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Joe_B

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When I wrote this post back in June, I never dreamed it would become a heated debate about the dark-side of capitalism. A lot has changed for me in the last three months; my hours have been cut at work. my wife's business is slowing, money is TIGHT!!!!! Keep in mind I live in a very wealthy state people like Paul Newman and David Letterman live here. To make matters worse I live on the fringe of a county where the average home costs about $250,000-$300,000.........Oh, never mind it has been a bad day!!!! I don't think life was meant to be lived this way. The all mighty dollar has been placed above human relationships. If I ever find an LFS that offers service, knowledge and quality with out trying to take advantage; I will be there three times a week with coffee for the owner and a smile. For now though I have to do what I can to save and that was the original post. Thanks to everyone for your insights and ideas please don't turn this thread into a flame war!!!!!!!!!

-JB
 

Ryan22

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RedCynarina,
Where in Mass. is your store? I'd like to come check it out if I'm close enough. Email me info/directions. Are you in the Springfield area? That is pretty close to me.

Monkeyboy,
The store you work at is in Southwick, right? Could you e-mail me with directions from 91 north?

Thanks Guys
Ryan
 

JennM

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Sitting next to Alice in the idiot box...I guess we're good company, eh?
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Davelin, I did mention in my comments toward you that I offered them with DUE RESPECT, and if you've ever read my posts, you would know that I do not flame people. I generally don't reply to posts if I can't say something constructive, and I did try to shed some factual light on what things REALLY cost. I do take exception to being called an idiot, but if that's your best comeback to my facts about the LFS business, that speaks for itself.

JennM
 
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Anonymous

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davelin315:
<STRONG> By the way, Cheese, where are your additions to the flame?!
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Well, I try to save $ by (a) making my setup as energy efficient as possible, (b) reusing equipment, and (c) using homemade or recycled rock as base rock.
 

SPC

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And don't forget about all the money you save on fish food, do the fish like Swiss or American better?
My opinions about this topic are in full agreement with all who have supported the LFS, nothing really to add to what has already been said.
Steve
 

Alice

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
This means that a damsel that you might be paying $3.00 for initially costs approximately $.03. A nice angel that you pay $40.00 for might cost about $.40.

I work part time at an LFS; if you've seen a stock list with prices like that, please send me the name, we might actually be able to operate more often in the black than in the red. The store I work at prides itself on having low prices and trying to get high quality livestock. No way have I ever
seen prices like that on a stock list. And then you need to figure in the price of shipping and caring for the livestock.

~Alice

Oops; I hadn't read page two of this thread before I posted, but that's ok. Davelin, you can call me an idiot too, if you want. If it puts me in the same class as JennM, I'll consider that a compliment.

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: Alice ]
 

davelin315

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JennM

The idiot comment is very appropriate in this case IMO. It is not directed at the content of your post, it is directed at the direction your post took. You were very negative towards me, and the "with all due respect" means nothing and in fact, comes across as patronizing and arrogant. If that's not how it was meant, so be it, I'm in the wrong. But, my reading of your post, that's not how it was meant, especially because you chose to emphasize that in your most humble opinion, I have NO CLUE. That's an insult and it's unfair to take a comment I made out of context and use it to climb on top of your soapbox. When I make a negative statement on this board and realize that I've done so, I apologize and admit that I was wrong. Not so in your case. By the way, Alice, I do not consider you sitting in the idiot box with JennM, because, unlike her, you did not choose to go on the attack in your post. You chose the adult way, by questioning without insulting, not by accusing me of having no clue. I do not remember the place I got the stocklist from, but I can tell you it was a direct wholesaler from Bali, and as many have pointed out, including myself, these prices are initial costs, and only include the actual price of the fish itself, not the box, not the shipping, not customs, not licensing, not overhead, etc. etc.. If you do not buy direct from the original wholesaler, then no doubt you don't see prices like this anymore. And, I will qualify my remarks, as the list I saw was about 5 years ago when I was considering going into the business myself, but I would think the prices would remain the same as it has become mainstream rather than unusual to carry marine fish and inverts, so I would imagine if anything, they have gone down, especially with the advent of aquaculture.

One final parting shot (until I am insulted again, that is, or I see a point raised by someone else that I would like to address), if you are so into supporting your LFSs, why haven't you posted to the thread I put up about good LFS? Anyone on a soapbox (and that includes myself) should be willing to say who and what they support.
 

