Hybrid?
- Thread starter Jacky W
- Start date
Jacky W":3v7zy8x3 said:Matt_":3v7zy8x3 said:Jacky W":3v7zy8x3 said:
I guess I don't.What do you want to ask?
Hm..
The shop owner said that it is a C. loriculus X ferrugatus, but I think that it is C. loriculus X shepardi or a reddish C. shepardi.....
That would be my best guess (and it really is just a guess) too. FWIW I could not find a lick of information regarding possible C. loriculus X ferrugatus hybridization.
Nice fish! This is most likely a Centropyge ferrugata/ C. loricula hybrid. These hybrids are documented and have a striking resemblance to C. shepardi in many ways, despite coming from a completely different region. I am unaware of documented hybrids between C. loricula and C. shepardi. Despite the amazing similarities between Shepard's and these hybrids, your fish appears to be more of a hybrid. There are many aberrations of color and pattern in C. shepardi, but those are rare in the small range of the species.
C. shepardi is only found in parts of Japan and the Marianas Islands (Guam and surrounding Islands). I regularly travel to Guam and as far as I know there are no regular exports from there at the moment, and it is highly unlikely that the fish was collected in the known range of C. shepardi in Japan. Shepard's are a common angel in Guam, and are known to hybridize there with coral beauties, which are VERY rare. In months of diving I've seen just one, and despite flame angels being documented from Guam I've never seen one.
So, chances are your fish came from a regularly exported area where C. loricula and C. ferrugata hybridize (I believe the Phillipines, but I'd have to check my references).
Did the store say where it came from? I'm going to forward the photo onto Rich Pyle and Jack Randall to get some feedback, perhaps the two most qualified people to look at it. Both are PhDs... Rich did his PhD thesis on the Centropyge genus and Jack is the 84 year old ichthyologist that described C. ferrugata and C. shepardi (along with more reef fish species than any ichthyologist in history... now over 700). C. loricula was described in the 1800s, even before Jack's time. Jack's still going strong and responds to e-mails faster than anyone I know...
I'll let you know their feedback... but I already see them asking the origin...
John
C. shepardi is only found in parts of Japan and the Marianas Islands (Guam and surrounding Islands). I regularly travel to Guam and as far as I know there are no regular exports from there at the moment, and it is highly unlikely that the fish was collected in the known range of C. shepardi in Japan. Shepard's are a common angel in Guam, and are known to hybridize there with coral beauties, which are VERY rare. In months of diving I've seen just one, and despite flame angels being documented from Guam I've never seen one.
So, chances are your fish came from a regularly exported area where C. loricula and C. ferrugata hybridize (I believe the Phillipines, but I'd have to check my references).
Did the store say where it came from? I'm going to forward the photo onto Rich Pyle and Jack Randall to get some feedback, perhaps the two most qualified people to look at it. Both are PhDs... Rich did his PhD thesis on the Centropyge genus and Jack is the 84 year old ichthyologist that described C. ferrugata and C. shepardi (along with more reef fish species than any ichthyologist in history... now over 700). C. loricula was described in the 1800s, even before Jack's time. Jack's still going strong and responds to e-mails faster than anyone I know...
I'll let you know their feedback... but I already see them asking the origin...
John
Brooklyn Johnny":1gsm0c85 said:No sweat Matt... I've dedicated a certain number of brain cells to knowing this hybrid, and this is probably the one time in my life I'll use 'em... thanks Jacky!
Do you have refernces for the ferrugata X loricula? Scott Michael's book mentions "reported" shepardi X loricula hybrids, and Kuiter-Debelius-Tanaka mentions that C. shepardi has been reported to hybridize with loricula in "Guam and other Micronesian waters".
Matt, the loricula/ ferrugata hybrid was documented and photographed by Kiyoshi Endoh, author of "Angelfishes of the World". I spoke with him for hours through every page of the book as he's personally photographed most of the fish, including the loricula/ ferrugata hybrid he saw come in from a Phillipines shipment. It's photograph is actually included in the section on C. shepardi due to their similarities.
