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Anonymous
Guest
its ben said that you can take out the bio balls in a reef sytem,i have a 75 gallon reef tank with 112 pounds of live rock and with 60 pounds of out mell size crushed coral,i like fish to so i plan on stocking it heavy with fish to,the sytem is only 3 mounths old would it be safe for me to take the balls out ,becaus i would realy like to get ride of them,also can i seed my crushed coral ike thay do with live sand,thanks
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Anonymous
Guest
Chuck them bioballs!!!
Take it easy with adding fish tho...your tank is young, try not to be overzealous...
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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs
Reef Obsessed Surfer
Take it easy with adding fish tho...your tank is young, try not to be overzealous...
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Dan
Minotaur15 on #reefs
Reef Obsessed Surfer
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Anonymous
Guest
Get rid of the balls, the first year or so you need to be slow with fish though.
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Anonymous
Guest
You have MORE than enough Live Rock to sustain as many fish as you could probably wedge into it if there is any room for water left =) The denitrifying bacteria will only colonize to the level of 'food' produced. You have way more surface area with the rock alone than you will ever need in that tank. Removing the bioballs will have no negative effect on this tank.
Tom
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http://www.bit-net.com/~tjotoole/
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http://www.inlandreef.com/
Tom
------------------
Visit Tom's Reef
http://www.bit-net.com/~tjotoole/
proud to be an associate of
Inland Reef Aquaria, Nashua, NH
http://www.inlandreef.com/
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Anonymous
Guest
I have just last week....removed my balls. Everything seems to be doing just fine. My big bad boy hermit now is confined to solitary confinement down there.
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Anonymous
Guest
Okay, so the only reasoning I can think of to remove them is that I've heard that Bio-balls in a sump may trap food waste and thus the filter can turn into a nitrate factory.
Is it the food and nitrate issue, or why would you want to remove the balls? I feel the water trickling over them would help with gas exchange and oxygenate the water more.
While I know my 200#'s of rock has enough surface area, why not keep the bio media?
Still got my balls (unlike my dog)
Reefster in Seattle.
135 gallon play pen
Is it the food and nitrate issue, or why would you want to remove the balls? I feel the water trickling over them would help with gas exchange and oxygenate the water more.
While I know my 200#'s of rock has enough surface area, why not keep the bio media?
Still got my balls (unlike my dog)
Reefster in Seattle.
135 gallon play pen
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Anonymous
Guest
thanks to all whith the replies ,i thank im going to slowly remove the balls and see what happends , my local fish store told me to keep the balls if im going to stock heavy with fishbut i thank 8 fish is enough, right know i have a leather coral,frog spown,sun coral,and a plate. my lfs is hawks aquatics he has good prices hes searching for me a green birds nest.www.hawksaquatics check it out.
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Anonymous
Guest
Your local fish store doesn't understand the concept thats at least clear. Put it this way, for the sake of the argument I will use the bacterial colony in the term of gallons, say at your desired bioload you will need 1 gallon of bacteria to handle the waste. The bacteria will only breed up to this point then stop.
You first attempt to filter this tank with a single Penguin 125 biowheel. This is the equivalent of trying to pour this entire 1 gallon bucket into an 8 oz glass. You'll only end up with 8 oz of bacteria and thats not enough to handle the bioload.
So you add about 40 pounds of live rock, which is basically pouring this 1 gallon of bacteria into a 1.25 gallon bucket. VIOLA! You have a full 1 gallon of bacteria and a little room to spare.
But you don't like the looks of the tank and want to fill it up some more, so you add another 50 pounds of Live Rock. You have taken this 1 gallon of bacteria and put them in a 5 gallon bucket. THe volume hasn't changed has it? it's just less concentrated.
Now toss in some bioballs, you now have taken the 1 gallon of bacteria and pour it from the 5 gallon bucket into a 55 gallon drum. Volume still hasn't changed, its just less concentrated.
Now remember that the bacteria won't grow to fill the new container, there isn't enough 'food' to allow them to do so. So you are now at the point where you have a ridiculous amount of filtration.
Cons? Nitrates can be an issue because they will be more efficient with the bioballs producing nitrates at a rate the nitrate bacteria can't keep up with them. Remember bioballs don't provide any place for no3 reducing bacteria to live, they must have anaerobic conditions.
This isn't a short term problem it's a long term one. IN the long term you are going to be battling algae problems. Aeration is rarely and I do mean rarely a problem with marine tanks, especially with protein skimmers running.
Tom
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Visit Tom's Reef
http://www.bit-net.com/~tjotoole/
proud to be an associate of
Inland Reef Aquaria, Nashua, NH
http://www.inlandreef.com/
You first attempt to filter this tank with a single Penguin 125 biowheel. This is the equivalent of trying to pour this entire 1 gallon bucket into an 8 oz glass. You'll only end up with 8 oz of bacteria and thats not enough to handle the bioload.
