A
Anonymous
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Here you go.
Wade closed out the course, so I figured it was best to just post it here.
01[17] <Grouper> A few people at stores really know their stuff of course, but they are few and far between
01[17] <Grouper> Finding a good store is everything, as a little hole in your knowledge about something can lead to a disasterous purchase...
[17] <calmingcreations> I have two stores in the area by me that I would consider local stores
01[17] <Grouper> if you'r prone to impulse buys.
01[17] <Grouper> We've all done it.
[17] <Newtoreef> yup
01[17] <Grouper> Good
01[17] <Grouper> I always quize them.
[17] <calmingcreations> I find that one knows his stuff and the other thinks he knows but it is evident to me that he doesn't care for the animals as my other store owner does
01[17] <Grouper> They hate that.
01[17] <Grouper> Find one without ego...good luck.
[17] <calmingcreations> to tell you Jim...the store I enjoy going to local for me he loves it when I just stand there and quiz him
[17] <Newtoreef> yes
[17] <calmingcreations> I think it has a lot to do with trust
01[17] <Grouper> Great, keep going to that guy.
[17] <Newtoreef> I hate the ones that act like they know but reall they know squat
01[17] <Grouper> exactly
01[17] <Grouper> Don't give them your money.
[17] <calmingcreations> I go to him for most of my livestock that I get local
01[17] <Grouper> Fish to stay away from...
[17] <calmingcreations> which are mainly my snails, hermits, fish and some corals
[17] <calmingcreations> JIm, what do you think about Bat Fish
01[17] <Grouper> Not a fan
[17] <Snoball> they grow tall
01[17] <Grouper> hard to feed, especially the black/orange guy
01[17] <Grouper> Hard to house with other fish too
[17] <calmingcreations> I have heard that some stores sell them, but I have told myself as a business owner myself that if a store is selling them that I would not purchase any from them
01[17] <Grouper> any livestock, or just no bat fish?
[17] <calmingcreations> any livestock b/c I feel if they are willing to jepordize a fish such as the bat fish where does it stop
01[17] <Grouper> OK...
[17] <calmingcreations> there are only a few in my area
01[17] <Grouper> Well then there are many other fish to add to that list
01[17] <Grouper> IF you see most of the following in your store, something is VERY wrong.
01[17] <Grouper> Parrot fish…all species.
[17] <calmingcreations> please tell
01[17] <Grouper> Obligate coral feeders...they DO NOT LIVE IN CAPTIVITY
01[17] <Grouper> EVER
01[17] <Grouper> Don't be afraid to yell at the store ownner about this one.
01[17] <Grouper> Moorish Idol
01[17] <Grouper> They don't eat
[17] <calmingcreations> oh yeah
01[17] <Grouper> Longnosed Filefish (Orange Spot Filefish, Beaked Leatherjacket)
01[17] <Grouper> Another obligate coral feeder, stay away from this fish.
01[17] <Grouper> Powder Blue Surgeonfish (A. leucosternon), Powder Brown – Japonicus.
01[17] <Grouper> Ship poorly, disease prone...should be left in the ocean.
01[17] <Grouper> Some, a few will do well
01[17] <Grouper> Out of THOUSANDS that come in every month.
01[17] <Grouper> Not quite in the same category as Parrot fish, but still a poor choice.
01[17] <Grouper> Hippo Tangs, same thing, although I’d rate them far above the two above species, they are certainly a more advanced fish. The best bet really is to steer clear of them altogether IMO.
01[17] <Grouper> By two above species, I mean the tangs.
01[17] <Grouper> Far more individiuals of this species will adapt than the Powder Blue
01[17] <Grouper> But that's not saying a whole lot.
01[17] <Grouper> At the very least, it's an advanced fish...and not for cleints.
01[17] <Grouper> you don't want to be a remote baby sitter for this fish.
01[17] <Grouper> Same thing for lots of fish actually, keep that in mind when stocking a customer tank.
01[17] <Grouper> hardy fish only.
01[17] <Grouper> Leopard Blenny
01[17] <Grouper> They don't eat
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah...that reminds me is there a list of fish you would suggest for clients as an aquarium service company
01[17] <Grouper> Cleaner Wrasses - same.
[17] <calmingcreations> or is the list shorter for fish to avoid
01[17] <Grouper> Sure CC, I mean I could definitely write one up
[17] <calmingcreations> that would be a big help
01[17] <Grouper> The list of fish to avoid is HUGE really.
[17] <calmingcreations> thanks
01[17] <Grouper> Better stick with recommended fish, I'll help you with that.
01[17] <Grouper> Tamarin wrasses…multiple species of the genus Anampses. Very attractive little critters, but they ship poorly and don’t eat well
[17] <calmingcreations> that brings up another point that I am often asked how is one to choose a fish for beginners
01[17] <Grouper> Let's hit on that in a second.
[17] <calmingcreations> np
01[17] <Grouper> Remind me if I rattle on too long.
[17] <calmingcreations> np I will
01[17] <Grouper> Many anthias, some because they don’t ship well, others don’t like intense reef lighting
01[17] <Grouper> Some species do fine, just do your research first. I’ve never been much of an anthias guy myself...
01[17] <Grouper> but Scott Micheal has some good info here http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/s_ ... 30401.html if you’re in the market for some useful info on these fish
01[17] <Grouper> I'm not a fan, but that's just me.
01[17] <Grouper> Angelfish...hoo boy.
[17] <Snoball> scott has a bunch of books out on fish
01[17] <Grouper> Yep
01[17] <Grouper> Good sources, I don't have them yet.
01[17] <Grouper> He does good work though.
01[17] <Grouper> Regal Angel, Rock Beauty Angel, Queen Angel, Annularis Angel, Majestic Angel, Flagfish Angel
01[17] <Grouper> For the most part, stay away from these guys.
01[17] <Grouper> The Queen, just because it get's HUGE
01[17] <Grouper> You need a 400 gallon tank long term, and they are quite aggressive when mature.
01[17] <Grouper> 300 gallon I mean.
01[17] <Grouper> although 400 wouldn't hurt.
01[17] <Grouper> if you want to try your hand at these fish, the Passer, Koran or Maculosus IF YOU HAVE THE SPACE
01[17] <Grouper> Good places to start, but keep aggression in mind.
01[17] <Grouper> Angels are a tough group to give advice on, keep in mind I'm generalizing.
01[17] <Grouper> For instance...
01[17] <Grouper> Many Imperators will do great
[17] <calmingcreations> when we get a break Jim I have a question regarding the recommended gallon size for any species not specific
01[17] <Grouper> Others will wither...selection is key here, as well as husbandry practicex.
01[17] <Grouper> shoot.
[17] <calmingcreations> with those suggestions such as what you just mentioned for the Queen Angel of 300 gallons, how is one to be able to determine how many other fish should be included in the tank
01[17] <Grouper> That's entirely dependent on the types of fish, their size, how aggressive they are, etc...
[17] <calmingcreations> now, I know that it has a great deal to do with filteration
01[17] <Grouper> right
01[17] <Grouper> That is one aspect
[17] <calmingcreations> ok, so lets go with something smaller
01[17] <Grouper> an important one obviusly...
[17] <calmingcreations> such as the clownfish
01[17] <Grouper> Im not sure I understand the question, a clownfish in a 300?
[17] <calmingcreations> most are recommended at 20 gallons at min.
01[17] <Grouper> OK
[17] <calmingcreations> most of the time it is a 30 gallon
01[17] <Grouper> Let's take that 20 gallon tank, and say a pair of occelaris.
[17] <calmingcreations> ok... is that what the limit would be
01[17] <Grouper> Nope
01[17] <Grouper> IN that tank...
[17] <calmingcreations> or would you be able to more to that tank
01[17] <Grouper> you could easily put say a P. fridmani...
01[17] <Grouper> ...but I would stop there.
[17] <calmingcreations> I have a lot of prospective clients that think saltwater is like keeping freshwater where you can cheat a lot more
01[17] <Grouper> You don't wnat to max things out
01[17] <Grouper> A BAD idea, especially when you're not there monitering the tank every day.
