, chiller, heater, dosing pump, fans turn on and off. [Used to control CO2 feed to calcium reactor, but now just use a two-part calcium suppliment]

Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>

I’m not sure what was wrong with stating that '...complete life support system we are designing, this unit will be incredible, the features we have built into this unit are unlike anything on the market...' It is a accurate description of our design, and we will be asking for beta testers very soon. As far as competitive analysis and what products are already available on the market, like I said in this statement '...complete life support system we are designing, this unit will be incredible, the features we have built into this unit are unlike anything on the market...' sums it up as well I as can say it. This is not a mickey mouse design several thousand dollars have went into this system, so bare with us we will be giving more details as soon as we have our design patents protected. We are not a multi million dollar company looking for advertising, we aren’t even a company yet, we are reefers just like you we attend reef meetings and enjoy the hobby, only we have an idea and plans for a product we would like to take to market, and are looking for input to fine tune the system to best suit all peoples requirements.

What it all boils down to is this, we need some input from you guys as to which 4 low and high temperature set points would give a wide enough range to fill the temperature needs of most
People. The question we have is this: if you had a choice of 4 low or high set points which temperatures would most people need? Example would you like a low set point choice of 77, 76, 78, 79 or 72, 73, 74, and 75? The same with the high temperature 81, 82, 83, 84 or what all we are asking is some input as to what the majority of people would like to see. Thanks for your input, Mike.

 

[naesco]

I think the trend is to higher temperatures, certainly above 80F.
Also I think the trend will also be to keep a small critter tank to raise pods, worms etc. and the ideal temperature is 84F

 

[D-Nak]

This just sounds more confusing than what is already out there, in terms of temperature regulation. Even though the product may do more, you're losing a valuable feature by having "set-points" instead of being variable.

I think people will still opt for other systems with more options than one that does more and has more features, but offers less options. For example, I know a few people who use X-10 based controllers but still use wavemakers connected to them because they didn't like the "clicking" of the X10 modules to control the powerheads.

D-Nak

 

[Bobzarry]

Personally I prefer separate controls for each function..IE: I use a temp controller (non x10), a separate heat controller, light timers, wave maker and so on. When you have integrated controls you risk everything breaking down at once and I prefer to play it safe.


just my 2¢

Bob

 

[plankton123]

Mike,

2,4,6,... fixed temperature points are too restrictive. Think about it. Let's say you
were to poll enough people to gleem the most
common set points for 80 percent of the reefers out there. You'd at least be missing the 20 percent of folks who don't fit and may risk even more that don't fit as trends in tank temp change. Moreover, there are studies (don't have references handy) that suggest that seasonal variances in temperature are 'better' for fish/corals and could even trigger reproduction in your tank inhabitants.

Here's my point, how much would it cost to add user-defined high/low set points so you can include all your potential customers and not artifitially limit them before the product even hits the flow.

BTW, thousands in design for a new product is a trivial amount. Sounds like you need to solicit more funding/backers and really design the product right up front. Just my humble opinion and please take it as such. The last thing I'd like to see is yet another hobbyst try to start a business only to fail because of poor design/busines plan, etc.

Good luck. And, if you need a critique of your design detail the greater reef community is always here. VGB

Scott

 

[Canada_Dry]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by plankton123:
<strong>Mike,

2,4,6,... fixed temperature points are too restrictive. Think about it. Let's say you
were to poll enough people to gleem the most
common set points for 80 percent of the reefers out there. You'd at least be missing the 20 percent of folks who don't fit and may risk even more that don't fit as trends in tank temp change. Moreover, there are studies (don't have references handy) that suggest that seasonal variances in temperature are 'better' for fish/corals and could even trigger reproduction in your tank inhabitants.

Here's my point, how much would it cost to add user-defined high/low set points so you can include all your potential customers and not artifitially limit them before the product even hits the flow.

BTW, thousands in design for a new product is a trivial amount. Sounds like you need to solicit more funding/backers and really design the product right up front. Just my humble opinion and please take it as such. The last thing I'd like to see is yet another hobbyst try to start a business only to fail because of poor design/busines plan, etc.