So you add about 40 pounds of live rock, which is basically pouring this 1 gallon of bacteria into a 1.25 gallon bucket. VIOLA! You have a full 1 gallon of bacteria and a little room to spare.
But you don't like the looks of the tank and want to fill it up some more, so you add another 50 pounds of Live Rock. You have taken this 1 gallon of bacteria and put them in a 5 gallon bucket. THe volume hasn't changed has it? it's just less concentrated.
Now toss in some bioballs, you now have taken the 1 gallon of bacteria and pour it from the 5 gallon bucket into a 55 gallon drum. Volume still hasn't changed, its just less concentrated.
Now remember that the bacteria won't grow to fill the new container, there isn't enough 'food' to allow them to do so. So you are now at the point where you have a ridiculous amount of filtration.
Cons? Nitrates can be an issue because they will be more efficient with the bioballs producing nitrates at a rate the nitrate bacteria can't keep up with them. Remember bioballs don't provide any place for no3 reducing bacteria to live, they must have anaerobic conditions.
This isn't a short term problem it's a long term one. IN the long term you are going to be battling algae problems. Aeration is rarely and I do mean rarely a problem with marine tanks, especially with protein skimmers running.
Tom
------------------
Visit Tom's Reef
http://www.bit-net.com/~tjotoole/
proud to be an associate of
Inland Reef Aquaria, Nashua, NH
http://www.inlandreef.com/
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Anonymous
Guest
reefster, The reason that bioball are called nitrate factories is because ther is no way for bio balls to convert nitrate into a harmless gas. they do a good job of converting amonia to nitrite- nitrite to nitrate- but thats where it stops (and builds). for nitrate to be converted, it needs to go through anarobic (no oxygen) conditions, such as in a deep sand bed or deep within your rocks
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Rod
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Rod
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Anonymous
Guest
Okay, I've been following this thread for a while (and other, related threads), and I have a confession: I run a wet/dry WITH bio balls on my reeftank. There, I said it, and man do I feel better coming clean....
Actually, I don't have a problem with nitrates. They're very close to being undetectable. I also have quite a bit of live rock, and a livesand/crushed coral/reef rubble "sand bed" that's teeming with critters of all sorts (and I'm sure de-nitrification occurs in these places; why wouldn't it??? Otherwise, I'd have a constant build-up over time and I don't).
I've even toyed with the idea of putting some sand in the bottom of the wet dry, but haven't tried it yet. I do skim the tank fairly regularly, but I just haven't had the problems that everyone talks about or assumes exist. And I feed the hell outta this tank (green water; baby brine; frozen foods for the shrimp, fish and hermits). Just my experience. Everything is doing extremely well (to the point where a green bubble-tip recently split; mushrooms, polyps, and colonial anenones are exploding; xenia is regularly pruned and sold back to LFS), so I'm gonna keep on keeping on and not change a good thing.
I also use supplements (NO, NOT Coral Vital....) and get good, measurable results with them, but that's another story for the next confessional....
Go with what works for you, and not what "accepted wisdom" happens to be at the moment. That's def. true in this hobby probably more than any other.
Scott
(who's currently donning an asbestos suit...).
Actually, I don't have a problem with nitrates. They're very close to being undetectable. I also have quite a bit of live rock, and a livesand/crushed coral/reef rubble "sand bed" that's teeming with critters of all sorts (and I'm sure de-nitrification occurs in these places; why wouldn't it??? Otherwise, I'd have a constant build-up over time and I don't).
I've even toyed with the idea of putting some sand in the bottom of the wet dry, but haven't tried it yet. I do skim the tank fairly regularly, but I just haven't had the problems that everyone talks about or assumes exist. And I feed the hell outta this tank (green water; baby brine; frozen foods for the shrimp, fish and hermits). Just my experience. Everything is doing extremely well (to the point where a green bubble-tip recently split; mushrooms, polyps, and colonial anenones are exploding; xenia is regularly pruned and sold back to LFS), so I'm gonna keep on keeping on and not change a good thing.
I also use supplements (NO, NOT Coral Vital....) and get good, measurable results with them, but that's another story for the next confessional....
Go with what works for you, and not what "accepted wisdom" happens to be at the moment. That's def. true in this hobby probably more than any other.
Scott
(who's currently donning an asbestos suit...).
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Anonymous
Guest
Scott,
If it is working for you, then great, I wouldn't change either, but I would keep an eye out on the nitrates. Nitrates shouldn't be zero anyway, they should be less than 5ppm but not zero as many corals especially clams uptake nitrates for food. This usually means feed more.