[17] <calmingcreations> and the old saying for size of fish per so many gallons just doesn't work for salt
01[17] <Grouper> Not across the board, no
01[17] <Grouper> But then it doesn't really work that way for freshwater either.
01[17] <Grouper> When dealing with territorial cichlids for instance.
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah then it definitely doesn't work
01[17] <Grouper> A 20 gallon can easily support 4 small fish.
[17] <calmingcreations> ok keep it at 3 fish
01[17] <Grouper> A single aggressive Tomatoe clown though, and that's it.
01[17] <Grouper> Lots of variables.
[17] <calmingcreations> so agression makes a great deal
01[17] <Grouper> A small Argi angel, one of my favorite fish, may not tolerate ANY other fish in there.
[17] <calmingcreations> one of my original ideas was to create a list of fish that could go into a tank that the client could pick from
[17] <BCinYa> I had a Tomato clown take a chunk out of my hand on Friday.
01[17] <Grouper> While larger, more sedentary fish, while technically too big, might do just fine...like an Angler fish.
[17] <BCinYa> I hate that fish
[17] <Newtoreef> lol
01[17] <Grouper> heh
01[17] <Grouper> they do that.
01[17] <Grouper> Mine used to bite me all the time too.
01[17] <Grouper> I had a pair in a Bubble anemone.
[17] <Newtoreef> my marron has been eyeing my hand at times as well hahaha
[17] <Newtoreef> maroon clown
01[17] <Grouper> Sharks...
[17] <calmingcreations> JIm...also do you know of a trading site that if you have a fish you no longer find sortable for your tank that you could trade or sell even just give away if the buyer would pay for shipping
01[17] <Grouper> no unfortunately.
[17] <Newtoreef> where you located?
01[17] <Grouper> That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
[17] <BCinYa> http://www.aquabid.com/
01[17] <Grouper> Not to my knowledge though.
01[17] <Grouper> There ya go.
[17] <BCinYa> like ebay for fish
01[17] <Grouper> Great
[17] <calmingcreations> thanks BCinYa
01[17] <Grouper> I'll have to check that place out.
01[17] <Grouper> Good stuff
01[17] <Grouper> Stay away from sharks...
[17] <calmingcreations> Newtoreef was that question *Where you located?* for me
01[17] <Grouper> Unless you're will to give them the space they need.
[17] <Newtoreef> yes.. Sorry
[17] <Newtoreef> Maybe look for some local clubs
[17] <calmingcreations> no a problem, in Northeastern Pennsylvania
[17] <Newtoreef> i se
01[17] <Grouper> A few sharks do OK though
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah I have a local club just thinking that might be something for to look into
[17] <Newtoreef> my friend has reef shark he hatched!! just loved the think
[17] <calmingcreations> Jim, sharks?? in reef or just fish only
01[17] <Grouper> Fish only...
01[17] <Grouper> A few species do fine if given the space...
[17] <Newtoreef> he has it in a reef tank..
01[17] <Grouper> The mottled cat shark from Australia for one.
01[17] <Grouper> Not a good idea John
[17] <Newtoreef> but thats obviouslty a temp situation
01[17] <Grouper> CAt sharks appear sedentary in the day
01[17] <Grouper> But they swim about a lot at night looking for food.
[17] <Snoball> CC..there's alarge club in Pittsburgh
01[17] <Grouper> They need free swimming space.
01[17] <Grouper> 200 gallons plus..mostly sand.
[17] <Newtoreef> yes hes gota large 280 hes gonna setup as folr
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah...I know many of the members, but Pitts about 5-6 hours from me
01[17] <Grouper> I've had Cat sharks and even a little Horn Shark in the past.
[17] <calmingcreations> Snoball you in Pittsburg
[17] <Snoball> I went to the convention last year
[17] <calmingcreations> Jim...those sharks what size tank do you need
01[17] <Grouper> 200 gallons plus for the smaller species.
[17] <calmingcreations> Snoball...I was there for a few hours on Saturday
01[17] <Grouper> They are quite hardy actually.
[17] <calmingcreations> k, are they a fish that needs to be kept alone
01[17] <Grouper> Not necessarily...
01[17] <Grouper> ...but you don't want fish like a Clown Trigger in there that will attempt to sample it.
01[17] <Grouper> Or smaller fish that it can eat.
01[17] <Grouper> You also need fish that will do well in that type of setup...very little or no rock.
01[17] <Grouper> Some structure on the center of a very deep (wide) tank works well.
01[17] <Grouper> More or less though, they should be avoided by most aquarists.
01[17] <Grouper> We already discussed Mandarin fishes.
01[17] <Grouper> Triggers....
01[17] <Grouper> No Queens...please
01[17] <Grouper> Do yourself a favor.
01[17] <Grouper> Don't be tempted by this fish
01[17] <Grouper> Unless again, you're willing to give it a 300 gallon tank of it's own.
01[17] <Grouper> I think we talked about B. undulatus.
01[18] <Grouper> The Clown Trigger is almost in the same boat...
01[18] <Grouper> ...but can make due with smaller quarters when adult..but will almost surely end up alone.
01[18] <Grouper> Keep in mind it's still a large fish, and will need a 200 gallon tank at least.
01[18] <Grouper> They also need a varied diet to maintain color.
01[18] <Grouper> Damselfishes...be carefull CC when stocking someones tank with these.
01[18] <Grouper> I love the little Dascyllus
01[18] <Grouper> But they are trouble when they get big...heartbreakers really
01[18] <Grouper> I love a group of them swimming around, but that doesn't last.
01[18] <Grouper> OK, CC had a question about beginners fish.
01[18] <Grouper> What was that question specifically?
01[18] <Grouper> You awake Ray?
01[18] <Grouper>
[18] <calmingcreations> I have several beginning reef and fish only aquarists who ask me about beginning fish
[18] <Snoball> yup
[18] <calmingcreations> I have been told that keeping a harder fish would be best for beginners as it is more forgiving
[18] <calmingcreations> also...many of the aquarist I know are looking at nano reefs no more than 30 gallons
01[18] <Grouper> You want fish that are hardy, but not extremely aggessive...
01[18] <Grouper> ...some clowns, dottybacks, firefish and basslets fit this well.
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah...my fisrt fish was a yellow tail damsel that was in a 2.5 gallon tank
01[18] <Grouper> Most dottyback are very aggressive actually, but P. fridmani is excellent.
01[18] <Grouper> On the RDO website, you'll see a nano forum...
01[18] <Grouper> There, matt has crated a list of nano fish...it's a very good refernce.
01[18] <Grouper> Neon goby's are great little fish.
01[18] <Grouper> Angels of the argi complex do very well in small tanks, I had one in a 7 gallon for a while.
01[18] <Grouper> I don't recommend that long term, but he was quite happy in there for a few months.
[18] <calmingcreations> ok...I think that the biggest problem I have is with people wanting to keep so many fish in such a small area
01[18] <Grouper> 20 gallons is good long term for those guys.
01[18] <Grouper> Dwarg groupers are another favorite
01[18] <Grouper> Serranus tigrinis, S.tortugarum...
01[18] <Grouper> Awesome nano fish.
[18] <calmingcreations> grouper in a nano
[18] <calmingcreations> ?
01[18] <Grouper> Yep
01[18] <Grouper> DWARF grouper
01[18] <Grouper> These guys only get a few inches
[18] <calmingcreations> what is there growth size range
[18] <calmingcreations> wow I love the look of groupers
[18] <calmingcreations> I'll have to check some of those out
01[18] <Grouper> 3-7"...but you won't see them get that big usually.
[18] <calmingcreations> cool
01[18] <Grouper> S. tortugarum is the best one I think for little tanks..
01[18] <Grouper> and you can keep several.
01[18] <Grouper> There
01[18] <Grouper> more than this actually, check that forum out.
[18] <calmingcreations> isn't that unusual for that species
[18] <calmingcreations> I will look into that
01[18] <Grouper> Banggai is another excellent nano fish.