JennM

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
HEY AYRES, you're right, I've never gone into the garbage (here in the US it's perfectly legal), but I have been given styros with the labels on them. I never said that I got invoices, only supplier names. From there, I get the price list direct. And I do know exactly what the markup is.

Davelin, I never said my opinion was humble
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I see you've had this conversation before...

I'm sorry if you took my comments so personally, I have taken for granted that most here have a thicker skin.

I was simply trying to debunk what I see as misinformation. In various posts you've estimated STORES' the markup on fish from 1000% to 10000%. I'm simply stating that is not correct. There is a thing called the chain of custody, and each link in that chain takes a cut, and what you saw or your friend saw, or whoever, didn't see the whole picture.

My information is firsthand, not rummaged from a dumpster. I am IN the business myself.

As to why I didn't reply to the earlier threads, well I am not a daily visitor to this board. I participate on several boards, including the one for the Atlanta Reef Club over at Reef Central, as well as some species boards and lists. I guess I missed that discussion on that particular day.

I hope that satisfies your curiosity.

JennM

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: JennM ]
 

Len

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Stop the fighting, kids.
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If this was in RC, you'd all be banned by now (yes, I'm still a little peeved).

Dave, you've got a serious superiority complex. Fixation on always being right is getting the best of you. Jenn climbs on her soap box, and you feel compleed to scale a higher soap box: how ironic
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Having reread Jenn's post twice, I have no idea how "You're an Idiot" is anywhere near appropriate. To Jenn's credit, you did exaggerate figures by extreme magnitudes, of which she felt obliged to correct (as would I).

A simple question that resolves all this would be: when was the last exhorbently wealthy LFS or MO aquarium retailer you've seen?

Whatever the market will bare: that's capitalism. Greed, in this case is the driving force, and certainly is not "evil."
 

Chris Lucia

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As you all bicker and squash one another, I'll be doing some water changes and glass cleaning on my reef displays in the store.... Big coral shipment arriving from Timor on Monday. And yes I mark everything up 10,000 % (Just like Tom at Inland
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) The higher the prices, the longer I get to enjoy looking at the corals before they are sold!!!! The only 9 for $99 you'll find here is astria snails!!! For those of you who are way to oversensitive, I'm kidding. Lighten up everyone, this is supposed to be FUN!!
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davelin315

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To answer your question about the last exorbitantly wealthy LFS owner, I can give you 2 examples here in the Chicago area. The first is Old Town Aquarium which is in the heart of Old Town, where property values are ridiculous, a small building goes for over a million dollars there, and a large one goes for several. The second one is Living Sea Aquarium in Park Ridge, where the real estate in recent years has also skyrocketed. The amount of space that they have is incredible, in fact, over the past few years they have expanded twice, taking more and more space up to the point where they have approximately 1/3 of the block. These are both stores that are very knowledgeable, and offer good to excellent stock, but their prices can be anywhere from good to downright greedy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Dave, you've got a serious superiority complex. Fixation on always being right is getting the best of you.Jenn climbs on her soap box, and you feel compleed to scale a higher soap box: how ironic Having reread Jenn's post twice, I have no idea how "You're an Idiot" is anywhere near appropriate. To Jenn's credit, you did exaggerate figures by extreme magnitudes, of which she felt obliged to correct (as would I).


Addressing the first part of your post, I do not have a fixation on being right unless I am personally attacked. I am sure that since you have already taken JennM's side in this, that you will understand what I am saying when I say that, with all due respect, you have NO CLUE what you are talking about (I am sure that as a reasonable person you will see that my use of with all due respect tempers anything that follows it and therefore, the fact that I say you have NO CLUE is not an insult to you or a personal attack).

As far as the prices I quoted being exaggerated, if and when I get ahold of that price list again, I will forward it to you and whoever else wants a copy of it. As I said in all of my previous posts on this subject, I am not sure of the percentage (seems to have slipped my mind on what percentage $3.00 is of $0.03 - 1000% or 10000%, whichever) but I am sure that the end markup from the beginning product is extremely high, but is justified in some cases, not in others. Your post, by the way, also smells of someone who has not read my original post thoroughly, and only took a cursory look at the numbers mentioned.