Good luck. And, if you need a critique of your design detail the greater reef community is always here. VGB

Scott</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks once again Scott for your input. Well we have studied this for a while and came up with this: With out going into electronic jumbo and circuit lay outs, we really would like to offer preset temp settings, as this will greatly reduce cost, as this will be a multi-function system. With that said, what are your thoughts on this: lets say we offer 10 selectable temperature set points for both high and low range.
We could offer this: low range, user selectable from 75f to 85f for both high and low. That’s a 10 degree range on both limits, I can't see anyone needing a lower set point than 75f or higher than 85f can you? Lower of higher than that really in our opinion just isn’t necessary, so why sink the extra money into some circuit, which the hobbyist will never use. Example why would anyone need to set the low point below 75f? This is for a reef system not a freezer controller. The same goes with the high end over 85f does not seem to be needed, unless you want to monitor your BBQ lol, what is your thoughts on that 10 degree range option? Correct me if I'm wrong if you know of a reason for a higher set point than 85 or a lower set point than 75 let me know. Thanks a lot for your input, it helps a great deal. Mike P.S. we can set the range to a different start stop point, e.g. 77 to 87 or 73 to 83 etc.

 

[Mike and Donna]

Sounds to me like if you go to 10 set points each, you effectively meet the objective of letting the reefer choose his/her temps.

Of course, if you want to get real fancy, you could add variable set points by time of day and time of year to simulate seasonality and daytime vs nighttime temperatures!

And, then you could have the lighting cycle change seasonally too...

Keep me away from the design table...I'd design something that would only have a market if Bill Gates decides to take up the hobby!

 

[Fredfish]

10 set points in the 75 to 85 degree range seems like plenty of flexibility to me.

I donèt see why anyone would want to go over 85 or below 75.

Fred.

 

[Canada_Dry]

Thanks Mike and Donna, Fredfish, plankton123 and everyone else who replied. The input helped us a great deal. Any other suggestions or comments you may have would be greatly valued, once again thanks. Mike

 

[Bobzarry]

10 set points in the 75 to 85 degree range seems like plenty of flexibility to me.


unless you were doing a cold water reef. Just playing devils advocate.


Bob

 

[plankton123]

Mike,

I've been actually toying with the idea of setting up a temperate/cold water tank for some local critters and that would mean an average temperature of about 58 deg F. But, this is the exception to the norm since most folks are keep tropical fish/corals.

Here's an idea. If you're set on presets then why not offer four ranges of presets that the user can choose from; where you get one degree increments over a 10 degree span.

0-cold water (deep): 45-55
1-cold water: 55-65
2-temperate: 65-75
3-tropical: 75-85

You still don't get seasonal variation, but at least you could use the same controller for many more applications. Although, in this scheme you are locked into 1 degree increments.

I still think there must be an economically viable way of having user-presets instead of having to hard code them. 8^)

Other features that would be nice are over and under temperature alarm channels. e.g. if the temperature goes over the max/min (75/85) for range 3 then do something. The something could be a master relay or swith that might turn off all your metal halides if the temperature goes over 85 or turns on an emergency heater located in a different part of the tank if the temp goes below 75. You get the idea and what I use using the Neptune Aquacontroller via X-10 modules on my tank for. Let me tell you that the under/over channels saved my tank last year when the temperature in my house when to 95 deg F one day during the summer. The chiller could not cope with such a temperature difference and if the controller didn't turn the metal halides off I'm not sure what would have happened to my tank. The tank stayed at an acceptable 82.5 deg F but the chiller was running continuously. What an electric bill for that day!

Scott

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: plankton123 ]</p>

 

[Canada_Dry]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by plankton123:
<strong>Mike,

I've been actually toying with the idea of setting up a temperate/cold water tank .....
[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: plankton123 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Great Idea, Scott, I am designing that circuit right now, an emergency over heat setting at say 87f, which will kill all power to heaters, and lighting and activate cooling fans. Any other ideas?, I really should fill you in on what this system can do, this temp controller is only a small portion of the systems capabilities, it can do so much more, I will fill you all in very soon, when I have all the final bugs ironed out, which should be soon, if I don't run out of hair to pull out, lol. I don’t mean to brag or hype up this system, but I am very proud of it, I have been pulling my hair out designing and re- designing schematics for over a year and a half to get this far. Just was wondering Scott, if you don’t mind me asking, how much money do you think you have invested in your Neptune Aquacontroller and X-10 modules? Thanks, once again for responding, Mike

[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: Canada_Dry ]</p>