01[18] <Grouper> cardinal that is
01[18] <Grouper> A great little fish.
[18] <Snoball> u don't see bengaiis as much anymore
01[18] <Grouper> Do not put Sixline wrasses in nano tanks.
[18] <calmingcreations> I do have several questions about water chemistry, but more on where I can get more education on it either in online courses or reading
01[18] <Grouper> or Four Lines, or any of those guys.
[18] <BCinYa> MACO has a water chem course
01[18] <Grouper> I'm good at maintaining my own chemisty, but not a good person to ask about that subject.
[18] <BCinYa> although none scheduled soon
01[18] <Grouper> Maybe later in the summer
[18] <calmingcreations> I'll keep my eyes peeled
[18] <calmingcreations> I saw a book from TLF that came out last year
01[18] <Grouper> Anything else you guys would like to discuss? Let's open it up.
[18] <Snoball> cowfish?
01[18] <Grouper> cute little guys, love those things when small
[18] <Newtoreef> not reef safe though right?
01[18] <Grouper> Hard to mix with other fish though, and they release toxins
01[18] <Grouper> not reef safe.
01[18] <Grouper> would be an intersting species tank.
01[18] <Grouper> All it takes is a fish harrasing it though...
01[18] <Grouper> ...and that might be all it takes
01[18] <Grouper> Toxin city.
01[18] <Grouper> Neat animals though.
[18] <Snoball> what kind of toxins
[18] <Newtoreef> I have a small 6 line in my 29 2.5'-3" how long before you think I should me him to my 140?
[18] <Newtoreef> move him
01[18] <Grouper> Not sure
01[18] <Grouper> ostracitoxin maybe
01[18] <Grouper> I might have that wrong
[18] <Newtoreef> seeems to be doing ok in the cube for now
01[18] <Grouper> Same thing with some box fish
01[18] <Grouper> from what i"ve seen, the cowfishes are hardy enough
01[18] <Grouper> By the way, regarding toxins
[18] <calmingcreations> what do you think of a cold water salt reef tank
01[18] <Grouper> Soapfishes can do the same thing, but I've never had issues with them.
01[18] <Grouper> I'm going to do a coldwater tidepool setup one of these days, but the main issues are...
01[18] <Grouper> ...power bill..chillers are expensive to buy, and expensive to run..
01[18] <Grouper> ...and getting the correct critters.
01[18] <Grouper> However, I look forward to doing this at some point...not reef though..tidepool biotope.
01[18] <Grouper> power will be more of an issue...
01[18] <Grouper> ...if you live in a hot climate.
01[18] <Grouper> It's more feasable for me now than when I lived in Cali
01[18] <Grouper> In cali the damn chiller would be on all the time.
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah...I'm interested in a reef if I do one I would keep it in the basement where it doesn't get above 60 degrees
[18] <calmingcreations> with solid limestone
[18] <Newtoreef> what type critters wuold you keep?
01[18] <Grouper> Great...lots of critters to choose from, but best live in an area where you can collect them...legally.
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah that can be a problem
[18] <calmingcreations> thats what I have heard
01[18] <Grouper> Skulpins, urchins, chitons, limpets, stars, snails, hermit crabs, anemones
01[18] <Grouper> rockfish
[18] <calmingcreations> just read an article in one of the magazines
[18] <Newtoreef> will do
01[18] <Grouper> good project...can
[18] <BCinYa> cc, if you ever get this together, I'll just walk down to the shore and pick up some stuff for you and ship them to ya
01[18] <Grouper> 'can't wiait to do it myself.
01[18] <Grouper> Yeah, I'd stick with the intertidal oganisms.
[18] <calmingcreations> thanks bc i'll keep that in mind
01[18] <Grouper> They are more tolerant of swings
01[18] <Grouper> Some intersting fish can be found there too.
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim...are there any cold water corals
01[18] <Grouper> Yes.
01[18] <Grouper> But I'm not very knowleadgeble on them.
01[18] <Grouper> There are some very beautiful freshwater coralamorphians.
[18] <calmingcreations> are they colorful or just your brown, tan, white
01[18] <Grouper> Hot pink
01[18] <Grouper> and other colors.
[18] <calmingcreations> nice
01[18] <Grouper> I haven't seen them in the intertidal though.
[18] <calmingcreations> k
01[18] <Grouper> Monteray Bay Aquarium has a nice display of them.
01[18] <Grouper> I have seen nice coraline, macros.
[18] <calmingcreations> I know that many of you have mentioned that you are thinking or already starting tanks
[18] <calmingcreations> that would be cool
[18] <calmingcreations> I have a supplier who offers great deals on tanks
01[18] <Grouper> The coldwater snails will not ship well.
[18] <calmingcreations> so if anyone is looking to purchase just let me know
01[18] <Grouper> Shore crags are tough as nails though, I'v kept them in tropical tanks.
01[18] <Grouper> crabs.
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim...is that because they get too warm
01[18] <Grouper> Yep, maybe sensetive to oxygen depletion as well.
01[18] <Grouper> They are both related
[18] <calmingcreations> do you have any recommendations on lighting requirements for fish only tanks
01[18] <Grouper> Anything will do, unless you're talking about fish that need lower light setups, like some antias for instance.
[18] <calmingcreations> I'm not a fan of the old watts per gallon equations
01[18] <Grouper> Aside from that, it doesn't matter.
01[18] <Grouper> Well that doesn't work for reef tanks, and is totally irrelevant for fish.
[18] <calmingcreations> so it has more to do with algae
01[18] <Grouper> Right, the fish don't care with the exceptions mentioned above.
01[18] <Grouper> The stock light fixture is fine for FO.
[18] <calmingcreations> cool that's helpful thanks
[18] <Newtoreef> what do you do for a fish only tank regarding alge?
01[18] <Grouper> Well, unless you're keeping puffers or triggers...
01[18] <Grouper> ...no reason why you can't have snails in there, just don't medicate.
[18] <Newtoreef> and when u want to keep triggers?
01[18] <Grouper> Magnets, or wiping by hand...which is always necessary to an extent anyway, even with snails.
[18] <Newtoreef> true
01[18] <Grouper> Water changes help
01[18] <Grouper> you need to keep the organics diluted of course.
[18] <BCinYa> to keep algae at bay you can also just keep the light level and phosphates low
[18] <calmingcreations> oh is there a suggestion you would have on fish only tanks for fish only
01[18] <Grouper> As far as fish?
01[18] <Grouper>
[18] <calmingcreations> yes would a canister filter be best
01[18] <Grouper> Live rock and a skimmer is still the way to go in my opinion.
01[18] <Grouper> Canisters are a great suppliment though...
01[18] <Grouper> ...for messy fish like triggers and groupers.
01[18] <Grouper> Almost a requirement.
[18] <Newtoreef> have you heard of right now?
01[18] <Grouper> and/or heavy water changes.
[18] <calmingcreations> do you have any suggestions on skimmers
01[18] <Grouper> Forget the OR in that.
01[18] <Grouper> I haven't used them all, but my Euroreef served me well.
01[18] <Grouper> CS-2 was what I had on my in-wall 150
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah Euroreef is a top of the line skimmer that is great
01[18] <Grouper> But I'm not necessarily current on what's out there at the moment.
01[18] <Grouper> I'll say this again, keep this in mind with messy fish...
01[18] <Grouper> Your filters are there as a stop-gap measure between water changes.
[18] <Newtoreef> I picked upa lifereef skimmer
01[18] <Grouper> Think of water changes are your primary tool for keeping organics in check.
[18] <Newtoreef> euroreef was my second choice
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim your thoughts on seahorses?
[18] <calmingcreations> good or bad should be kept in ocean
01[18] <Grouper> They do just fine if you give them what they need, little flow, no other tankmates, etc.
01[18] <Grouper> I've never bothered with them myself.
01[18] <Grouper> Not a good idea for the client though IMO.
[18] <BCinYa> does anyone know of a good website to help ID’ing different types of corals?
01[18] <Grouper> Just as a generalization.