It's always nice to see that some people can address a topic in an adult fashion like Carpentersreef or Redcynaria.
 

monkeyboy

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Yeah, i'm not really sure where you got the 4 cent damsel thing (they'd have to catch 100 to make 4 bucks? i dont think so!). And that LFS with the $10 dollar salt can't be taking a markup, it's more like a bait item, not that that's bad (i'm not sure that anyone has EVER walked out of a LFS with just what they had on their list...). I really hope that those who have good LFS's will support them to some extent and remember that that information they're giving you ain't free!

BTW, we're lucky this thread didn't get shut down, you could feel the heat from the homepage...
 

monkeyboy

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Davelin315. Ok so if a damsel costs us 3 cents then what would be a fair price to pay? At 100% markup thats 6 cents. Oh wait, add shipping, so maybe a buck more. I respect you for all the good advice you've given on this board but you just don't get this whole LFS thing. What would you considder an acceptable markup for this theoretical damsel?

But just think logically, would it make any sense at all for a collector (and it would have to be straight from the collector for 3 cents!!!) to sell fish for 3 cents? How could he ever cover his costs and make somewhat of a profit selling all his fish for under a buck??!?!?!!??!?!??!?!? What sheer volume would that take? I don't even think petco gets their fish that cheap!
 

davelin315

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Monkeyboy, again, please read my posts before you rush to judgment. I said that there are markups that are reasonable and legitimate. I also said that I support my LFSs. I have also said in the past that I have not been impressed with many MO fish. I don't go to exclusive stores where I pay $.25 for a damsel, if I did, I would open up my own store and buy my stuff from them. All I have ever said is that you can get fish for under $.10 wholesale. Again, I have said it over and over, this does not include any shipping, licensing, tax, customs, or duties that may be incurred, or overhead.

By the way, thanks for the compliment on advice, and if you have read some of my other posts, which I know that you have, you will also know that if I'm wrong I admit it, or if someone else expresses an opinion or gives constructive criticism, I don't flame them, I take in what they say and learn from it. I also do not back up something without fact, and when I do express an opinion not based on fact, I say so, or refer to the expertise of others. So, when I say that these prices are legit, I am not full of it, they do exist, and when I say the ultimate markup is 10000% (10000% or .03 = $3.00) I am not lying. I also do not pretend to say that this markup is all paid for by the consumer. One of the above posts talked about profit margins versus markup. Well, I'm sure it was right on the money. I'm sure that in the end, a .03 damsel costs the retailer over a dollar, and that the presentation of that damsel for sale costs the retailer additional money, and that these costs are made up for by passing it on to the consumer. That is the way of business. I have never criticized this method, as it goes on everyday. How much did this Dorito I'm eating cost to make? Probably about $1.00 for every 1000 chips or so, or less. How much did I pay for the bag? $4.99. Am I complaining about it? No. All I ever sought to do in my post was inform people that yes, there are stores that will rip you off. There are stores in my area that despite their ridiculous prices, I still shop at for those "bait" items like cheap salt, or the monthly sale item. I never ever said that you shouldn't support your LFS, only that you should shop around, because one store might be marking something up a lot more than the next.

And a note for all, I have yet to receive what I ordered from this place, as it is a special order that they need to find before sending it to me, but check out how low these prices are at this MO place. Obviously, their overhead is much lower than a retail store, but if you look at their fish prices, and consider the fact that this is a place that is based in Florida, then think how cheap it would be to order something from Indonesia where the dollar is worth a lot more.sealective.com

I don't know what quality their merchandise is, as I am still awaiting my first special order, but it gives you a little perspective on what I am talking about (and this is a retailer, not a wholesaler).
 

lkaras

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Here is some prices that are at wholesale direct from Bali
6-DAMSEL/CHROMIS FISH
601 ABUDEFDUF DICKII BALI STAR DAMSEL 0.35
603 ABUDADUF MELAS BLUE-FIN DAMSEL 0.35
604 ABUDEFDUF NIGRORIS YELLOW HONEY CHROMIS 0.45
605 ABUDEFDUF OXYODON VELVENT DAMSEL 0.50
606 ABUDAFDUF SAXTILLES SERGENT MAJOR DAMSEL 0.22
607 ABUDEFDUF SPECIE RED HONEY CHROMIS 0.40
608 CHROMI CAERULEUS GREEN CHROMIS 0.22
611 DASCYLUS ARUANUS 3-STRIPE DAMSEL 0.22
612 DASCYLUS MELANURUS 4-STRIPE DAMSEL 0.24
613 DASCYLUS RETICULATUS 2-STRIPE DAMSEL 0.22
614 DASCYLUS TRIMACULATUS DOMINO DAMSEL 0.40
617 POMACENTRUS COELESTIS YELLOW BELLIED DAMSEL 0.40
618 POMACENTRUS COERULEUS BLUE DAMSEL 0.40
619 POMACENTRUS PARASEMA YELLOW-TAIL DAMSEL 0.35
690 POMACENTRUS SPECIE ASSORTED DAMSEL/CHROMIS 0.22
Not that Im trying to start anything but some have to admit that some stores due charge a wee bit much on live stock.

