Not sure.

[frisbee]

If tap water is so bad for a reef tank, how would it manifest itself in a freshwater tank?

 

[Anonymous]

Tap water is not bad for either tank. I use plant life to condition the water for all my fw and salt tanks. FW tanks run for years with a very heavy stable population of live bearers and very little maintenance.

 

[tazdevil]

I wouldn't use my TW to replenish unless I was in the mood for a nasty algae bloom. Even though it goes through a whole house filtration system (which does remove a lot of minerals from it) it still has a very high Nitrate content to it. Even with a planted tank, it's too much and causes issues. I only use RO/DI from my tap source as a result.


Simply put, at least test your tap water and see what your dealing with.

 

[Anonymous]

If tap water is so bad for a reef tank, how would it manifest itself in a freshwater tank?

everyones tw is different, and your can differ from month to month, and hour to hour

if you don't know what's in your tap, you don't know what's going into your tank

if you know that your water is absolutely pure (as in rodi processed) you can then know exactly what you're putting into the tank by way of what you add to the rodi water

which way do you think would have less (potential) risk overall to the tank inhabitants?

there's also a far wider parameter set in freshwater than in saltwater-all saltwater fish pretty much havce the same pH, specific gravity, etc., demands-fw, on the other hand, can have quite a diffferent spectrum, from soft acidic water loving fish, to hard alkaline water lovers (discus, neons, etc for the former, africans, brackish for the latter)

so your tap may be ok, and it may not-you first need to find out what your tap water is actually like


fwiw- any decent water conditioner will make the water safe for fish, and if you're just lookin' to have a pretty community tank-shouldn't be a big deal

if, however, you're looking at this at a true hobbyist level, with the expectations of breeding/spawning, etc etc-some type of water processor might be worth a looky-loo

the manifestations are pretty much the same-ranging from mild nuisance algae blooms to full fledged wipeouts, depending on the nature of the 'baddies' in the water your overall general maintenance practices, and the constitution of the fish's themselves.

 

[Anonymous]

The question is not whether or no tap water as is works.

the question is how to condition the water for the aquarium.

People using ro/di water are using tap water filtered with a mechanical (ro) and chemical (di) filter.

I use live plants to condition the water. And by not doing water changes the quality of the tap water is irrelevant. As my experience in 1/2 dozen cites, running FW planted tanks with heavy bioloads for up to 6 years continuous tells me. Including fish to require low pH softer water as well fish that are less demanding.

One important benefit is that these tanks are so balanced and stable they can be left alone for up to three weeks with no fish losses. So I can go on vacation and not worry.

.02

 

[Anonymous]

The question is not whether or no tap water as is works.

er-yes it is-and i've seen enough people who's tap was absolutely deadly to fish and aquatic life to leave no doubt as to their being proof of that

the question is how to condition the water for the aquarium.

People using ro/di water are using tap water filtered with a mechanical (ro) and chemical (di) filter.

that's not exactly a truthful or correct answer-an rodi unit, for all practial purposes, leaves PURE H2O with no other chemicals in it-it's not simply 'filtered'-a brita would be 'filtered

I use live plants to condition the water. And by not doing water changes the quality of the tap water is irrelevant. As my experience in 1/2 dozen cites, running FW planted tanks with heavy bioloads for up to 6 years continuous tells me. Including fish to require low pH softer water as well fish that are less demanding.

water quality is ALWAYS relevant-how can you make such an assinine statement? especially if there's something in the tap that your precious plant filters DON'T remove, and it keeps adding up in the tank ? :roll:

One important benefit is that these tanks are so balanced and stable they can be left alone for up to three weeks with no fish losses. So I can go on vacation and not worry.

.02
-.019

your statements are as always so utterly irresponsibly based on NOTHING with any real validity, other than your own unbelieveably self imposed ignorance-and to further them as advice for others on a bb is criminal towards a hobbyist's charges quality of life
and that's MY 0.02

have you ever seen tap with a PO4 level of >5.0?

i have

have you ever seen tap with ammonia and nitrite reading through the roof?

i have

have you ever had a water carrier add an aluminum based coagulant to the water supply and watched 70 tanks with slightly sensitive dwarf ciclids and loaches die within hours because of that coagulant (which is in the DRINKING water) ?

i have

what were the various tds/chemistry parameters in all of the cities you lived in? i'm curious to know if you knew if there was even an inherent problem with your tap at any locale-you may be just good and lucky to always have had access to good quality water from the start-that certainly was a better/bigger help to your success than your approach!

 

[Anonymous]

And have you ever seen a 10g tank with stable population of 20-30 fish for 6 years with tap water that had >5ppm phosphate, cloramine, from river water, well water, hard and soft sources, with no algae in the glass? I have about a dozen times.