[18] <Newtoreef> I was thinking of puting a few inmy 55 gal fuge.. Will they decimate my pods?
01[18] <Grouper> Do you have Bornemans book?
[18] <Newtoreef> seahourses I mean
[18] <calmingcreations> you mean Eric Bornemans
01[18] <Grouper> Yep
01[18] <Grouper> They won't decimate your pods
[18] <calmingcreations> he has great books
01[18] <Grouper> They don't move around fast enough to decimate anything.
[18] <Newtoreef> lol ok
[18] <calmingcreations> what are you looking for as corals, BC?
01[18] <Grouper> A good idea for a semi-FO. Live rock, whatever fish you want, and mushroom corals.
01[18] <Grouper> You don't need much light either, and you don't have to mess with Alk too much.
[18] <BCinYa> I have collected a few small frags over the last month or so and I can't get a specific ID on them where I've looked
[18] <Snoball> page called: coralsearch search page
01[18] <Grouper> SPS?
[18] <calmingcreations> do you have pics
01[18] <Grouper> Sometimes you get abberant growth forms with captive stuff, which makes them even hard to identify.
[18] <calmingcreations> I have a club that I am a member of that loves to identify, you can check them out at mountainvalleyreef.com
[18] <BCinYa> no pics as yet, it's on my list of things to do.
[18] <BCinYa> They a are mostly polyps and 'shrooms but I'm wondering what type.
01[18] <Grouper> Ahh...
01[18] <Grouper> There's a zillion different polyps...some of my favorite corals.
[18] <BCinYa> I have a friend at a store who just gives me the small frags that have broken off in the coral display tank
[18] <calmingcreations> check out this site...coralidea.com the gentleman who created this site will be at Macna in Atlanta this year
01[18] <Grouper> Add green stary polyps to my semi-FO comment above.,
01[18] <Grouper> Star polyps that is.
[18] <BCinYa> coralidea.com... that sounds about right!!
01[18] <Grouper> Since we're getting near the end...I need to ask...Is there anything you guys would change about this class.
01[18] <Grouper> Let me have it.
[18] <calmingcreations> there are quite a bit of 'shrooms who have not been identified
01[18] <Grouper> You guys were the first group
01[18] <Grouper> yep
[18] <BCinYa> 1 sec
01[18] <Grouper> Would you like to see the structure change in any way, etc
[18] <calmingcreations> well...I would suggestion holding it earlier, but that would be based on attendence
[18] <Newtoreef> if you are gong to change times or anything imporatant in the future after class has started be sure to send out an email.
[18] <Snoball> it's a full class now!
[18] <calmingcreations> I would also like to see it be a bit longer in length
[18] <Newtoreef> people dont always have time to check the forum
[18] <Snoball> more ppaperwork on fish compatability, stocking etc.
01[18] <Grouper> OK, so more written materials.
01[18] <Grouper> That was a balance that I've been struggling with a bit.
01[18] <Grouper> How much to write down, how much to cover in chat.
[18] <Snoball> yout photo's in your articles were great, didi you take them?
[18] <calmingcreations> an idea, but would take more time to create a work book style
[18] <BCinYa> I think the course content / subject matter was really good. The taxonomy stuff almost put me into a coma though!! It was good, just not my bag.
[18] <BCinYa> Not that you have any control over this but the text chat was slloooowww. I’ve been emailing Wade about different (more interactive & streamlined) options.
01[18] <Grouper> No, I got permission from different people to use their photos.
[18] <Snoball> my typing is stuttering tonite
[18] <BCinYa> I liked the articles
01[18] <Grouper> Thanks
01[18] <Grouper> Terry's articles are a great resource...which reminds me, I found some of his work that I couldn't locate before.
[18] <Newtoreef> maybe a video streamed face to face would be alot faster
[18] <Newtoreef> not so good for peep with out bradband
01[18] <Grouper> Yeah, then I have to perform too.
[18] <Snoball> get some mermaids in the class
[18] <Newtoreef> lol
01[18] <Grouper> there you go
01[18] <Grouper> I would need a theme song too.
01[18] <Grouper> And an Ed McMahon equivelnt.
[18] <Snoball> lol
01[18] <Grouper> About the written materials thing, I was struggling with writing too much down, then not having enough to fill the chat left over...but if there were say 8 poeple here, then I wouldn't have time to cover much if everyone was asking questions...so it's a tough balance to strike.
[18] <Newtoreef> bc are you going to go to that reef newwork dinner?
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim...I had a bit trouble with the reading but that has to do with my learning style and reading disability it would have been more helpful if the reading material could have been supplied in the beginning when you sign up so I could read it when I had time and not be stressed as I was more dependant on the chats
01[18] <Grouper> I think I can change it up a bit though.
01[18] <Grouper> We've had enough to talk about, so I think I can write more down and feel comfortable.
01[18] <Grouper> Good idea Joseph.
01[18] <Grouper> What about quizzes...don't bother?
01[18] <Grouper> That seems to have been the concesus I guess...LOL
[18] <Snoball> nah
[19] <BCinYa> the first (only) quiz was toooo hard
01[19] <Grouper> I think I'll compress the biology stuff a bit.
01[19] <Grouper> OK
[19] <calmingcreations> if you are unsure if you will be coving the material in chat or need more time for questions you could prepare it for the more question time, but then could just cut things out if you need more to chat about
01[19] <Grouper> I was trying to make sure I had a clear winner at the end hehe
[19] <Snoball> scott's books would be a good reference..but he has several volumes out now
01[19] <Grouper> Yeah I thought about a textbook of sorts.
[19] <calmingcreations> I personally would have been willing and expected to invest in reference books
[19] <BCinYa> actually, that'd be a good idea! get everyone to order the same book(s) and use them as texts / outline for the course. if there is a book that is appropriate.
[19] <Snoball> if there was one book that you could reccomend on fish Jim, what would it be?
01[19] <Grouper> If it was just ONE, then I'd say Scott's little Marine Fish expert guide.
01[19] <Grouper> A good little cross section there.
01[19] <Grouper> Second, I'm guessing would be his more comprehensive books that he's relased after that, but I haven't looked at them frankly.
[19] <calmingcreations> Jim will you be at the Macna in Atlanta?
01[19] <Grouper> Scott and I agree for the most part of the hardiness, etc of different fish.
01[19] <Grouper> Although not on tank sizes
01[19] <Grouper> I'm too strapped to make it to Macan...to much on my plate right now.
01[19] <Grouper> Macna
01[19] <Grouper> Maybe next time
01[19] <Grouper> I have to get this dang book finished
[19] <calmingcreations> not a problem would just like to make you sometime
01[19] <Grouper> Me too Joseph
[19] <Snoball> what book
01[19] <Grouper> I'm also supposedly a professional illustrator...so I should be drawing stuff...
01[19] <Grouper> ...I need more hours in the day
[19] <calmingcreations> don't we all
01[19] <Grouper> I think that PHoto class is a great idea Chris.
[19] <calmingcreations> yeah I like the idea of the photo class it didn't mention the teacher do you know who it is?
01[19] <Grouper> I remember trying to take pictures of my Mbuna tank, but they'd all just crowd in front of the camera.
[19] <BCinYa> me
[19] <calmingcreations> BC your the teacher
01[19] <Grouper> He will be
[19] <BCinYa> 1 sec
[19] <calmingcreations> cool...
01[19] <Grouper> BCinYa darkroom
[19] <calmingcreations> Jim...I have several ideas for my aquarium service company and would like to have a discussion with you
01[19] <Grouper> OK
[19] <calmingcreations> I know that you are very busy
[19] <Newtoreef> Well wifey siting there brow beating me with dinner ready guys I gotta go
01[19] <Grouper> NP, I can serve you better over email though.
01[19] <Grouper> See ya, thanks for coming@!
[19] <Newtoreef> its been fun
[19] <calmingcreations> and my schedule has been 14 hour days for the week and caughting up on sleep on the weekend
[19] <Snoball> cya
[19] <Newtoreef> ok bye aLL
Wade closed out the course, so I figured it was best to just post it here.