Just going by the photo, the fish very well could be a shepardi/loricula hybrid, as these fish probably do hybridize in the wild... The only account I know of is from aquarium fish collector Fenton Walsh, who reported collecting two of these in Pohnpei years ago... this is probably the "other Micronesian waters" refernce in Kuiter-Debelius-Tanaka. Also, flames are found in Guam, and for years fish went through Hawaiian wholesalers from Guam, so there are probably a few other accounts, but I've never seen a photo or heard a first hand account.
The reason I think it's ferrugata/loricula is mainly due to the fact that nowhere in C. shepardi's range are there regular exports at the moment, and I think that we'd see regular C. shepardi before any hybrid came up. Also, the fact that the shop owner said it was ferrugata/loricula makes me think he was either fed that from the exporter (or importer/wholesaler), or he's a pretty astute LFS owner and deduced this by himself knowing the fish was from the Phillipines.
Anything is possible of course and knowing the fish's origin would tell us a great deal... either way, it's a special fish...
Just going by the photo, the fish very well could be a shepardi/loricula hybrid, as these fish probably do hybridize in the wild... The only account I know of is from aquarium fish collector Fenton Walsh, who reported collecting two of these in Pohnpei years ago... this is probably the "other Micronesian waters" refernce in Kuiter-Debelius-Tanaka. Also, flames are found in Guam, and for years fish went through Hawaiian wholesalers from Guam, so there are probably a few other accounts, but I've never seen a photo or heard a first hand account.
The reason I think it's ferrugata/loricula is mainly due to the fact that nowhere in C. shepardi's range are there regular exports at the moment, and I think that we'd see regular C. shepardi before any hybrid came up. Also, the fact that the shop owner said it was ferrugata/loricula makes me think he was either fed that from the exporter (or importer/wholesaler), or he's a pretty astute LFS owner and deduced this by himself knowing the fish was from the Phillipines.
Anything is possible of course and knowing the fish's origin would tell us a great deal... either way, it's a special fish...
Jacky W":2achmfri said:
No sweat Jacky. Are you going to buy this fish? If you do, or if you know who gets it, or if the fish dies, I'm sure the boys in Hawaii would love to study it. The aquarium industry and aquarium fish collector's supply a surprising amount of the fish for icthyologists... especially these oddballs.
Oh, and I just heard back from Jack Randall, and he said to him it looks like C. ferrugata/ loricula also.
John
Brooklyn Johnny":2sgxcxzh said:Matt, the loricula/ ferrugata hybrid was documented and photographed by Kiyoshi Endoh, author of "Angelfishes of the World". I spoke with him for hours through every page of the book as he's personally photographed most of the fish, including the loricula/ ferrugata hybrid he saw come in from a Phillipines shipment. It's photograph is actually included in the section on C. shepardi due to their similarities.
Just going by the photo, the fish very well could be a shepardi/loricula hybrid, as these fish probably do hybridize in the wild... The only account I know of is from aquarium fish collector Fenton Walsh, who reported collecting two of these in Pohnpei years ago... this is probably the "other Micronesian waters" refernce in Kuiter-Debelius-Tanaka. Also, flames are found in Guam, and for years fish went through Hawaiian wholesalers from Guam, so there are probably a few other accounts, but I've never seen a photo or heard a first hand account.
The reason I think it's ferrugata/loricula is mainly due to the fact that nowhere in C. shepardi's range are there regular exports at the moment, and I think that we'd see regular C. shepardi before any hybrid came up. Also, the fact that the shop owner said it was ferrugata/loricula makes me think he was either fed that from the exporter (or importer/wholesaler), or he's a pretty astute LFS owner and deduced this by himself knowing the fish was from the Phillipines.
Anything is possible of course and knowing the fish's origin would tell us a great deal... either way, it's a special fish...
You are my hero.
There's no way to tell conclusively, but I'd lean towards John's take. The natural range of variation within a given marine fish species is relatively narrow generally speaking. This is why I'd stop and think twice about this particular fish.
If we were looking at most freshwater species, then such an aberrant form wouldn't bat an eye.
If we were looking at most freshwater species, then such an aberrant form wouldn't bat an eye.
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