I do not recommend filling a tank with tap water and then sticking the fish in there. What I recommend is using the plants to condition the water before adding a single fish. Then building up the bioload slowly so the plants keep ahead of the bioload and condition the water.

Again the question is not whether you have to condition the water but rather which is the best method. I simply trust plants more than any mechanical filter. And setup up a system that operates just like our lakes and oceans.

 

[tazdevil]

operates just like our lakes and oceans.

There's the problem with your logic, Bob. It does not operate in this manner.

Lakes are replenished with fresh water from multiple sources (rainwater, underground springs, rivers etc.). There are multiple processes that are occuring that we do not understand at this point in freshwater environements.

Oceans are a completely different beast altogether. Hell, we know more about the moon than we do the oceans. There are so many processes that interact with, and cause changes to, the oceanic water that we couldn't even dream of duplicating in our little glass cages. Just to give you an idea: The "smokers" in the pacific that belch out thousands of tons of nutrients in the oceans every second. How do these chemicals/nutrients interact with, and change, the oceanic water on a global scale? No one knows at this point. This is just a small example of the myriad of interactions and reactions that we have little or no knowledge of.

 

[Anonymous]

operates just like our lakes and oceans.

There's the problem with your logic, Bob. It does not operate in this manner.

Lakes are replenished with fresh water from multiple sources (rainwater, underground springs, rivers etc.). There are multiple processes that are occuring that we do not understand at this point in freshwater environements.

Oceans are a completely different beast altogether. Hell, we know more about the moon than we do the oceans. There are so many processes that interact with, and cause changes to, the oceanic water that we couldn't even dream of duplicating in our little glass cages. Just to give you an idea: The "smokers" in the pacific that belch out thousands of tons of nutrients in the oceans every second. How do these chemicals/nutrients interact with, and change, the oceanic water on a global scale? No one knows at this point. This is just a small example of the myriad of interactions and reactions that we have little or no knowledge of.

So why do my tanks run for years with 20-30 fish in a 10g, tap water, no filter, no water changes?

So you don't agree with my logic. So what?

You think the lakes and ocean are different. So what?

the tanks still run for years and years with this method.

Perhaps there is some other explanation. Other than the balance and stability the plants give the system.

But whatever the reason bottom line is they work.

 

[tazdevil]

You think the lakes and ocean are different. So what?

I don't think they're different, I know they are. Which is why your analogy of:

And setup up a system that operates just like our lakes and oceans.

Doesn't work. It is not the same, and we could never make it that way. When you can admit that, you'll understand why people do not approve your methods.

 

[Anonymous]

You think the lakes and ocean are different. So what?

I don't think they're different, I know they are. Which is why your analogy of:

And setup up a system that operates just like our lakes and oceans.

Doesn't work. It is not the same, and we could never make it that way. When you can admit that, you'll understand why people do not approve your methods.

And still I have had a stable population of 20-30 platys or guppies in a 10g tank for 6 years. With no filter, no circulation, low lights, tap water, no water changes. And I have done it a dozen times. and with smaller numbers of angelfish, mollys, a cichild or 2, Silver hatchedtish, barbs, catfish, and probably some others.

So tell my why is doesn't work?

Why people don't approve of those methods?

You see we will just go round and round on this.

My experiences and ideas are different that yours.

That doesn't mean they don't work.

And readers of this thread are free to try them out and see if they work.

And that is what is important.

not whether you or vitz or others grand the seal of approval on these methods.

 

[gpodio]

Most tap waters are quite fine in FW tanks. The 3 key items to cover are chlorine, chloramine and heavy metals, all of which are easily taken care of with a single complete conditioner. I've run into some really bad well water in the past which I would not use, but I have yet to find myself in a situation where the local tap water was unsuitable for FW tanks. If anything, the hardness may not be the preferred level depending on what you are keeping...

Nitrate levels in tap water are usually well below anything problematic...

It's good to know what's in your tap water, and it's easy to get a report on it, but you'll likely not run into any problems if using a complete water conditioner.

 

[tazdevil]

Nitrate levels in tap water are usually well below anything problematic...

I have 45ppm nitrate, after it goes thru whole house filtration. Before, I don't want to know. What I can do is provide you with the following observation of every tank, both fresh and salt, that I have set up while living in this area. I have set up and helped others set up a total of 35 fresh, and 10 salt systems. EVERY time we used tap water (again in the area I live), massive hair algae blooms ensued. The tanks cleared up as soon as the systems were stripped, restarted with either RO, or RO/DI water usage. This is my observation of what has occured in this area. As stated earlier by other posters, if your doing a fish only system, with no plants or reef/fowlr system, tap water can be ok, albeit depending on your water. Personally, I wouldn't use it, but that is my opinion, and my .03$.