01[17] <Grouper> A few people at stores really know their stuff of course, but they are few and far between
01[17] <Grouper> Finding a good store is everything, as a little hole in your knowledge about something can lead to a disasterous purchase...
[17] <calmingcreations> I have two stores in the area by me that I would consider local stores
01[17] <Grouper> if you'r prone to impulse buys.
01[17] <Grouper> We've all done it.
[17] <Newtoreef> yup
01[17] <Grouper> Good
01[17] <Grouper> I always quize them.
[17] <calmingcreations> I find that one knows his stuff and the other thinks he knows but it is evident to me that he doesn't care for the animals as my other store owner does
01[17] <Grouper> They hate that.
01[17] <Grouper> Find one without ego...good luck.
[17] <calmingcreations> to tell you Jim...the store I enjoy going to local for me he loves it when I just stand there and quiz him
[17] <Newtoreef> yes
[17] <calmingcreations> I think it has a lot to do with trust
01[17] <Grouper> Great, keep going to that guy.
[17] <Newtoreef> I hate the ones that act like they know but reall they know squat
01[17] <Grouper> exactly
01[17] <Grouper> Don't give them your money.
[17] <calmingcreations> I go to him for most of my livestock that I get local
01[17] <Grouper> Fish to stay away from...
[17] <calmingcreations> which are mainly my snails, hermits, fish and some corals
[17] <calmingcreations> JIm, what do you think about Bat Fish
01[17] <Grouper> Not a fan
[17] <Snoball> they grow tall
01[17] <Grouper> hard to feed, especially the black/orange guy
01[17] <Grouper> Hard to house with other fish too
[17] <calmingcreations> I have heard that some stores sell them, but I have told myself as a business owner myself that if a store is selling them that I would not purchase any from them
01[17] <Grouper> any livestock, or just no bat fish?
[17] <calmingcreations> any livestock b/c I feel if they are willing to jepordize a fish such as the bat fish where does it stop
01[17] <Grouper> OK...
[17] <calmingcreations> there are only a few in my area
01[17] <Grouper> Well then there are many other fish to add to that list
01[17] <Grouper> IF you see most of the following in your store, something is VERY wrong.
01[17] <Grouper> Parrot fish…all species.
[17] <calmingcreations> please tell
01[17] <Grouper> Obligate coral feeders...they DO NOT LIVE IN CAPTIVITY
01[17] <Grouper> EVER
01[17] <Grouper> Don't be afraid to yell at the store ownner about this one.
01[17] <Grouper> Moorish Idol
01[17] <Grouper> They don't eat
[17] <calmingcreations> oh yeah
01[17] <Grouper> Longnosed Filefish (Orange Spot Filefish, Beaked Leatherjacket)
01[17] <Grouper> Another obligate coral feeder, stay away from this fish.
01[17] <Grouper> Powder Blue Surgeonfish (A. leucosternon), Powder Brown – Japonicus.
01[17] <Grouper> Ship poorly, disease prone...should be left in the ocean.
01[17] <Grouper> Some, a few will do well
01[17] <Grouper> Out of THOUSANDS that come in every month.
01[17] <Grouper> Not quite in the same category as Parrot fish, but still a poor choice.
01[17] <Grouper> Hippo Tangs, same thing, although I’d rate them far above the two above species, they are certainly a more advanced fish. The best bet really is to steer clear of them altogether IMO.
01[17] <Grouper> By two above species, I mean the tangs.
01[17] <Grouper> Far more individiuals of this species will adapt than the Powder Blue
01[17] <Grouper> But that's not saying a whole lot.
01[17] <Grouper> At the very least, it's an advanced fish...and not for cleints.
01[17] <Grouper> you don't want to be a remote baby sitter for this fish.
01[17] <Grouper> Same thing for lots of fish actually, keep that in mind when stocking a customer tank.
01[17] <Grouper> hardy fish only.
01[17] <Grouper> Leopard Blenny
01[17] <Grouper> They don't eat
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah...that reminds me is there a list of fish you would suggest for clients as an aquarium service company
01[17] <Grouper> Cleaner Wrasses - same.
[17] <calmingcreations> or is the list shorter for fish to avoid
01[17] <Grouper> Sure CC, I mean I could definitely write one up
[17] <calmingcreations> that would be a big help
01[17] <Grouper> The list of fish to avoid is HUGE really.
[17] <calmingcreations> thanks
01[17] <Grouper> Better stick with recommended fish, I'll help you with that.
01[17] <Grouper> Tamarin wrasses…multiple species of the genus Anampses. Very attractive little critters, but they ship poorly and don’t eat well
[17] <calmingcreations> that brings up another point that I am often asked how is one to choose a fish for beginners
01[17] <Grouper> Let's hit on that in a second.
[17] <calmingcreations> np
01[17] <Grouper> Remind me if I rattle on too long.
[17] <calmingcreations> np I will
01[17] <Grouper> Many anthias, some because they don’t ship well, others don’t like intense reef lighting
01[17] <Grouper> Some species do fine, just do your research first. I’ve never been much of an anthias guy myself...
01[17] <Grouper> but Scott Micheal has some good info here http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/s_ ... 30401.html if you’re in the market for some useful info on these fish
01[17] <Grouper> I'm not a fan, but that's just me.
01[17] <Grouper> Angelfish...hoo boy.
[17] <Snoball> scott has a bunch of books out on fish
01[17] <Grouper> Yep
01[17] <Grouper> Good sources, I don't have them yet.
01[17] <Grouper> He does good work though.
01[17] <Grouper> Regal Angel, Rock Beauty Angel, Queen Angel, Annularis Angel, Majestic Angel, Flagfish Angel
01[17] <Grouper> For the most part, stay away from these guys.
01[17] <Grouper> The Queen, just because it get's HUGE
01[17] <Grouper> You need a 400 gallon tank long term, and they are quite aggressive when mature.
01[17] <Grouper> 300 gallon I mean.
01[17] <Grouper> although 400 wouldn't hurt.
01[17] <Grouper> if you want to try your hand at these fish, the Passer, Koran or Maculosus IF YOU HAVE THE SPACE
01[17] <Grouper> Good places to start, but keep aggression in mind.
01[17] <Grouper> Angels are a tough group to give advice on, keep in mind I'm generalizing.
01[17] <Grouper> For instance...
01[17] <Grouper> Many Imperators will do great
[17] <calmingcreations> when we get a break Jim I have a question regarding the recommended gallon size for any species not specific
01[17] <Grouper> Others will wither...selection is key here, as well as husbandry practicex.
01[17] <Grouper> shoot.
[17] <calmingcreations> with those suggestions such as what you just mentioned for the Queen Angel of 300 gallons, how is one to be able to determine how many other fish should be included in the tank
01[17] <Grouper> That's entirely dependent on the types of fish, their size, how aggressive they are, etc...
[17] <calmingcreations> now, I know that it has a great deal to do with filteration
01[17] <Grouper> right
01[17] <Grouper> That is one aspect
[17] <calmingcreations> ok, so lets go with something smaller
01[17] <Grouper> an important one obviusly...
[17] <calmingcreations> such as the clownfish
01[17] <Grouper> Im not sure I understand the question, a clownfish in a 300?
[17] <calmingcreations> most are recommended at 20 gallons at min.
01[17] <Grouper> OK
[17] <calmingcreations> most of the time it is a 30 gallon
01[17] <Grouper> Let's take that 20 gallon tank, and say a pair of occelaris.
[17] <calmingcreations> ok... is that what the limit would be
01[17] <Grouper> Nope
01[17] <Grouper> IN that tank...
[17] <calmingcreations> or would you be able to more to that tank
01[17] <Grouper> you could easily put say a P. fridmani...
01[17] <Grouper> ...but I would stop there.
[17] <calmingcreations> I have a lot of prospective clients that think saltwater is like keeping freshwater where you can cheat a lot more
01[17] <Grouper> You don't wnat to max things out
01[17] <Grouper> A BAD idea, especially when you're not there monitering the tank every day.
