marine ich!?

[Anonymous]

Hi All - Can anyone give me some advice about how to handle a minor (so far) outbreak of ich in my main tank. My two Ocellaris clowns and my Cherub Angel are affected. I removed the clowns to the quarantine tank and have been treating them with frequent water changes, malachite greeen/quinine, and medicated food. One day they look better, the next day they look worse. It has been five days now. The Cherub is impossible to get out of the tank. Every morning he is spotty but my cleaner wrasse picks the ich off of him all day and by evening he is clean. I can't see any sign of anything on any other fish.

Will I ultimately have to remove all of my rock, put all of my fish in quarantine and let the tank lie dormant for a month? Or can this mess disappear with time? I have lowered the salinity in the main tank to 1.021 but I'm afraid to keep it that low much longer.

Any advice would be appreciated.

------------------
Laurie
_____________________

I came, I saw, I bought.

 

[Anonymous]

Here is a link that might help you:
http://www.ffexpress.com/topics/ich.htm

 

[Anonymous]

All of the fish are sick??

if so the tank is stressed you fidn the stressor the ich will go away
your killing the fish in that Q tank
those chemicals are trashing the immune systems and they will constantly get sick and better sick then better
they are better off in a good system like the reef
especially with the cleaner wrasse (he needs all the food he can get and parasites are thier favorite/best)

how old is the system??
new systems with live rock can cause stress from the noxious chems they leech like hydrogen sulfide
has anything recently been changed that could be the cause of tank wide stress
temp change?
fast salinity change?
ph crash? (test for a nightly crash)
recently change water?
doing a water change BTW would help a tank stressor unless the stress is from too much water being changed

ich is like the common cold it is caused by stress
fish are stressed enough in captivity so we can push the threshold pretty quick and they get sick fast

find the stress fix the fish
feeding good foods and boosting the immune system is your best bet
chemicals just hide the real problem

 

[Anonymous]

Dear Phishmom - No not all of the fish are sick. Only the 2 clowns who are in quarantine and the Cherub Angel who is still in the main tank.

Water change - 10%
Salinity - stable at 1.023
pH - stable at 8.4
Temperature stable at 78


This started right after a water change and tank cleaning (removal of hang on skimmer and filter, etc). So maybe it was stress from that. Other than that everything has been normal.

My fish all eat very well and are active - even the Cherub and there doesn't seem to be any reason for the stress UNLESS... I did have a green hammer coral which had apparently been damaged in shipment and developed an infection. The day before my water change I had taken it out and performed an iodine dip. When I put it back in the tank, it slimed like crazy. Pulled it right out and put it into the Q tank but maybe that slime in the water caused stress to some of the fish.

??

I don't know but it doesn't seem to be spreading - knock wood - and the Cherub doesn't seem unhappy with having a few specks on her fins for a couple of hours a day until the wrasse takes care of her.

------------------
Laurie
_____________________

I came, I saw, I bought.

 

[Anonymous]

Your salinity is too ow for corals at that emp
I would raise it a little
slowly
you will get alot of opinions on that level use your best judgement


removign the filter stressed the system a little
especially if it was a biological filter
the quick removal will stress the biofilter that is left and the levels spike a little
that can cause ich
once the balance comes back then the ich goes away
fish can live a while with mild ich cases


was the hang on skimmer a skimmer box and wet/dry filter or a powerfilter like a skilter
or was it a hang on skimmer itself
the skimmer removal also dropped the O2 levels
especially at night and that can cause stress too

HTH

 

[Anonymous]

Phishmom - I think you are right about cleaning everything causing a slight spike and resulting in an ich outbreak.

Fortunately, my only two fish in the tank who seem to be affected are the ones who allow the wrasse to clean them so it doesn't seem to be spreading.

 

[Anonymous]

Laurie

I had this problem until I grounded my tank
with a ground from the local fish store, the
power heads and heater etc, shocks the fish
I checked before ground and got 4.5 volts
after ground zero.


David

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Phishmon. Stress is probrably the cause of the ich outbreak. In my opinion, ich is everywhere (like a virus for us). In a reef which is healthy, fish fed well, stable conditions, etc..., I think the fish can easily fight it off. However, when a fish becomes stressed, it's immune system weakens, therefore the fish may be infected. I also agree that the Q tank is more of a stressior than a helper. You basically changed their whole environment.I would return the clowns to the main tank.
As far as copper goes...True, it does kill ich. How? By POISONING it. In my opinion, copper will also poison the fish. I know there are alot of copper cures out there. However, I never reccomend using them. Feeding a varied diet is the best cure for a sick fish.


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#reefs channel operator

 

[Anonymous]

Laurie,
If you are going to use a q-tank to treat the clowns, why not use copper? It is much more effective than malachite green. Not saying putting them back in the reef is the wrong way to go (agree the cleaner wrasse needs food, poor doomed guy) but if you Q then go all the way..that means copper.

Personally agree with previous posts that if it's a mild infection, you would do better putting clowns back in the reef and make sure the stressor is removed and water quality spot on. If infection severe, use copper (in q-tank of course).