 

[Anonymous]

gpodio:

Sure.

Chlorine is a gas the dissapates rapidly out of the plumbing.

chloramine is a liquid which breaks down rapidly outside of the plumbing. And breaks down to chlorine and ammonia. The ammonia is rapidily consumed by the plants.

The plants rapidly bioaccumulate any heavy ions in the water. For instance, a marine macro algae rapidily consumed copper in lab tests. So rapidly that 1/10 pound (wet) of the algae consumed copper at or higher then 90% of the at faucet levels in US major cities in two weeks in a 55g tank.

Additionally, the dechloriantors and ammonia blocks also lock up oxygen. People using them plus my experience is that when used according to instructions they can and will crash the pH and kh.

Taz

I understand your concerns but I have recently started measuring ammonia, nitrItes, nitrates, phosphates, Kh, pH and gh in two new Fw tanks. NitrAtes were high for a few weeks. In one tank 20ppm. Then dropped down to 0. Ammonia was unmeasureable. nitrItes were .5 ppm for a couple of days. KH and gh stayed constant for a few months then started rising. pH in tanks with no peat moss in the substrate was 8.4-8.8 in a few days. With peat moss it started at 7.0-7.2 then in a few weeks rose slowly to the 8.4-8.8 level as neon tetras were added.

One tank at startup had a ph of 6.5 with a peat moss and Soil master select substrate. The ph was 7.5 24 hours later.

The tanks after a few weeks were supporting 2-3 fish per gallon. Additionally, I starte several quart jars. Two jars had baby guppies and another had a neon. The fish have lived in those jars for 3-4 months now. (I was testing the effects of various substraits, water, and being open to the air on pH, kh and gh)

Sure I have hair algae I have to harvest. But I have no algae in the water or on the glass.


All

Again a week with tons of plants removes the metals and definately the chlorine and chloramine. Then my just replacing the evaporative water and not doing water changes the plants easily keep up with those things.

But still that is just what works for me.

 

[Anonymous]

Frisbee,

I've been keeping freshwater and marine tanks for 22 years, I'm a member of the "Crew" over at Wet Web, and have recently published several articles on fish husbandry. I'm also teaching a marine fish husbandry class for MACO soon.

Listen to Taz and Vitz.

 

[Anonymous]

...
I'm a member of the "Crew" over at Wet Web, and have recently published several articles on fish husbandry.

...

.

Then I suggest you talk to Robert Fenner. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

What does that mean?

 

[Anonymous]

pssst

(even he doesn't know)

he also doesn't know that chloramine is actually quite stable-it's greater stability re: the chlorine to ammonia bond, and it's far slower dissipation over regular chlorine is why water carriers use it in the first place!

beasle wrote:

So why do my tanks run for years with 20-30 fish in a 10g, tap water, no filter, no water changes?

my guess is pure dumb luck

one thing i guarantee you is that your tanks don't 'run' nearly at the health levels of those hobbyists who use far more common sense and applied proven knowledge

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, not sure why the mods tolerate him. :?
I would have banned him years ago.

 

[gpodio]

Nitrate levels in tap water are usually well below anything problematic...

I have 45ppm nitrate, after it goes thru whole house filtration. Before, I don't want to know. What I can do is provide you with the following observation of every tank, both fresh and salt, that I have set up while living in this area. I have set up and helped others set up a total of 35 fresh, and 10 salt systems. EVERY time we used tap water (again in the area I live), massive hair algae blooms ensued. The tanks cleared up as soon as the systems were stripped, restarted with either RO, or RO/DI water usage. This is my observation of what has occured in this area. As stated earlier by other posters, if your doing a fish only system, with no plants or reef/fowlr system, tap water can be ok, albeit depending on your water. Personally, I wouldn't use it, but that is my opinion, and my .03$.

Wow, sounds like you have bigger problems than fishtank water there... 45ppm is indeed high, I am quite certain 45ppm is in the "unsafe" region for drinking water... or very close to it! These levels in conjunction with PO4 and ammonia can certainly help algae, but your biggest problem is the fact that you are diluting nitrates in the tank with 45ppm nitrate in your tap water, so in the end the levels in the tank are going to be difficult to maintain any lower.

I don't think these levels are in the majority though, I have setup many tanks in the NE and Europe where tap water is horrible at best and I have rarely seen NO3 levels above 20ppm. In the NE I usually see 5-10ppm.

I would be cutting the tap water too in your case. 40-50ppm NO3 in a FW tank can still be algae free, but it isn't ideal. If it were a well planted tank then NO3 is really of little concern as with sufficient volume and light you can easily consume that amount.