[17] <calmingcreations> and the old saying for size of fish per so many gallons just doesn't work for salt
01[17] <Grouper> Not across the board, no
01[17] <Grouper> But then it doesn't really work that way for freshwater either.
01[17] <Grouper> When dealing with territorial cichlids for instance.
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah then it definitely doesn't work
01[17] <Grouper> A 20 gallon can easily support 4 small fish.
[17] <calmingcreations> ok keep it at 3 fish
01[17] <Grouper> A single aggressive Tomatoe clown though, and that's it.
01[17] <Grouper> Lots of variables.
[17] <calmingcreations> so agression makes a great deal
01[17] <Grouper> A small Argi angel, one of my favorite fish, may not tolerate ANY other fish in there.
[17] <calmingcreations> one of my original ideas was to create a list of fish that could go into a tank that the client could pick from
[17] <BCinYa> I had a Tomato clown take a chunk out of my hand on Friday.
01[17] <Grouper> While larger, more sedentary fish, while technically too big, might do just fine...like an Angler fish.
[17] <BCinYa> I hate that fish
[17] <Newtoreef> lol
01[17] <Grouper> heh
01[17] <Grouper> they do that.
01[17] <Grouper> Mine used to bite me all the time too.
01[17] <Grouper> I had a pair in a Bubble anemone.
[17] <Newtoreef> my marron has been eyeing my hand at times as well hahaha
[17] <Newtoreef> maroon clown
01[17] <Grouper> Sharks...
[17] <calmingcreations> JIm...also do you know of a trading site that if you have a fish you no longer find sortable for your tank that you could trade or sell even just give away if the buyer would pay for shipping
01[17] <Grouper> no unfortunately.
[17] <Newtoreef> where you located?
01[17] <Grouper> That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
[17] <BCinYa> http://www.aquabid.com/
01[17] <Grouper> Not to my knowledge though.
01[17] <Grouper> There ya go.
[17] <BCinYa> like ebay for fish
01[17] <Grouper> Great
[17] <calmingcreations> thanks BCinYa
01[17] <Grouper> I'll have to check that place out.
01[17] <Grouper> Good stuff
01[17] <Grouper> Stay away from sharks...
[17] <calmingcreations> Newtoreef was that question *Where you located?* for me
01[17] <Grouper> Unless you're will to give them the space they need.
[17] <Newtoreef> yes.. Sorry
[17] <Newtoreef> Maybe look for some local clubs
[17] <calmingcreations> no a problem, in Northeastern Pennsylvania
[17] <Newtoreef> i se
01[17] <Grouper> A few sharks do OK though
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah I have a local club just thinking that might be something for to look into
[17] <Newtoreef> my friend has reef shark he hatched!! just loved the think
[17] <calmingcreations> Jim, sharks?? in reef or just fish only
01[17] <Grouper> Fish only...
01[17] <Grouper> A few species do fine if given the space...
[17] <Newtoreef> he has it in a reef tank..
01[17] <Grouper> The mottled cat shark from Australia for one.
01[17] <Grouper> Not a good idea John
[17] <Newtoreef> but thats obviouslty a temp situation
01[17] <Grouper> CAt sharks appear sedentary in the day
01[17] <Grouper> But they swim about a lot at night looking for food.
[17] <Snoball> CC..there's alarge club in Pittsburgh
01[17] <Grouper> They need free swimming space.
01[17] <Grouper> 200 gallons plus..mostly sand.
[17] <Newtoreef> yes hes gota large 280 hes gonna setup as folr
[17] <calmingcreations> yeah...I know many of the members, but Pitts about 5-6 hours from me
01[17] <Grouper> I've had Cat sharks and even a little Horn Shark in the past.
[17] <calmingcreations> Snoball you in Pittsburg
[17] <Snoball> I went to the convention last year
[17] <calmingcreations> Jim...those sharks what size tank do you need
01[17] <Grouper> 200 gallons plus for the smaller species.
[17] <calmingcreations> Snoball...I was there for a few hours on Saturday
01[17] <Grouper> They are quite hardy actually.
[17] <calmingcreations> k, are they a fish that needs to be kept alone
01[17] <Grouper> Not necessarily...
01[17] <Grouper> ...but you don't want fish like a Clown Trigger in there that will attempt to sample it.
01[17] <Grouper> Or smaller fish that it can eat.
01[17] <Grouper> You also need fish that will do well in that type of setup...very little or no rock.
01[17] <Grouper> Some structure on the center of a very deep (wide) tank works well.
01[17] <Grouper> More or less though, they should be avoided by most aquarists.
01[17] <Grouper> We already discussed Mandarin fishes.
01[17] <Grouper> Triggers....
01[17] <Grouper> No Queens...please
01[17] <Grouper> Do yourself a favor.
01[17] <Grouper> Don't be tempted by this fish
01[17] <Grouper> Unless again, you're willing to give it a 300 gallon tank of it's own.
01[17] <Grouper> I think we talked about B. undulatus.
01[18] <Grouper> The Clown Trigger is almost in the same boat...
01[18] <Grouper> ...but can make due with smaller quarters when adult..but will almost surely end up alone.
01[18] <Grouper> Keep in mind it's still a large fish, and will need a 200 gallon tank at least.
01[18] <Grouper> They also need a varied diet to maintain color.
01[18] <Grouper> Damselfishes...be carefull CC when stocking someones tank with these.
01[18] <Grouper> I love the little Dascyllus
01[18] <Grouper> But they are trouble when they get big...heartbreakers really
01[18] <Grouper> I love a group of them swimming around, but that doesn't last.
01[18] <Grouper> OK, CC had a question about beginners fish.
01[18] <Grouper> What was that question specifically?
01[18] <Grouper> You awake Ray?
01[18] <Grouper>
[18] <calmingcreations> I have several beginning reef and fish only aquarists who ask me about beginning fish
[18] <Snoball> yup
[18] <calmingcreations> I have been told that keeping a harder fish would be best for beginners as it is more forgiving
[18] <calmingcreations> also...many of the aquarist I know are looking at nano reefs no more than 30 gallons
01[18] <Grouper> You want fish that are hardy, but not extremely aggessive...
01[18] <Grouper> ...some clowns, dottybacks, firefish and basslets fit this well.
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah...my fisrt fish was a yellow tail damsel that was in a 2.5 gallon tank
01[18] <Grouper> Most dottyback are very aggressive actually, but P. fridmani is excellent.
01[18] <Grouper> On the RDO website, you'll see a nano forum...
01[18] <Grouper> There, matt has crated a list of nano fish...it's a very good refernce.
01[18] <Grouper> Neon goby's are great little fish.
01[18] <Grouper> Angels of the argi complex do very well in small tanks, I had one in a 7 gallon for a while.
01[18] <Grouper> I don't recommend that long term, but he was quite happy in there for a few months.
[18] <calmingcreations> ok...I think that the biggest problem I have is with people wanting to keep so many fish in such a small area
01[18] <Grouper> 20 gallons is good long term for those guys.
01[18] <Grouper> Dwarg groupers are another favorite
01[18] <Grouper> Serranus tigrinis, S.tortugarum...
01[18] <Grouper> Awesome nano fish.
[18] <calmingcreations> grouper in a nano
[18] <calmingcreations> ?
01[18] <Grouper> Yep
01[18] <Grouper> DWARF grouper
01[18] <Grouper> These guys only get a few inches
[18] <calmingcreations> what is there growth size range
[18] <calmingcreations> wow I love the look of groupers
[18] <calmingcreations> I'll have to check some of those out
01[18] <Grouper> 3-7"...but you won't see them get that big usually.
[18] <calmingcreations> cool
01[18] <Grouper> S. tortugarum is the best one I think for little tanks..
01[18] <Grouper> and you can keep several.
01[18] <Grouper> There
01[18] <Grouper> more than this actually, check that forum out.
[18] <calmingcreations> isn't that unusual for that species
[18] <calmingcreations> I will look into that
01[18] <Grouper> Banggai is another excellent nano fish.