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davelin315

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Thanks Ikarus for the support. I just put in a call to my friend who has the list I spoke about to see if I can get it and then also get an updated copy. Be careful, though, now that you've posted here, you could be called a liar by some out there.

Sorry to add one more thing to illustrate a point. One of my LFSs sells peppermint shrimp for $39.00. Anybody out there think that's a fair price for a peppermint shrimp? That's more than a fire shrimp costs at most places IMO.

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: davelin315 ]
 

fishfarmer

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As someone who has bashed my LFS's in the past I will not do so here. I wouldn't consider my LFS's bad, they just need improvements. As I get to know the owners better I feel more inclined to SUPPORT them and TRY to EDUCATE them about the trend of the reefkeeping hobby, which is kind of why we are all here in this forum anyway.

As a consumer, I will always be looking for the best deals and going out of my way to get them, but sometimes paying the higher price at the LFS is worth it for the local service I will receive.

I do MO on occasion when the LFS doesn't have the products I need. Most of my initial reef supplies were MO just because my LFS didn't carry the products I needed and I didn't know Inland Reef Aquaria existed
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I always buy my corals and fish from LFS, that's just common sense. I want to see it alive before I buy. I'd rather the LFS suffer the lost shipment than me.
 

gazpep

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And those prices are the wholesale prices at the point of shipment. The collector probably got less than half of that for actually netting the fish in the first place.

When all is said and done this is not something unique to the aquarium fish trade. In any supply chain the original grower/ collector/ producer gets a very small percentage of the final price paid by the consumer. There are costs and risks added at every stage of the chain, and of course a profit added at every stage of the chain. Its called business. Short of growing, collecting, producing everything yourself you cannot avoid it. Businesses only survive as long as sufficient consumers perceive value in what they buy and continue to buy. The perceived value would take into account the face-to face advice, immediacy, convenience issues etc where the LFS ( in the example of the aquarium trade ) can expect a premium for providing those as part of the service.
 

JeremyR

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This post is funny. A tranship list is meaningless.. the fish price is meaningless.. it's all the other charges that matter. If fish were really taht cheap, everybody and their brother would be getting rich in this business.
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Carpentersreef

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I don't think running all these numbers back and forth is proving much. There can be SO many variables in a business situation, that it can be very easy to jump to conclusions as to the business' situation, whether it's making or losing money. Davelin, in the case of the stores that you mentioned, that are operating in million$ plus facilities and are expanding, they must be doing something right, as far as operating a business goes. Who knows? Maybe they've been able to put themselves in a position similar to McDonalds restaurants, where McDonalds owns the cattle ranches that ultimately supply their franchise chain. If that's the case, then I say more power to them! Profit every step of the way. I wish I was doing that! If they were indeed overpricing and gouging people, then the business will, sooner or later, fail. Prudent business people will not let that happen, they will continue to charge what their market will bear, as any smart business person would.
I personally have a fundamental problem with searching out livestock/products primarily on price. Once I have aquired a certain livestock specimen, I feel that I am commited to doing whatever is best for that animal. It may mean paying more for the animal in the first place, or it may mean paying more to my LFS for dry goods to help ensure that I am doing my part to help keep a good LFS in business. Don't get me wrong, charity begins at home, but the end decision is what is really best for the animals in our care.

Davelin, I checked out that site in Florida you mentioned, and they do have VERY low prices, but they specified that they would email customers privately about shipping charges. Have you received that info yet? I hope they're a reputable company. I didn't like the picture of a diver "riding" a hammerhead shark. Doesn't scream "responsible" to me.

BTW, my LFS is waisaquarium.com

rough website, but they treat me GREAT!

Mitch
 

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