Just my opinion.

good luck,

elvis

[This message has been edited by elvisdoc (edited 19 January 2000).]

 

[Anonymous]

Check out the post entitled "Garlic & Ich" for a different perspective...

 

[Anonymous]

RichK,

I thought that copper got rid of ich because it caused the fish to produce an excess of slime coating which causes it to be sloughed off. Not by actually poisoning the ich. Am I totally off base on this?

 

[Anonymous]

The link in one of the replies above mentions a neon goby or gold neon goby as a natural ich fighter. Is this the same fish as a goldenhead sleeper goby? If not, would a goldenhead sleeper goby be effective, or ineffective (or a target) with ich??

Central FL

 

[Anonymous]

I am currently facing an analogous problem, but fortunately limited to one fish, a purple tang, so far. I can't catch it. What I have done so far is to feed garlic oil-soaked food, I bought a UV sterilizer that MIGHT help with the reinfection cycles, and two cleaner shrimp. So far I have been most impressed by the cleaner shrimp. I just got them a couple of hours ago, equilibrated them, tossed them in the tank, and they actually crawl onto the purple tang to pick off the parasites.

That said, the root cause of this problem (mine and yours) is water quality, as stated above. I hope some of these suggestions help. Ihave also ordered a product called Kick Ich, which is allegedly reef safe, and it is supposed to arrive tomorrow. Now I have spent over $200 to save a $70 fish (and presumably the others, which are so far healthy). Clowns are usually pretty hardy, so thte fact that they have this is a BIG warning that something is wrong. Best of luck!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for the advice. I did move my clowns back into the reef tank because they were obviously more stressed in the Q tank. The tang and the cherub angel allow the cleaner shrimp and wrasse to pick off parasites so they have been in fine shape. When I moved the clowns back into the tank, with lights off, I felt the smaller one would not do well. He has never been completely comfortable since we got him about 6 weeks ago. Frequently kept his dorsal fin tucked an and would swim somewhat erratically. Well, the next morning he was gone. Found his litle corpse and removed it from the tank. The larger clown had some spots but she went into a cave with a cleaner shrimp and emerged spotless about an hour later. She stuck pretty close to that cave all through the day, venturing out only to grab at passing bits of food but I could sense she was becoming more calm. Late in the day she began exploring the tank and tried to nestle into my hairy mushroom. She didn't seem to notice her anemone was only about 8 inches away. When I fed a little later she swam back to get some food and literally bumped into her anemone. I swear if fish could register surprise on their faces she would have done so. She hasn't left it since and is still spot-free as are all of my other fishies. Keeping my fingers crossed, feeding vitamin supplemented foods, and maintaining excellent water quality.

By the way, I did read the threads about garlic oil and Kick-Ich. I have ordered the Kick-Ich just in case things ever get really bad in there and I did try the garlic oil but most of my fish turned up their noses and I had to fish around with a net to get all of the food out. I guess they're just too finicky.

------------------
Laurie
_____________________

I came, I saw, I bought.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, in my experience, ich has been a problem in some of my communities over the years, and I really feel that it is not ubiquitous in all reeftanks; rather, it is common, but needs to be carried in by a host like any other parasite. Fish are often susceptible not simply due to their immune systems, but the thickness of their skin and the amount of mucous they secrete. Clowns, groupers, hawkfish, and morays rarely get ich for this reason unless it is very concentrated by other active infections in a closed system. It is the concentration of the organism in a aquarium that makes it a killer, not a fishes depressed immune system. In the ocean, ich organisms are dispersed, but in a tank, they and all their progeny are preying solely on your fish. Their immune system can no better repel the organism than you can intestinal worms after being innoculated.
Copper is toxic to invertebrates, and this is the way most effective ich treatments work. Any exposure of liverock, live filter beds, and inverts to copper is very detrimental, and the free copper will bind to substrate and leach out of the system later, so move all sick fish to quarentine and save your main tank, also replace any porous substrate that has been exposed to the copper medication. Keep it free of fish at a high temp (80 degrees F) for 6 weeks, then return to normal and re-add fish.
I will concede that I have had some infections remain dormant for up to 6 months in a reef tank with no fish, but I think dormancy is different with different species of cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium.
Remember, ich is a parasite, and like any other parasite, without a host, it will die. This only sure fire way to cure a reef of ich is to keep it fish free (even those uneffected!) for 6 weeks or more. These creatures only prey on fish.
Squid

 

[Anonymous]

I think I am starting to get the upper hand in my case; although it is way too soon to declare victory. I am sorry about the little clown. My fish seem to prefer the galic oil-soaked food to the regular food. I have found that my tang in particular will scarf down huge quantities of garlic-soaked Formula 1 flakes. I have also soaked frozen (then thawed) Formula 1 in garlic oil and fed that, but the other fish seem to take more than their share, so I alternate between the two to make sure the tang is getting enough. I would defiinitely experiment more wiht the garlic oil-soaked food. At the very least it is harmless, and may very well help.

Good luck!