01[18] <Grouper> cardinal that is
01[18] <Grouper> A great little fish.
[18] <Snoball> u don't see bengaiis as much anymore
01[18] <Grouper> Do not put Sixline wrasses in nano tanks.
[18] <calmingcreations> I do have several questions about water chemistry, but more on where I can get more education on it either in online courses or reading
01[18] <Grouper> or Four Lines, or any of those guys.
[18] <BCinYa> MACO has a water chem course
01[18] <Grouper> I'm good at maintaining my own chemisty, but not a good person to ask about that subject.
[18] <BCinYa> although none scheduled soon
01[18] <Grouper> Maybe later in the summer
[18] <calmingcreations> I'll keep my eyes peeled
[18] <calmingcreations> I saw a book from TLF that came out last year
01[18] <Grouper> Anything else you guys would like to discuss? Let's open it up.
[18] <Snoball> cowfish?
01[18] <Grouper> cute little guys, love those things when small
[18] <Newtoreef> not reef safe though right?
01[18] <Grouper> Hard to mix with other fish though, and they release toxins
01[18] <Grouper> not reef safe.
01[18] <Grouper> would be an intersting species tank.
01[18] <Grouper> All it takes is a fish harrasing it though...
01[18] <Grouper> ...and that might be all it takes
01[18] <Grouper> Toxin city.
01[18] <Grouper> Neat animals though.
[18] <Snoball> what kind of toxins
[18] <Newtoreef> I have a small 6 line in my 29 2.5'-3" how long before you think I should me him to my 140?
[18] <Newtoreef> move him
01[18] <Grouper> Not sure
01[18] <Grouper> ostracitoxin maybe
01[18] <Grouper> I might have that wrong
[18] <Newtoreef> seeems to be doing ok in the cube for now
01[18] <Grouper> Same thing with some box fish
01[18] <Grouper> from what i"ve seen, the cowfishes are hardy enough
01[18] <Grouper> By the way, regarding toxins
[18] <calmingcreations> what do you think of a cold water salt reef tank
01[18] <Grouper> Soapfishes can do the same thing, but I've never had issues with them.
01[18] <Grouper> I'm going to do a coldwater tidepool setup one of these days, but the main issues are...
01[18] <Grouper> ...power bill..chillers are expensive to buy, and expensive to run..
01[18] <Grouper> ...and getting the correct critters.
01[18] <Grouper> However, I look forward to doing this at some point...not reef though..tidepool biotope.
01[18] <Grouper> power will be more of an issue...
01[18] <Grouper> ...if you live in a hot climate.
01[18] <Grouper> It's more feasable for me now than when I lived in Cali
01[18] <Grouper> In cali the damn chiller would be on all the time.
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah...I'm interested in a reef if I do one I would keep it in the basement where it doesn't get above 60 degrees
[18] <calmingcreations> with solid limestone
[18] <Newtoreef> what type critters wuold you keep?
01[18] <Grouper> Great...lots of critters to choose from, but best live in an area where you can collect them...legally.
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah that can be a problem
[18] <calmingcreations> thats what I have heard
01[18] <Grouper> Skulpins, urchins, chitons, limpets, stars, snails, hermit crabs, anemones
01[18] <Grouper> rockfish
[18] <calmingcreations> just read an article in one of the magazines
[18] <Newtoreef> will do
01[18] <Grouper> good project...can
[18] <BCinYa> cc, if you ever get this together, I'll just walk down to the shore and pick up some stuff for you and ship them to ya
01[18] <Grouper> 'can't wiait to do it myself.
01[18] <Grouper> Yeah, I'd stick with the intertidal oganisms.
[18] <calmingcreations> thanks bc i'll keep that in mind
01[18] <Grouper> They are more tolerant of swings
01[18] <Grouper> Some intersting fish can be found there too.
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim...are there any cold water corals
01[18] <Grouper> Yes.
01[18] <Grouper> But I'm not very knowleadgeble on them.
01[18] <Grouper> There are some very beautiful freshwater coralamorphians.
[18] <calmingcreations> are they colorful or just your brown, tan, white
01[18] <Grouper> Hot pink
01[18] <Grouper> and other colors.
[18] <calmingcreations> nice
01[18] <Grouper> I haven't seen them in the intertidal though.
[18] <calmingcreations> k
01[18] <Grouper> Monteray Bay Aquarium has a nice display of them.
01[18] <Grouper> I have seen nice coraline, macros.
[18] <calmingcreations> I know that many of you have mentioned that you are thinking or already starting tanks
[18] <calmingcreations> that would be cool
[18] <calmingcreations> I have a supplier who offers great deals on tanks
01[18] <Grouper> The coldwater snails will not ship well.
[18] <calmingcreations> so if anyone is looking to purchase just let me know
01[18] <Grouper> Shore crags are tough as nails though, I'v kept them in tropical tanks.
01[18] <Grouper> crabs.
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim...is that because they get too warm
01[18] <Grouper> Yep, maybe sensetive to oxygen depletion as well.
01[18] <Grouper> They are both related
[18] <calmingcreations> do you have any recommendations on lighting requirements for fish only tanks
01[18] <Grouper> Anything will do, unless you're talking about fish that need lower light setups, like some antias for instance.
[18] <calmingcreations> I'm not a fan of the old watts per gallon equations
01[18] <Grouper> Aside from that, it doesn't matter.
01[18] <Grouper> Well that doesn't work for reef tanks, and is totally irrelevant for fish.
[18] <calmingcreations> so it has more to do with algae
01[18] <Grouper> Right, the fish don't care with the exceptions mentioned above.
01[18] <Grouper> The stock light fixture is fine for FO.
[18] <calmingcreations> cool that's helpful thanks
[18] <Newtoreef> what do you do for a fish only tank regarding alge?
01[18] <Grouper> Well, unless you're keeping puffers or triggers...
01[18] <Grouper> ...no reason why you can't have snails in there, just don't medicate.
[18] <Newtoreef> and when u want to keep triggers?
01[18] <Grouper> Magnets, or wiping by hand...which is always necessary to an extent anyway, even with snails.
[18] <Newtoreef> true
01[18] <Grouper> Water changes help
01[18] <Grouper> you need to keep the organics diluted of course.
[18] <BCinYa> to keep algae at bay you can also just keep the light level and phosphates low
[18] <calmingcreations> oh is there a suggestion you would have on fish only tanks for fish only
01[18] <Grouper> As far as fish?
01[18] <Grouper>
[18] <calmingcreations> yes would a canister filter be best
01[18] <Grouper> Live rock and a skimmer is still the way to go in my opinion.
01[18] <Grouper> Canisters are a great suppliment though...
01[18] <Grouper> ...for messy fish like triggers and groupers.
01[18] <Grouper> Almost a requirement.
[18] <Newtoreef> have you heard of right now?
01[18] <Grouper> and/or heavy water changes.
[18] <calmingcreations> do you have any suggestions on skimmers
01[18] <Grouper> Forget the OR in that.
01[18] <Grouper> I haven't used them all, but my Euroreef served me well.
01[18] <Grouper> CS-2 was what I had on my in-wall 150
[18] <calmingcreations> yeah Euroreef is a top of the line skimmer that is great
01[18] <Grouper> But I'm not necessarily current on what's out there at the moment.
01[18] <Grouper> I'll say this again, keep this in mind with messy fish...
01[18] <Grouper> Your filters are there as a stop-gap measure between water changes.
[18] <Newtoreef> I picked upa lifereef skimmer
01[18] <Grouper> Think of water changes are your primary tool for keeping organics in check.
[18] <Newtoreef> euroreef was my second choice
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim your thoughts on seahorses?
[18] <calmingcreations> good or bad should be kept in ocean
01[18] <Grouper> They do just fine if you give them what they need, little flow, no other tankmates, etc.
01[18] <Grouper> I've never bothered with them myself.
01[18] <Grouper> Not a good idea for the client though IMO.
[18] <BCinYa> does anyone know of a good website to help ID’ing different types of corals?
01[18] <Grouper> Just as a generalization.
