Pre-quarantined fish for sale?

[JLAudio]

This section of liveaquaria.com claim to pre-quarentine all fish sold in this certain section. There definitly more money but for this extra care I think its worth it. I know you should still quarentine just to be safe. Any thoughts?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=425

 

[marrone]

This was something that LA posted in LA's forum on RC a while back. While it sounds great, and it is a step in the right direction, you're still taking a chance by placing a fish directly into your main tank. Unless LA fully guarantee that the fish, and all your other fish, wouldn't come down with anything, from being place directly into your tank, I would still QT all their fish.

 

[mstrofdisaster]

This section of liveaquaria.com claim to pre-quarentine all fish sold in this certain section. There definitly more money but for this extra care I think its worth it. I know you should still quarentine just to be safe. Any thoughts?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=425

Of course the QT rule still applies, but I think selling 2 levels of livestock is an interesting business practice. Like saying 'these fish here we really take care of, those over there, not so much.' Just my .02

 

[JLAudio]

I would aswell, but possibly reducing time in QT because sometimes QTing large fish and multiple fish is very difficult unless you have a very large QT tank. I have 20 gallon Qt and find stablilizing the paramaters consistantly problematic. I have used your advice (marrone) and do it all to a tee, however its seems to be a death sentence for most of my fish do to its instability, even with frequent WC's and light feeding, its just not practical and have attempted it on many occasions. I have recently discussed this with one of our vendors and the individual stated that they have the same problem, with keeping water stable in an empty (theoretically correct) but non practical enviornment

I would love to know they were prequarentined cause I feel every fish I put in QT dies!

 

[JLAudio]

Of course the QT rule still applies, but I think selling 2 levels of livestock is an interesting business practice. Like saying 'these fish here we really take care of, those over there, not so much.' Just my .02

My take wasnt that these were selected, but probably the leftovers that made it more than 2 weeks. All probably get this treatment but are shipped out fast, these are probably leftovers and some intelligent marketing.

 

[mstrofdisaster]

I was cracking-wise about the marketing behind it :biglaugh:

 

[marrone]

I would aswell, but possibly reducing time in QT because sometimes QTing large fish and multiple fish is very difficult unless you have a very large QT tank. I have 20 gallon Qt and find stablilizing the paramaters consistantly problematic. I have used your advice (marrone) and do it all to a tee, however its seems to be a death sentence for most of my fish do to its instability, even with frequent WC's and light feeding, its just not practical and have attempted it on many occasions. I have recently discussed this with one of our vendors and the individual stated that they have the same problem, with keeping water stable in an empty (theoretically correct) but non practical enviornment

I would love to know they were prequarentined cause I feel every fish I put in QT dies!

Part of the problem is you shouldn't be trying to QT multi fish in the same tank, especially a small tank. If you need to QT multi fish or a large fish you should invest in a large container, like a rubber-maid 50gal tub. That should keep your fish fine for a number of weeks, with light feeding and doing water changes.


It's great that LA is doing QT and parasite preventive measures with their fish but it shouldn't take away from the time that you're QT your fish.

 

[JLAudio]

Part of the problem is you shouldn't be trying to QT multi fish in the same tank, especially a small tank. If you need to QT multi fish or a large fish you should invest in a large container, like a rubber-maid 50gal tub. That should keep your fish fine for a number of weeks, with light feeding and doing water changes.


It's great that LA is doing QT and parasite preventive measures with their fish but it shouldn't take away from the time that you're QT your fish.

Marrone your 100% right, however I only had 2 (2-3inch) fish in my 20 gallon qt, 2 25% water changes a week, minimal flake feeding every other day, still nitrites. I believe the copper kills off beneficial bacteria, making water very unstable. I have valued all the info you and many other members gave me. Its just kind of a losing battle. I think I will re-setup my qt just doing hypo, maybe this will allow bacteria to re-establish itself

 

[Slamajamajama]

good thread...
its still better than the get'em and sell'em method we have here...

 

[marrone]

Unless you're treating the fish for something you shouldn't be using copper.

As for water changes doing 2-25% water changes mayn't be enough. What you want to do with is after 1 week is move the fish to another container and replace all the water, also clean out the tank. Then dip the fish back to the tank.

 

[JLAudio]

good thread...
its still better than the get'em and sell'em method we have here...

Im with you, I think with a minimum of 2 weeks a large majority of diseased would be detected and if you check the site regularly as do I, you will see a lot of them are on there for a while, so in some cases your getting a fully quarentined healthy fish. Far from perfect but in the right direction

 

[drperetz]

...

knowing many, people dont quarantine
anything.

just drop it into their Main Display.

I am fine with that but convincing people that quarantine is unnecessary is not a honest sales stretigy.. But yet again, I have met a few vendors and store that have been honest, at least with me.

 

[KathyC]

JL..I have to agree with Marrone one one point, your 2 x25% water changes aren't enough over the course of a week.
You mention setting up your QT again and possibly doing so in hypo..that isn't a good idea IMO. If you put a healthy fish in there you are stressing it yourself, no point in that as you could possibly bring on an illness that way.
I can't imagine that you would be attempting to put a fish other than a healthy one in there in your case (starting up again).