Basically what I'm most concerned is, the new hobbiest and the either ignorant or unscrupulous LFS that tries to sell a wet/dry to a reefer. It's not needed and is a waste of money. Same goes with UV and Ozone.
Tom
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Visit Tom's Reef
http://www.bit-net.com/~tjotoole/
proud to be an associate of
Inland Reef Aquaria, Nashua, NH
http://www.inlandreef.com/
If it is working for you, then great, I wouldn't change either, but I would keep an eye out on the nitrates. Nitrates shouldn't be zero anyway, they should be less than 5ppm but not zero as many corals especially clams uptake nitrates for food. This usually means feed more.
Basically what I'm most concerned is, the new hobbiest and the either ignorant or unscrupulous LFS that tries to sell a wet/dry to a reefer. It's not needed and is a waste of money. Same goes with UV and Ozone.
Tom
------------------
Visit Tom's Reef
http://www.bit-net.com/~tjotoole/
proud to be an associate of
Inland Reef Aquaria, Nashua, NH
http://www.inlandreef.com/
A
Anonymous
Guest
Tom,
We both know there's a lot of dealers out there like that, and I agree that you can't know enough about this hobby before you jump in. I kept the wet/dry when I switched over from a fish-only tank 8 years ago. Actually, switch is probably the wrong word; evolve was more like it (although "switch" def. applies to the day that I finally yanked that damn undergravel filter).
I fugured the wet dry was a good way to increase the volume of my system, while serving as a place for heaters, skimmers, and dosing the tank with makeup water and additives as needed. It originally had polyester/plastic netting inside, but I switched to bio-balls and bio-pak. The floss material was a mess, and constantly clogged. No problems since then, and we're going on 5-6 years with most of the corals in the tank. I can't remember the last time I lost anything other than a snail (and I hope the reef gods don't hear me boasting).
I actually talked a couple out of buying fish at a local Pet Supermarket a few mos. ago. Seems they were buying a tank the same day, and the sales-kid was selling them big, expensive saltwater angelfish to take home to put in their new tank. Also talked them out of the complete package set-up they were going to buy (lots of junk), and showed them what they really needed. Sales-kid was pretty mad, but I wish someone would've taken me under their wing when I started. Would've been cheaper and less painful. Fortunately, I used to deal with John Tullock at his store here in Knoxville, and he was always a great help to a newbie.
Keep disseminating the information. This board's a great resource.
Scott
We both know there's a lot of dealers out there like that, and I agree that you can't know enough about this hobby before you jump in. I kept the wet/dry when I switched over from a fish-only tank 8 years ago. Actually, switch is probably the wrong word; evolve was more like it (although "switch" def. applies to the day that I finally yanked that damn undergravel filter).
I fugured the wet dry was a good way to increase the volume of my system, while serving as a place for heaters, skimmers, and dosing the tank with makeup water and additives as needed. It originally had polyester/plastic netting inside, but I switched to bio-balls and bio-pak. The floss material was a mess, and constantly clogged. No problems since then, and we're going on 5-6 years with most of the corals in the tank. I can't remember the last time I lost anything other than a snail (and I hope the reef gods don't hear me boasting).
I actually talked a couple out of buying fish at a local Pet Supermarket a few mos. ago. Seems they were buying a tank the same day, and the sales-kid was selling them big, expensive saltwater angelfish to take home to put in their new tank. Also talked them out of the complete package set-up they were going to buy (lots of junk), and showed them what they really needed. Sales-kid was pretty mad, but I wish someone would've taken me under their wing when I started. Would've been cheaper and less painful. Fortunately, I used to deal with John Tullock at his store here in Knoxville, and he was always a great help to a newbie.
Keep disseminating the information. This board's a great resource.
Scott
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Anonymous
Guest
Hmmmm...bio balls. I think LFS owners like to sell these to reef keepers because they bought a bunch of this crap in the late 80's early 90's and they just can't get rid of it. The fact is reef keepers just don't need bio balls to have a successful thriving reef. If you already have them, then there you should discard them, if you have at least 1 lb. live rock per gallon. The problem is that many times, especially if your sump tank is a trickle filter, those bio balls are helping to prevent bubbles from forming due to water splashing down in the sump. These bubbles are then pumped into your tank. Everyone knows that bubbles in the tank = bad scoobies. If this is the case then just keep the balls and remember to keep them clean. The main problem is when they become a holding place for waste, which is then a nitrate factory for the tank. All in all, bio balls = pain in the ass. So if you're buying a new sump for a reef tank, get one without a trickle filter; one that has space for important stuff like a good skimmer, a heater, a chiller coil, etc.