[18] <Newtoreef> I was thinking of puting a few inmy 55 gal fuge.. Will they decimate my pods?
01[18] <Grouper> Do you have Bornemans book?
[18] <Newtoreef> seahourses I mean
[18] <calmingcreations> you mean Eric Bornemans
01[18] <Grouper> Yep
01[18] <Grouper> They won't decimate your pods
[18] <calmingcreations> he has great books
01[18] <Grouper> They don't move around fast enough to decimate anything.
[18] <Newtoreef> lol ok
[18] <calmingcreations> what are you looking for as corals, BC?
01[18] <Grouper> A good idea for a semi-FO. Live rock, whatever fish you want, and mushroom corals.
01[18] <Grouper> You don't need much light either, and you don't have to mess with Alk too much.
[18] <BCinYa> I have collected a few small frags over the last month or so and I can't get a specific ID on them where I've looked
[18] <Snoball> page called: coralsearch search page
01[18] <Grouper> SPS?
[18] <calmingcreations> do you have pics
01[18] <Grouper> Sometimes you get abberant growth forms with captive stuff, which makes them even hard to identify.
[18] <calmingcreations> I have a club that I am a member of that loves to identify, you can check them out at mountainvalleyreef.com
[18] <BCinYa> no pics as yet, it's on my list of things to do.
[18] <BCinYa> They a are mostly polyps and 'shrooms but I'm wondering what type.
01[18] <Grouper> Ahh...
01[18] <Grouper> There's a zillion different polyps...some of my favorite corals.
[18] <BCinYa> I have a friend at a store who just gives me the small frags that have broken off in the coral display tank
[18] <calmingcreations> check out this site...coralidea.com the gentleman who created this site will be at Macna in Atlanta this year
01[18] <Grouper> Add green stary polyps to my semi-FO comment above.,
01[18] <Grouper> Star polyps that is.
[18] <BCinYa> coralidea.com... that sounds about right!!
01[18] <Grouper> Since we're getting near the end...I need to ask...Is there anything you guys would change about this class.
01[18] <Grouper> Let me have it.
[18] <calmingcreations> there are quite a bit of 'shrooms who have not been identified
01[18] <Grouper> You guys were the first group
01[18] <Grouper> yep
[18] <BCinYa> 1 sec
01[18] <Grouper> Would you like to see the structure change in any way, etc
[18] <calmingcreations> well...I would suggestion holding it earlier, but that would be based on attendence
[18] <Newtoreef> if you are gong to change times or anything imporatant in the future after class has started be sure to send out an email.
[18] <Snoball> it's a full class now!
[18] <calmingcreations> I would also like to see it be a bit longer in length
[18] <Newtoreef> people dont always have time to check the forum
[18] <Snoball> more ppaperwork on fish compatability, stocking etc.
01[18] <Grouper> OK, so more written materials.
01[18] <Grouper> That was a balance that I've been struggling with a bit.
01[18] <Grouper> How much to write down, how much to cover in chat.
[18] <Snoball> yout photo's in your articles were great, didi you take them?
[18] <calmingcreations> an idea, but would take more time to create a work book style
[18] <BCinYa> I think the course content / subject matter was really good. The taxonomy stuff almost put me into a coma though!! It was good, just not my bag.
[18] <BCinYa> Not that you have any control over this but the text chat was slloooowww. I’ve been emailing Wade about different (more interactive & streamlined) options.
01[18] <Grouper> No, I got permission from different people to use their photos.
[18] <Snoball> my typing is stuttering tonite
[18] <BCinYa> I liked the articles
01[18] <Grouper> Thanks
01[18] <Grouper> Terry's articles are a great resource...which reminds me, I found some of his work that I couldn't locate before.
[18] <Newtoreef> maybe a video streamed face to face would be alot faster
[18] <Newtoreef> not so good for peep with out bradband
01[18] <Grouper> Yeah, then I have to perform too.
[18] <Snoball> get some mermaids in the class
[18] <Newtoreef> lol
01[18] <Grouper> there you go
01[18] <Grouper> I would need a theme song too.
01[18] <Grouper> And an Ed McMahon equivelnt.
[18] <Snoball> lol
01[18] <Grouper> About the written materials thing, I was struggling with writing too much down, then not having enough to fill the chat left over...but if there were say 8 poeple here, then I wouldn't have time to cover much if everyone was asking questions...so it's a tough balance to strike.
[18] <Newtoreef> bc are you going to go to that reef newwork dinner?
[18] <calmingcreations> Jim...I had a bit trouble with the reading but that has to do with my learning style and reading disability it would have been more helpful if the reading material could have been supplied in the beginning when you sign up so I could read it when I had time and not be stressed as I was more dependant on the chats
01[18] <Grouper> I think I can change it up a bit though.
01[18] <Grouper> We've had enough to talk about, so I think I can write more down and feel comfortable.
01[18] <Grouper> Good idea Joseph.
01[18] <Grouper> What about quizzes...don't bother?
01[18] <Grouper> That seems to have been the concesus I guess...LOL
[18] <Snoball> nah
[19] <BCinYa> the first (only) quiz was toooo hard
01[19] <Grouper> I think I'll compress the biology stuff a bit.
01[19] <Grouper> OK
[19] <calmingcreations> if you are unsure if you will be coving the material in chat or need more time for questions you could prepare it for the more question time, but then could just cut things out if you need more to chat about
01[19] <Grouper> I was trying to make sure I had a clear winner at the end hehe
[19] <Snoball> scott's books would be a good reference..but he has several volumes out now
01[19] <Grouper> Yeah I thought about a textbook of sorts.
[19] <calmingcreations> I personally would have been willing and expected to invest in reference books
[19] <BCinYa> actually, that'd be a good idea! get everyone to order the same book(s) and use them as texts / outline for the course. if there is a book that is appropriate.
[19] <Snoball> if there was one book that you could reccomend on fish Jim, what would it be?
01[19] <Grouper> If it was just ONE, then I'd say Scott's little Marine Fish expert guide.
01[19] <Grouper> A good little cross section there.
01[19] <Grouper> Second, I'm guessing would be his more comprehensive books that he's relased after that, but I haven't looked at them frankly.
[19] <calmingcreations> Jim will you be at the Macna in Atlanta?
01[19] <Grouper> Scott and I agree for the most part of the hardiness, etc of different fish.
01[19] <Grouper> Although not on tank sizes
01[19] <Grouper> I'm too strapped to make it to Macan...to much on my plate right now.
01[19] <Grouper> Macna
01[19] <Grouper> Maybe next time
01[19] <Grouper> I have to get this dang book finished
[19] <calmingcreations> not a problem would just like to make you sometime
01[19] <Grouper> Me too Joseph
[19] <Snoball> what book
01[19] <Grouper> I'm also supposedly a professional illustrator...so I should be drawing stuff...
01[19] <Grouper> ...I need more hours in the day
[19] <calmingcreations> don't we all
01[19] <Grouper> I think that PHoto class is a great idea Chris.
[19] <calmingcreations> yeah I like the idea of the photo class it didn't mention the teacher do you know who it is?
01[19] <Grouper> I remember trying to take pictures of my Mbuna tank, but they'd all just crowd in front of the camera.
[19] <BCinYa> me
[19] <calmingcreations> BC your the teacher
01[19] <Grouper> He will be
[19] <BCinYa> 1 sec
[19] <calmingcreations> cool...
01[19] <Grouper> BCinYa darkroom
[19] <calmingcreations> Jim...I have several ideas for my aquarium service company and would like to have a discussion with you
01[19] <Grouper> OK
[19] <calmingcreations> I know that you are very busy
[19] <Newtoreef> Well wifey siting there brow beating me with dinner ready guys I gotta go
01[19] <Grouper> NP, I can serve you better over email though.
01[19] <Grouper> See ya, thanks for coming@!
[19] <Newtoreef> its been fun
[19] <calmingcreations> and my schedule has been 14 hour days for the week and caughting up on sleep on the weekend
[19] <Snoball> cya
[19] <Newtoreef> ok bye aLL