I am also NOT a fan of keeping a QT tank running all the time. I believe you should have all the components & set it up when you need it. I'm a fan of keeping a sponge filter at the ready in your sump , so that when you do set up your QT you can add that on. If you KNOW you are going to treat a fish for a known disease (such as ich), then forego the sponge as the treatment will kill the bacteria anyway. Frequent water changes are necessary to keep the water in a QT near perfection.
Since the intent of a QT tank is to observe a newly purchased fish, conditions ideally should match your display tank, so that there are no changes to the sg, ph,...when you move the fish to your DT and possibly cause a new stress.

But I digress...while I think what Dr's F & S are doing here is important and definitely a step in the right direction..IMO you still need to QT one of these fish when you receive it as you have no idea what temp changes (or other circumstances) might have happened during the shipping. At least you won't have to worry about internal parasites!

 

[JLAudio]

JL..I have to agree with Marrone one one point, your 2 x25% water changes aren't enough over the course of a week.
You mention setting up your QT again and possibly doing so in hypo..that isn't a good idea IMO. If you put a healthy fish in there you are stressing it yourself, no point in that as you could possibly bring on an illness that way.
I can't imagine that you would be attempting to put a fish other than a healthy one in there in your case (starting up again).

I am also NOT a fan of keeping a QT tank running all the time. I believe you should have all the components & set it up when you need it. I'm a fan of keeping a sponge filter at the ready in your sump , so that when you do set up your QT you can add that on. If you KNOW you are going to treat a fish for a known disease (such as ich), then forego the sponge as the treatment will kill the bacteria anyway. Frequent water changes
are necessary to keep the water in a QT near perfection.
Since the intent of a QT tank is to observe a newly purchased fish, conditions ideally should match your display tank, so that there are no changes to the sg, ph,...when you move the fish to your DT and possibly cause a new stress.

But I digress...while I think what Dr's F & S are doing here is important and definitely a step in the right direction..IMO you still need to QT one of these fish when you receive it as you have no idea what temp changes (or other circumstances) might have happened during the shipping. At least you won't have to worry about internal parasites!

Kathy thanks again, however Im truley convinced from my many attempts at QT's, regardless of constant water changes and airstones, this is not a stable enviornment for a fish and has much to be desired. Without a biological filter to control ammonia, nitrite etc. the paramaters could spike at any time and be no where near stable enought for fish coming from the ocean.

I desperately searching for an alternitive and truly feel ive killed more fish with an unstable QT than ever from disease.

Just my experience and loigc

 

[marrone]

There is a very easy solution to this. Go out and get a box of Nitrex. Add it to the hang on filter that you're running. This will covert over Ammonia and Nitrite to Nitrates.

 

[JLAudio]

Marrone, have you used this product before on a qt? This definitly sounds like something than could be beneficial for individuals attempting to use a qt especially with sensitive fish.

 

[JLAudio]

http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/quarantine_methodology_2.html

interesting article on pros and cons of different types of QT's

 

[marrone]

Marrone, have you used this product before on a qt? This definitly sounds like something than could be beneficial for individuals attempting to use a qt especially with sensitive fish.

Nitrex works very well and you can use it but you need to make sure you have good water breakage. You can't use it for corals.

 

[marrone]

http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/quarantine_methodology_2.html

interesting article on pros and cons of different types of QT's

I read it brief, I don't believe in treating fish with copper or other medication, especially when you don't know if they have something or not. You're only stressing out the fish more. I don't believe in some of the con's he listed, especially the stress part. Part of using a QT is giving a fish some down time, from being ripped out of the ocean and all the moving in between before it lands in your tank. If anything placing a fish directly into your display tank is very stressful. There is a lot of competition and fighting and then being able to find food and start eating. Using a QT gives the fish down time and lets it get use to being feed and the conditions around it.

 

[JLAudio]

I read it brief, I don't believe in treating fish with copper or other medication, especially when you don't know if they have something or not. You're only stressing out the fish more. I don't believe in some of the con's he listed, especially the stress part. Part of using a QT is giving a fish some down time, from being ripped out of the ocean and all the moving in between before it lands in your tank. If anything placing a fish directly into your display tank is very stressful. There is a lot of competition and fighting and then being able to find food and start eating. Using a QT gives the fish down time and lets it get use to being feed and the conditions around it.

Thank you so much for all the information, i greatly appreciate it,

I will make a few last redundent points and that is, that I feel QT's conceptually are great in many regards:
PROS
1. "Down time" to give them a chance to adapt to captivity before dealing with aggression and competition (marrone 2008)
2. Recognize disease, or illness, not exposing display tank (obvious one)
3. Able to medicate individual and not tank etc

CONS
1. Unstable!, If there is no biological filtration and you are merely controlling Ammonia, nitrite ph etc, through water changes, even if frequent and large there will constant fluctuations in water parameters, and I would imagine this is very stressful.
Quick thought: Would you trust putting an expensive angel fish in a display tank that isnt established but held together by frequent 50-100% w/c's, probably not, so why is this different?
2. Medication, Of course only after a symtoms surfaces, this will then kill bio-filter, so if your tank is self controlled (bio filtration) then you have to go back to manual control (WC's every day, or very frequent)
3.Unatural, although the lack of competition and agression will reduce stress, wont an extremly unnatural enviornment cause stress? no sand for wrasses, no rocks to graze for tangs, just pvc and glass, i think this may add to stress, no room to swim (even with the largest QT's what are they 50 gallons? for a large naso or angel thats like solitary confinement)

Just a few thougts, that I am always contemplating