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Anonymous
Guest
Let me see if I have this right. I have a 50 gallon tank with 110 lbs. of live rock, two fish(for now) a yellow tang and a blue devil damsel, 22 asst. hard/soft corals, water parameters near perfect and a home made wet/dry with bio-balls. My over flow has a huge chunk of low density foam for initial mechanical filtration and the top of my wet/dry has polyester floss for secondary filtration then the water disperses through the bio-balls and is returned to the tank via an Eheim 1060. Are the bio-balls too much and do I have way too much live rock? 'Cause I'm sure that there is no possible way that there is 50 gallons of water left in my entire setup.
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Anonymous
Guest
To ball or not to ball.........
If what you run is working, don't mess with it. I'm my tanks own worst enemy by fussing fussing fussing. Kinda like killing a plant by too much care and overwatering it. DON'T BE ASHAMED TO ADMIT YOU LIKE BALLS. As has been stated, they do create an aerobic environment for amonia->nitrite conduction, and also by having an anaerobic environment (sand-bed) you can also keep nitrates in check. It all comes down to surface area and bio-load. I figure I'll keep my balls AND run a sand bed for the best of both worlds.
Heapster Reefster
135 gallon playpen
Seattle
If what you run is working, don't mess with it. I'm my tanks own worst enemy by fussing fussing fussing. Kinda like killing a plant by too much care and overwatering it. DON'T BE ASHAMED TO ADMIT YOU LIKE BALLS. As has been stated, they do create an aerobic environment for amonia->nitrite conduction, and also by having an anaerobic environment (sand-bed) you can also keep nitrates in check. It all comes down to surface area and bio-load. I figure I'll keep my balls AND run a sand bed for the best of both worlds.
Heapster Reefster
135 gallon playpen
Seattle
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Anonymous
Guest
well since i started this question i better keep posting on it ,i dont have a sand bed ,thought about putting one in the sump but thats but like i said i thought about it,what i do have is 112 pounds of lr and 60 pounds of oat meal size argonite in a 75 gallon tank ,iremoved half of my balls on monday ,today friday i check out the water everythang checked ok nitrats checked in around 6 or 7 so i took out the rest of my balls im going to keep an eye on it to see what happens with my fingures crossed,im a newbie to the saltwater reef stuff so any info is very helpfull. and i was thanking about activaded carbon ,is it a good thang or not for reef?
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Anonymous
Guest
Jedidog
You have so so much live rock in there that it can handle 'nutrients' from just about any fish that can still turn around.
However you must add livestock very slowly so that the bacteria will have a chance to build up and respond (multiply).
I fear that the crushed coral is too large.
..
1 The sand used in deep sand bed theory is very fine and dense to support the tiny microscopic critters that are part of the denitrifying chain. Larger critters that ingest and poop out the sand may also complain. Check before you buy detrivores. These are not big problems because you have so much rock.
2 The severe problem is that debris can get caught up and make pockets that putrify when covered over by digging. Watch for this and adjust your circulation or vacuum it up. Don't forget that critters trying to clean up will be a different set from all that rock.
Carbon is your friend. When anything goes badly do a water change and get the carbon in there. Many small changes are better than large changes. Always make changes slowly in whatever you do to a tank. Even suddenly adding alot of carbon to a long dirty tank can be difficult because the water gets so clear that some things burn and die. If this happens to you then you have not been listening to the very loud 'GO SLOW' advice that everyone here learns too late.
Use the carbon as needed but constant use might strip the water so just strike a balance.
You have so much in a 3 month old tank that I am concerned. Do try to spend more time watching your tank and learning the quirks of your critters. Watch them do the nesting for a while.
Pam
You have so so much live rock in there that it can handle 'nutrients' from just about any fish that can still turn around.
I fear that the crushed coral is too large.
1 The sand used in deep sand bed theory is very fine and dense to support the tiny microscopic critters that are part of the denitrifying chain. Larger critters that ingest and poop out the sand may also complain. Check before you buy detrivores. These are not big problems because you have so much rock.
2 The severe problem is that debris can get caught up and make pockets that putrify when covered over by digging. Watch for this and adjust your circulation or vacuum it up. Don't forget that critters trying to clean up will be a different set from all that rock.
Carbon is your friend. When anything goes badly do a water change and get the carbon in there. Many small changes are better than large changes. Always make changes slowly in whatever you do to a tank. Even suddenly adding alot of carbon to a long dirty tank can be difficult because the water gets so clear that some things burn and die. If this happens to you then you have not been listening to the very loud 'GO SLOW' advice that everyone here learns too late.
You have so much in a 3 month old tank that I am concerned. Do try to spend more time watching your tank and learning the quirks of your critters. Watch them do the nesting for a while.
Pam
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